Why does Obi-Wan's Lightsaber shrink in Episode IV

[Mr. T]

In the episode IV lightsaber fight with Obi-Wan and Darth Vader, when I was watching it I noticed that part way through Obi-Wan's lightsaber shrinks significantly in size, to the point where it looks like a tiny spark that he's fighting with at one point. Is there an explanation for this? Was he taunting Vader? Did Vader somehow use the force to diminish his lightsaber? Or did Obi-Wan forget to recharge its batteries before fighting

[Mr. T]

Aww damnit, can a mod fix the title from "Shring" to "shrink"

[Crazedwraith]

you can edit it yourself if you like.

Theres no expalation its just an SFX gaffe that noone bothered to fix.

[Molyneux]

In the episode IV lightsaber fight with Obi-Wan and Darth Vader, when I was watching it I noticed that part way through Obi-Wan's lightsaber shrinks significantly in size, to the point where it looks like a tiny spark that he's fighting with at one point. Is there an explanation for this? Was he taunting Vader? Did Vader somehow use the force to diminish his lightsaber? Or did Obi-Wan forget to recharge its batteries before fighting

I think that you may be thinking of when Obi-wan's saber is seen foreshortened...it's pointing almost straight at the camera, so it looks a lot shorter. There was also an FX mistake when it's pointing *right* at the camera where they forgot to paint in the glow, so you can see the transparent-stick-with-a-lightbulb-at-the-end they were using as a prop.

[Mr. T]

you can edit it yourself if you like.

What a nifty feature, never noticed it before, thanks

[Ace Pace]

A stupid mistake, I'm suprised it wasn't fixed in the DVDs.

[Alan Bolte]

"Stupid mistake" and the DVDs seems to be a common combination.

[Kenoshi]

In Episode IV the lightsaber props consisted of a wooden stick with three sides mounted in a motorized grip. The sticks were painted with a reflective paint...the same sort of stuff that is used to make the reflective tape that bicyclists wear at night so they show up in your headlights. It glows very brightly if a direct light is shined on them. The lightsaber-sticks were rotated by a motor inside the grip to give them a shimmering fluorescent look which worked for the most part; the light that illuminated them was off camera.

I don't think they even painted in the glow effects in Episode IV, they just relied on the optical effect which worked for the most part but had two big problems: the wooden sticks were brittle and often broke; and because the reflective paint only reflects light that is shining directly on it, the effect doesn't look so good when the blade is angled away from the camera...such as when Obi Wan had it pointed towards the camera. The painted tip of the blade showed up just fine, but the reflection on the blade's length was lacking. There was also a matter of the power cord that provided power for the motor in the grip....there's one shot where it's visible running from the end of Obi Wan's lightsaber and going right up his sleeve.

It was in all the other films that they used a used a simple plastic rod set in a non-motorized grip and rotoscoped in the glow effect in post production.

[Darth Wong]

The fight choreography was also done using the assumption that lightsabre blades were rather heavy, so you should swing it around like a broadsword instead of a light foil. Needless to say, fight choreography in other movies (particularly the prequels) is dramatically different.

George Lucas once commented that this is caused by Ben Kenobi's age, but with all due respect to Mr. Lucas, this explanation sucks. Ben Kenobi is much younger than Count Dooku, as many others have pointed out. Perhaps there are different ways of "tuning" a lightsabre, and you can deliberately adjust the sabre to make it more powerful and give it more momentum, at the cost of the speed with which you can wield it.

I'm not sure why one would want to do this, but perhaps someone more knowledgeable about swordfighting could offer some suggestions.

[LaserRifleofDoom]

Also, we see in the visual dictionary that lightsabers have 'length adjustment knobs' on them. Presumably they are almost always at maximum length. There might have been a reason for Kenobi to shorten his temporarily, though this intance is certainly an FX gaffe.

[Ford Prefect]

On the illustrious Darth Wong's point, while it is more difficult to duel with a heavy blade, that heavy blade will be harder to defend against. You try blocking someone with a claymore and you'll get driven to your knees, or knocked to the side, or your arm will be numbed. Of course, Vader doesn't have real arms.

[Kenoshi]

The fight choreography was also done using the assumption that lightsabre blades were rather heavy, so you should swing it around like a broadsword instead of a light foil. Needless to say, fight choreography in other movies (particularly the prequels) is dramatically different.

George Lucas once commented that this is caused by Ben Kenobi's age, but with all due respect to Mr. Lucas, this explanation sucks. Ben Kenobi is much younger than Count Dooku, as many others have pointed out. Perhaps there are different ways of "tuning" a lightsabre, and you can deliberately adjust the sabre to make it more powerful and give it more momentum, at the cost of the speed with which you can wield it.

I'm not sure why one would want to do this, but perhaps someone more knowledgeable about swordfighting could offer some suggestions.

I remember that now...on the DVD featurette they make mention of this....that the original idea was that the lightsaber blades contained so much energy that they could only be successfully controlled by having both hands on the hilt and fighting with a more deliberate style. Of course as the dueling choreography improved in the later films the duels got faster and more stylish.

To rationalize this it could be that Obi Wan and Darth Vader chose a slower, more powerful fighting style so that, from Vader's POV, he could savor his last battle with his old master and, from Obi Wan's POV, he could stall for time so that Luke and company could make it back to the Falcon.

[Kurgan]

In Episode IV the lightsaber props consisted of a wooden stick with three sides mounted in a motorized grip. The sticks were painted with a reflective paint...the same sort of stuff that is used to make the reflective tape that bicyclists wear at night so they show up in your headlights. It glows very brightly if a direct light is shined on them. The lightsaber-sticks were rotated by a motor inside the grip to give them a shimmering fluorescent look which worked for the most part; the light that illuminated them was off camera.

I don't think they even painted in the glow effects in Episode IV, they just relied on the optical effect which worked for the most part but had two big problems: the wooden sticks were brittle and often broke; and because the reflective paint only reflects light that is shining directly on it, the effect doesn't look so good when the blade is angled away from the camera...such as when Obi Wan had it pointed towards the camera. The painted tip of the blade showed up just fine, but the reflection on the blade's length was lacking. There was also a matter of the power cord that provided power for the motor in the grip....there's one shot where it's visible running from the end of Obi Wan's lightsaber and going right up his sleeve.

It was in all the other films that they used a used a simple plastic rod set in a non-motorized grip and rotoscoped in the glow effect in post production.

It's true the effects in ANH are inconsistent and have always been so. Anakin's blade in Ben Kenobi's Hut and Ben Kenobi's saber throughout the film are "painted" with a bug fuzzy blue (that was toned down to a thinner beam with no "bulge" in the center for the new DVD's). Vader's blade as a neon orange color (as if they just painted a solid color over the glowing stick). Luke's practice on the Falcon was all with the rotating white thing. Then there were the instances of uncolored gaffes like Ben's blade "fizzling out" in that one shot and Vader's "white saber" as the doors close after killing Kenobi. The DVD's were supposed to make the sabers uniform and how they were "supposed to look" with the rest of the trilogy in mind. Unfortunately they didn't quite do the job (and managed to make the sabers in the other two movies look worse).

I agree about the "sabers are heavy" explanation. That's what Lucas says in the DVD commentary, ditto about the "these are old Jedi, having a hard fight." The "sabers are heavy" was abandoned as early as ESB when we have Vader doing lots of one handed stuff (he's just really strong, maybe?).

PS: Didn't the motorized thingies have a wire that went up the person's sleeve? I swear there's a frame or two where you can see the wire going up Alec Guiness's sleeve during the Vader fight, and that also may explain the stiffness of the movements (to avoid getting tangled or messing up the mechanisms).

Sort of like how the final battle Highlander was filmed with the swords attached to car batteries to achieve the "sparking" effect when the blades clashed (and it shocked the actors quite a few times). Things like that can limit the way the actors move or how the scenes are shot.

[Kurgan]

Also, we see in the visual dictionary that lightsabers have 'length adjustment knobs' on them. Presumably they are almost always at maximum length. There might have been a reason for Kenobi to shorten his temporarily, though this intance is certainly an FX gaffe.

Interstingly enough the VD's for the prequels give one of the random knobs on the sabers the label "blade length adjust." Apparently though a similar knob for the OT sabers is labelled "blade intensity adjust."

Uh yeah.. so this explains why sometimes the blades look like a frozen turbolaser (solid color) and other times have a white "core"

Nah...

[Kenoshi]

It's true the effects in ANH are inconsistent and have always been so. Anakin's blade in Ben Kenobi's Hut and Ben Kenobi's saber throughout the film are "painted" with a bug fuzzy blue (that was toned down to a thinner beam with no "bulge" in the center for the new DVD's). Vader's blade as a neon orange color (as if they just painted a solid color over the glowing stick). Luke's practice on the Falcon was all with the rotating white thing. Then there were the instances of uncolored gaffes like Ben's blade "fizzling out" in that one shot and Vader's "white saber" as the doors close after killing Kenobi. The DVD's were supposed to make the sabers uniform and how they were "supposed to look" with the rest of the trilogy in mind. Unfortunately they didn't quite do the job (and managed to make the sabers in the other two movies look worse).

I agree about the "sabers are heavy" explanation. That's what Lucas says in the DVD commentary, ditto about the "these are old Jedi, having a hard fight." The "sabers are heavy" was abandoned as early as ESB when we have Vader doing lots of one handed stuff (he's just really strong, maybe?).

PS: Didn't the motorized thingies have a wire that went up the person's sleeve? I swear there's a frame or two where you can see the wire going up Alec Guiness's sleeve during the Vader fight, and that also may explain the stiffness of the movements (to avoid getting tangled or messing up the mechanisms).

Sort of like how the final battle Highlander was filmed with the swords attached to car batteries to achieve the "sparking" effect when the blades clashed (and it shocked the actors quite a few times). Things like that can limit the way the actors move or how the scenes are shot.

I didn't know that about Highlander. I've wondered how they did the sparking effect.

In the scene where Obi Wan is confronting Vader and activates his saber you can see the wire running from his saber hilt up his sleeve.

The DVDs cleaned up the lightsaber SFX a bit, but when Luke practices with his saber onboard the Falcon they changed it from white to green for some reason. And you'd think they could take the time to digitally paint out the power cord running up Obi Wan's sleeve.

[Stuart Mackey]

The fight choreography was also done using the assumption that lightsabre blades were rather heavy, so you should swing it around like a broadsword instead of a light foil. Needless to say, fight choreography in other movies (particularly the prequels) is dramatically different.

snip.

Which is weird, given that real, combat, swords are not all that heavy. A two handed warsword {think Wallace's sword in Braveheart} around 2.3 -3.6kg only. Smaller swords are around 1.5 kg, if that.

[The Dark]

The fight choreography was also done using the assumption that lightsabre blades were rather heavy, so you should swing it around like a broadsword instead of a light foil. Needless to say, fight choreography in other movies (particularly the prequels) is dramatically different.

snip.

Which is weird, given that real, combat, swords are not all that heavy. A two handed warsword {think Wallace's sword in Braveheart} around 2.3 -3.6kg only. Smaller swords are around 1.5 kg, if that.

True, but a rapier (which matches Dooku's style) is only about 1 kilogram. Obi-Wan's OT grip and form resemble a bastard sword, roughly 1.6 kilograms. However, it's noted in a book I have (Renaissance Swordsmanship, by John Clements) that a rapier could not directly parry a heavy sword, but had to rely on voiding and traversing (i.e. redirecting and dodging). With Vader's limited mobility due to the armor, he'd not want to use a form that relied on dodging, thus he would use the "heavier" style of lightsaber. Kenobi, as possibly still the superior fighter, but with slightly slowed reactions due to age and having not fought in a while, would also select the "heavy" style to be able to directly match Vader in the corridors, where there wouldn't really be room for the proper "light" footwork.

[NecronLord]

I'm not sure why one would want to do this, but perhaps someone more knowledgeable about swordfighting could offer some suggestions.

More momentum would, AFAIK make it more likely to punch through vader's armour. It's possible that if such a 'heavy' blade had been used by Luke in ESB, Vader would have been bisected.

[Cykeisme]

As a totally hairbrained idea, this might explain the light, medium and heavy styles in JK2. The styles not only represent ways of using a lightsaber, but proficiency with different settings.

Which is weird, given that real, combat, swords are not all that heavy. A two handed warsword {think Wallace's sword in Braveheart} around 2.3 -3.6kg only. Smaller swords are around 1.5 kg, if that.

But the center of mass is a half a meter or so above the hilt, isn't it? Regardless of how much mass a solid sword has, they're wielded in a certain way, and that's the way that was used as a basis for lightsaber handling in Episode IV.
Or, you know, something.

[Kurgan]

As a totally hairbrained idea, this might explain the light, medium and heavy styles in JK2. The styles not only represent ways of using a lightsaber, but proficiency with different settings.

Just a nerd nitpick here, it's actually "Fast, Medium, and Strong" for the blue, yellow and red stances (or "styles") in Jedi Outcast/Jedi Academy.

The styles are game mechanics of course. Why would moving the exact same blade slower make it more powerful? (To say nothing of the new "styles" in Jedi Academy with the Dual Sabers and Saberstaff and their secondary styles... why does the Staff only have Medium as a backup with one blade? Why is duals limited to Fast? And why do both of the secondary styles lack the special moves normally associated with those styles? What's with the "chaining" and turning limitations on certain moves or styles? And why wouldn't you be able to "throw" a Staff fully ignited or two sabers ignited at once? Answer: game balance! )

In JK2 you don't issue one player Medium, another Fast, and another Strong. It works like this... (in multiplayer): you get Fast with the minimum Force points to carry a Lightsaber. A few more points, you get Medium (so you have two styles now, Fast and Medium). And the maximum number of force points expended for your character profile and you get all three styles which you can switch to on the fly.

In Singleplayer you start with Medium when you first acquire the saber, then gain Fast (iirc) and finally Strong as you progress through the game. Jedi Academy's Single Player changes it slightly by giving you Medium to start with, then you are given the choice of Fast or Strong at a certain point in addition to your Medium stance. Later on in the game you are then given the choice of adding your third stance OR substituting the single saber for a Saberstaff or Dual Sabers... each with their own unique stance and then a secondary "backup" stance (Saberstaff having a stripped down version of Medium, Duals having a stripped down version of Fast).

In JA Multiplayer you actually have to expend less Force points to gain a fully functional Saberstaff or Dual Sabers than to gain a Single Saber with all three Stances. To end that nerd rambling about the game here... it's because the "Saber Attack" category is utilized soley for breaking "saber clashes" (blade locks) which ONLY occur in personal duels, thus you can save some Force points for Staff/Duals by giving yourself only the minimum required points in that area. You'll lose a saber clash, but unless you're dueling, that's never going to come up. More points to spend on your other powers.

And in real life sure a swordsman might develop or memorize a "style" set of moves and stances, etc but is he really "locked in" to it? I find the idea of "oh, he's using X? fine I'll use Y, I win! Paper covers rock!" to be kinda goofy and gamish, but then with a well traveled weapon sport like fencing I guess that isn't too hard to believe (and I'm just a fencing newbie anyway). Even the ROTS novel has people switching styles mid fight to throw off their opponents, rather than being helpless in the face of innovation or bad luck in the duel.

[Stuart Mackey]

And in real life sure a swordsman might develop or memorize a "style" set of moves and stances, etc but is he really "locked in" to it? I find the idea of "oh, he's using X? fine I'll use Y, I win! Paper covers rock!" to be kinda goofy and gamish, but then with a well traveled weapon sport like fencing I guess that isn't too hard to believe (and I'm just a fencing newbie anyway). Even the ROTS novel has people switching styles mid fight to throw off their opponents, rather than being helpless in the face of innovation or bad luck in the duel.

The 'Paper,Sissors, Rock' which you see in movies is a steaming Pile. Moreover a lot of the stuff thats taught in dojo's is also a steaming pile in that its teaching meathods are rubbish. Combat is not about useing the right style, its only about what works in given circumstances and context. So if you have a move that will work, as opposed to a move that is right as determined by your style, what will you use?.
Btw, if you are a fencer, remember, its a sport, not combat.

[Mobiboros]

Btw, if you are a fencer, remember, its a sport, not combat.

This is true, if you're talking about collegiate style fencing (which is what Dooku was doing. Specifically e was collegiate saber fencing since Christopher Lee has suppossedly been saber fencing for most of his life.)

However, recreationist fencing as done by ARMA and others is not a sport. It's a dueling style, a self-defense style as well as a field combat form if you learn the cut and thrust techniques. As far as not being useful (dojo techniques), a major point of learning rote echnique is so that you are mentally prepared for a fight. The ability to fall back to practiced technique allows a person to keep their calm in combat.


That said, there isn't really a good reason to use a heavier blade in unarmoured combat. There's no armour to power through and even then lightsabers can cut through most armour. So why they'd adopt a 'heavier' blade is somewhat unclear. Granted there is also such thing as a blade that is too light (if too light it's much easier to deflect the attack).

[NRS Guardian]

As a totally hairbrained idea, this might explain the light, medium and heavy styles in JK2. The styles not only represent ways of using a lightsaber, but proficiency with different settings.

Which is weird, given that real, combat, swords are not all that heavy. A two handed warsword {think Wallace's sword in Braveheart} around 2.3 -3.6kg only. Smaller swords are around 1.5 kg, if that.

But the center of mass is a half a meter or so above the hilt, isn't it? Regardless of how much mass a solid sword has, they're wielded in a certain way, and that's the way that was used as a basis for lightsaber handling in Episode IV.
Or, you know, something.

Actually, a sword's center of mass is just forward of the guard, the pommel at the back acts as a counter-balance. Also, medieval and rennaissance era fencing were almost exclusively concerned with effectiveness and survival, even to the point of including unarmed HtH with sword training.

[Stuart Mackey]

Btw, if you are a fencer, remember, its a sport, not combat.

This is true, if you're talking about collegiate style fencing (which is what Dooku was doing. Specifically e was collegiate saber fencing since Christopher Lee has suppossedly been saber fencing for most of his life.)

Indeed...but for the purposes of the movie it was a combat art, not the sport one sees at the olympics.

However, recreationist fencing as done by ARMA and others is not a sport. It's a dueling style, a self-defense style as well as a field combat form if you learn the cut and thrust techniques.

ARMA does this, but that is combat fence as opposed to sport, a big difference which they are at pains to point out.
But one must also remember that they are recreating that which has been lost over time.

As far as not being useful (dojo techniques), a major point of learning rote echnique is so that you are mentally prepared for a fight. The ability to fall back to practiced technique allows a person to keep their calm in combat.

With all due respect, but thats bullshit. Having done the dojo stuff I can assure you that training in pyjamas., bowing, not wearing footwear and having silly things like kata is not going to give one the mental dicipline required in a real fight on the street. Without delving into dubious techniques, one must train as one fights and fight as one trains. I dont know about you, but fights on the street do not follow dojo guidlines. Simply put, dojo training does not provide free form, realistic senario training based on what goes on 'out there', and unless it does its false and givs a false sence of security.

That said, there isn't really a good reason to use a heavier blade in unarmoured combat. There's no armour to power through and even then lightsabers can cut through most armour. So why they'd adopt a 'heavier' blade is somewhat unclear. Granted there is also such thing as a blade that is too light (if too light it's much easier to deflect the attack).

True enough

[Elheru Aran]

Regarding the ANH Kenobi/Vader fight:

Bob Brown, in his lightsaber pages, noted that Obi-wan's fighting style was essentially along the lines of stalling Vader, while at the same time distracting the stormtroopers near the Falcon (note that Kenobi and Vader were fighting right in front of a large, open blast door). He uses a slower, but steady and economical fighting method; Vader, on the other hand, is more aggressive, striking harder and pushing Obi-wan around.

Of course, my memory may be faulty...