TFN Crybabies Want Their Numbers Back!

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2005-07-13 02:27pm

All you "Saxtonites" have to check this thread out on Theforce.net"

+http://boards.theforce.net/Literature/b ... 0180963/p1

There's a campaign by "Thrawn McEwok (Arkady Hodge)" to complain loud and long about the new measurements of the Executor, Death Stars, etc. found in the new DK books. He's hoping his vocal group will convince the VIPs at Lucasfilm to change the numbers back to their incorrect values.

You thought VS Trekkies were bad? These Star Wars "fans" are much, much worse.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-07-13 02:36pm

Why the hell does it matter so much to them? If the Executor is now 17 miles (the correct value) why does that piss them off so much? At least our side has the fact that we're right and the measurements were wrong based on obersvation and the like. They want it returned to old numbers because....?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-07-13 02:40pm

To echo Stravo: the old numbers make the Empire seem smaller and weaker, Executors at 8 KM, Death Stars at just over 100 KM in diameter. The new numbers make these things seem bigger, more impressive... they want the old numbers back WHY?

The other one that shits me is the MonCals ALL being 1.2 KM long, which includes the Home One class command ships. Which are clearly much larger than the Liberty MonCals. It makes no sense.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2005-07-13 02:47pm

They want those numbers back primarily because they are EU completists that want EVERY-FUCKING-THING ever written about Star Wars included into the continuity, and nothing thrown out. This includes all the Marvel comics, insipid children's books like "Glove Of Darth Vader", and theme park rides like "Star Tours", which means, to them, the Imperial Remnant built a THIRD DEATH STAR a few months after the Battle of Endor, with the SAME DESIGN FLAW as the FIRST Death Star!

Oh, and somehow, C3P0 and R2D2 found time to take a side job as tour guides.

They feel the old numbers shouldn't be thrown out. NOTHING should be thrown out.

They are also seethingly jealous of Curtis Saxton and his involvement with the DK books. They're not smart enough to understand these correct numbers are NOT Curtis Saxton creations.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-07-13 03:09pm

Considering that we now have a statement from George that the RotS Death Star is the ANH one,

I'm mighty glad his comments are not actually canon, but merely autorial intent. Otherwise I'd be wondering where they kept the Geonosians abord the two Death Stars.

Firefox · Post by **Firefox** » 2005-07-13 03:21pm

Lord Poe wrote:They feel the old numbers shouldn't be thrown out. NOTHING should be thrown out.

So when several scenes in ESB and RotJ, next to the highest canon, show the Executor to be far larger than five times the length of the accompanying ImpStars.... what would be their answer?! That the ISD is shorter than a mile?

Oh, how some people at bizarro-SD.net would love that one....

Trekdestroyer · Post by **Trekdestroyer** » 2005-07-13 03:30pm

I don't understand why so called "Star Wars fans" would want to size down the ships of the Empire and the Rebellion.

I guess it stems from the fact that the larger ships and the enormous Death Star are too hard for theese people to imagine and comprehend. They have to size down the Death Star for example, to put the idea in their small minds, I guess. It seems that their strategy is to throw out objective analysis for their precious EU books and comics size specs. The extent they go to for simplicity is astounding to the casual veiwer.

Glimmervoid · Post by **Glimmervoid** » 2005-07-13 03:37pm

Firefox wrote:Oh, how some people at bizarro-SD.net would love that one....

Would that mean this site was a pro trek creationist site violently against suspension of disbelief, were people never swore?

On the topic: to most people (i.e. not us) the power of the empire is not important. They would not care if the empire can or cannot build a giant battle station in a year. To them the story is important. And in some causes because some people have no taste they want lots of stories rather than a few good once (theme park rides come on). There for anything that endangers this is a threat to them and must be denied.

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2005-07-13 04:13pm

Trekdestroyer wrote:I don't understand why so called "Star Wars fans" would want to size down the ships of the Empire and the Rebellion. I guess it stems from the fact that the larger ships and the enormous Death Star are too hard for theese people to imagine and comprehend.

To be perfectly honest if it was up to me I would go with the Death Star sizes of 140 and 160km. Nothing to do with vs. debating, it's just that the 900 km DSII just strikes me as insane "hur hur mine's so fucking huge yeah!" wankyness. But of course the film trumps my preferences, and it's really not that important in my life to be honest.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-07-13 05:06pm

Why is 900 KM 'wank' but 120-160 KM reasonable? Is it just a subjective feeling (because I'm the reverse, I consider 120 KM to be too small, and not because I have penis envy)?

Glimmervoid · Post by **Glimmervoid** » 2005-07-13 05:20pm

Stofsk wrote:Why is 900 KM 'wank' but 120-160 KM reasonable? Is it just a subjective feeling (because I'm the reverse, I consider 120 KM to be too small, and not because I have penis envy)?

It’s like those pro-trek "debtors" that claim that travelling 1000 times the speed of light is more realistic than travelling 1 million times.

Firefox · Post by **Firefox** » 2005-07-13 05:35pm

Unless they change some of the shots in any future release of RotJ, it'll be damned near impossible to claim the DSII as any smaller than 900km, given its size relative to the Endor moon. How is it too "unrealistic" or "wank" compared to 160km, anyway?

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2005-07-13 05:43pm

Firefox wrote:So when several scenes in ESB and RotJ, next to the highest canon, show the Executor to be far larger than five times the length of the accompanying ImpStars.... what would be their answer?! That the ISD is shorter than a mile?

That because the length was never stated in canon and because there is no measuring stick in space, they insist its IMPOSSIBLE to tell how big the ships are in the film. I suppose they also feel that all the astronomers in the world are making up numbers out of thin air as well when they tell up how big distant stars, galaxies, etc are.

They also think any attempt to measure canon objects doesn't qualify as canon. Its all unreliable FX.

Firefox · Post by **Firefox** » 2005-07-13 05:51pm

That's little different than a recent dispute I had over another vs. topic (ISD vs. Galactica). One of the prime claims my opponents made was that no objective measurements could be made from the movies because they were fiction, and thus not to be taken so seriously.

I do wish I had thought of your astronomy analogy, though. It's more eloquent than the one I used.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2005-07-13 06:03pm

Firefox wrote:That's little different than a recent dispute I had over another vs. topic (ISD vs. Galactica). One of the prime claims my opponents made was that no objective measurements could be made from the movies because they were fiction, and thus not to be taken so seriously.

Then he has no business even participating in the debate. If one removes the objective data, all thats left is subjective bullshit.

Firefox · Post by **Firefox** » 2005-07-13 06:17pm

That's exactly what I said, which was then proceeded by veiled personal attacks and one-liners. Several pages later, I decided it wasn't worth arguing with such miscreants.

Somewhat related to the topic, have any of these nuts claimed that the Devastator and Avenger are of different classes, trying to strawman the use of objective analysis and interpretation of the visuals? Perhaps even going as far as to claim they're of different sizes?

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2005-07-13 07:53pm

I'm still reading it. It's like these guys only believe what's continuously spoon-fed to them. I wonder if they will eventually change their stance since all new material will state 19 km? Probably not...

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2005-07-13 07:56pm

I knew McEwok (Arkady Hodge) was an idiot the first time I went to the TF.net board and saw some of the things he spouted, this just proves it. One thing I remember Chee saying is that coolness although the last criteria is still a criteria in deciding on canon. Meaning that if two explanations for something exist and all things being equal one is cooler than the other, they go with the cool one. That is in fact one of the reasons, besides the little matter of overwhelming, objective evidence, that I accept the canon lengths Saxton calculated. I'm all for anything that makes SW cooler, and IMO 18km Executors cooler than 8km SSDs.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2005-07-13 09:01pm

I wish there were some other exclamations for "Oh my God".

McEwok (Arkady Hodge) claims that Noghri are actually Ewoks. EH_Pilot claims that Hoth asteroids are actually explosive.

I wonder if I can read the whole thing without getting a headache.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2005-07-13 09:17pm

nightmare wrote:I wish there were some other exclamations for "Oh my God".

McEwok (Arkady Hodge) claims that Noghri are actually Ewoks. EH_Pilot claims that Hoth asteroids are actually explosive.

I wonder if I can read the whole thing without getting a headache.

I couldn't read your post without getting a headache from the filtered stupidity, so I doubt it.

For Oh, my god, I tend to revert to other languages, although Jesus Titty-Fucking Christ is always a popular choice.

Junghalli · Post by **Junghalli** » 2005-07-14 02:51am

Stofsk wrote:Why is 900 KM 'wank' but 120-160 KM reasonable? Is it just a subjective feeling (because I'm the reverse, I consider 120 KM to be too small, and not because I have penis envy)?

It's subjective, I'm not going to try to defend it in a debate. But 120-160km feels about right to me. The size of a small moon, which is the logical step up from asteroid size ships like the Executor. The Texas sized DSII just seems insane to me, when I first heard it I was like "this has got to be some fringe fanboy estimate."

LaCroix · Post by **LaCroix** » 2005-07-14 05:08am

Since the executor ist already bigger than most asteroids (i only have the data from NEO-watch by hand, and already bigger than most of the moons of Jupiter, Saturn and Mars, its quite strange for me to have a station "like a small moon" smaller than 180 km...

To me, the size of the first DS1 feels too small... i'd place it in the 200-300km range, the 900km for DS2 are perfectly clear to me when compared to the size of Endor, the Sactuary moon.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-07-14 05:16am

Junghalli wrote:
Stofsk wrote:Why is 900 KM 'wank' but 120-160 KM reasonable? Is it just a subjective feeling (because I'm the reverse, I consider 120 KM to be too small, and not because I have penis envy)?
It's subjective, I'm not going to try to defend it in a debate. But 120-160km feels about right to me. The size of a small moon, which is the logical step up from asteroid size ships like the Executor. The Texas sized DSII just seems insane to me, when I first heard it I was like "this has got to be some fringe fanboy estimate."

Are you deliberately trying to be stupid? "It's subjective, I'm not going to try to defend it in a debate?" Then why is it "insane" then? Because anyone who dares to use screenshots and quotes from the original FX people against your subjective bullshit must be nuts?

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2005-07-14 06:57am

Darth Wong wrote:Are you deliberately trying to be stupid? "It's subjective, I'm not going to try to defend it in a debate?" Then why is it "insane" then? Because anyone who dares to use screenshots and quotes from the original FX people against your subjective bullshit must be nuts?

It is entirely possible for something to be the observable truth (or as close as we can get) and still feel insane. Example: Quantum Mechanics, or the whole idea that we are more empty space than occupied.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2005-07-14 07:13am

LaCroix wrote:Since the executor ist already bigger than most asteroids (i only have the data from NEO-watch by hand, and already bigger than most of the moons of Jupiter, Saturn and Mars, its quite strange for me to have a station "like a small moon" smaller than 180 km...

To me, the size of the first DS1 feels too small... i'd place it in the 200-300km range, the 900km for DS2 are perfectly clear to me when compared to the size of Endor, the Sactuary moon.

I wrote in another thread a while ago that Dr. Saxton mistakenly believes that the ANH Death Star model was three feet in diameter, while the Behind the Magic CD-ROM and the Databank of the Official Site states that the model was 120 cm in diameter. According to the scale in which the Death Star was built (1:180,000 according to the Bantha Tracks #6 that Dr. Saxton refers to) this would mean that the first DS was 216 km in diameter. Someone had also made calculations that indicated a similar size based on the information given by the targeting computers. Unfortunately, I can't find the thread in question.