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How is it that Ysalamari repel the Force, since the Force creates life if something repeled the Force wouldn't it kill itself?

Ysalamari evolved or adapated to hide themselves from force sensative predators. You could aurgue they are force sensative themselves and simply using it only to cancel out the force in their local area, or that that particular EU defintion of the force is wrong in light of the evidance of the Ysalamari.

IIRC life creates Force, not the other way around.

Sir Sirius wrote:IIRC life creates Force, not the other way around.

True; Force is generated by living (I assume biological) beings. I think the ysalimiri have something along the lines of an evolved "shroud of teh dark side!!" ability...

True; Force is generated by living (I assume biological) beings. I think the ysalimiri have something along the lines of an evolved "shroud of teh dark side!!" ability..

Seems likely, they apparently stop any uses of the force in their vicinity, rather than stripping the force away like Vong.

Molyneux wrote:True; Force is generated by living (I assume biological) beings. I think the ysalimiri have something along the lines of an evolved "shroud of teh dark side!!" ability...

I think there's a bit more to it than that. I'm of the line of thought that they are Force sensitive and instinctively repel/cancel out any Force usage near them, as Mr Bean suggested.

The observable effect is that the Force appears not to exist in that vicinity. It would be theoretically possible to overpower the creature's cancellation ability, but as of yet nobody has been able to. If the hypothesis is true, Ysalamari would be among the strongest Force-users in the galaxy, even though it's purely instinct.

Mr Bean wrote:Ysalamari evolved or adapated to hide themselves from force sensative predators.

I seem to recall Karde was speculating on the ysalamiri's origins. Admitedly, it's been years since I sat down to read the Thrawn trilogy, but I can't recall anything in it that said the lil' slugs were confirmed to be a product of natural evolution.

[quote=“Stofsk”][quote=“Mr Bean”]Ysalamari evolved or adapated to hide themselves from force sensative predators.[/quote]
I seem to recall Karde was speculating on the ysalamiri’s origins. Admitedly, it’s been years since I sat down to read the Thrawn trilogy, but I can’t recall anything in it that said the lil’ slugs were confirmed to be a product of natural evolution.[/quote]
Karde did say (not sure if it was there) that they had evolved that ability in response to the Vronskyrs (?) ability to hunt with the force.

No, Karrde speculated that was how the ysalamiri came about; I don't think he actually knew for certain. Does it need to be pointed out that his chief occupation is a smuggler and outlaw, not a xenobiologist? If someone has the books perhaps they can read and quote the relevant passage.

The Last Command wrote:And perhaps even more telling, the existence of the bizarre Force-empty bubbles created by Myrkr's ysalamiri could finally be explained if they were simply a form of defense or camouflage against predators [vornskrs].

This is Karrde musing to himself; nothing concrete.

I also found this:

The Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook wrote:Ysalamiri have the unusual ability to "push back" the mysterious energy field known as the Force. Apparently, this bizarre ability is a defense mechanism against the ysalamiri's natural enemy, the vornskr. Vornskrs, four-legged predators that hunt the ysalamiri through the Force itself, are the only other known non-sapient species that are so attuned to this mystical energy field.

You know what I hated about the Ysalamiri? They became 'no limit' fallacies. Yes, okay, I accept that they use to Force around their vacinity to camoflage themselves, and yes they might even cancel the Force too. That's fine.

I just hated it when one Jedi came up against one, they were totally powerless. Why can't certain Jedi just be slightly stronger in the Force than one yslamiri and overwhelm it? I mean a whole forest of them making Luke normal was fine, but one on one, a jedi the power level of say Luke or Joruus should have just laughed it off.

Its the whole, one ysalamiri = able to stunt a local area of the Force perfectly always, that just smacked like a no limits fallacy.

Crown wrote:You know what I hated about the Ysalamiri? They became 'no limit' fallacies. Yes, okay, I accept that they use to Force around their vacinity to camoflage themselves, and yes they might even cancel the Force too. That's fine.

I just hated it when one Jedi came up against one, they were totally powerless. Why can't certain Jedi just be slightly stronger in the Force than one yslamiri and overwhelm it? I mean a whole forest of them making Luke normal was fine, but one on one, a jedi the power level of say Luke or Joruus should have just laughed it off.

Its the whole, one ysalamiri = able to stunt a local area of the Force perfectly always, that just smacked like a no limits fallacy.

Not quite, the more you have the bigger the field is. And as was said in the books that the more intune with the force a force user is, the more it feels like you have suddenly been blinded. (Or a limb was just cut off, not really remembering the quote)

Darth Sephiroth wrote:

Crown wrote:You know what I hated about the Ysalamiri? They became 'no limit' fallacies. Yes, okay, I accept that they use to Force around their vacinity to camoflage themselves, and yes they might even cancel the Force too. That's fine.

I just hated it when one Jedi came up against one, they were totally powerless. Why can't certain Jedi just be slightly stronger in the Force than one yslamiri and overwhelm it? I mean a whole forest of them making Luke normal was fine, but one on one, a jedi the power level of say Luke or Joruus should have just laughed it off.

Its the whole, one ysalamiri = able to stunt a local area of the Force perfectly always, that just smacked like a no limits fallacy.

Not quite, the more you have the bigger the field is. And as was said in the books that the more intune with the force a force user is, the more it feels like you have suddenly been blinded. (Or a limb was just cut off, not really remembering the quote)

What do you mean 'not quite'? You just repeated it. Why is one ysalamiri automatically equal and greater in their power to influence the Force than any non-ysalamiri (read Jedi/Sith) Force user?

Does this make sense to you? How isn't this a no limits fallacy? We know that they are varying powerlevels in between individual Jedi/Sith, but why must every Force user be made a little bitch, by what is affectively an over grown hairy slug?

I don't mind the whole more ysalamiri there is the greater/more powerfull their affect is -- it's the fact that every single time it is one ysalamiri no matter how many Force users there are, they are fucked if they enter their 'field of non-Force'.

Yeah, that does sound like a no-limits fallacy.

As an aside, we've gone over the debate over the logical reasons against the Force being completely hereditary (as opposed to tending to sometimes choose members of a family over a short timespan).
Ysalamiri and Vornskrs evolved the ability to manipulate and/or sense the Force through evolutionary pressures; if this was possible, I'd expect almost every world- or a significant majority of worlds, or at the very least a significant minority- to evolve Force-sensitive life-forms!

Yeah, that does sound like a no-limits fallacy.

As an aside, we've gone over the debate over the logical reasons against the Force being completely hereditary (as opposed to tending to sometimes choose members of a family over a short timespan).
Ysalamiri and Vornskrs evolved the ability to manipulate and/or sense the Force through evolutionary pressures; if this was possible, I'd expect almost every world (or a significant majority of worlds, or at the very least a significant minority) to evolve Force-sensitive life-forms!

Maybe its more like the jamming of sensors?

The Jazz Intern wrote:Maybe its more like the jamming of sensors?

If it were, it's likely that stronger Force users would be able to 'break through' the jamming.

If they simply warp the Force around them, actually creating a region of null Force energy, then it does really make sense that they'd be able to render any Force-user powerless. It's not a no-limits fallacy; it'd be like trying to cast Fireball in a no-magic field, or breathe oxygen in a vacuum. There's simply nothing in that area for a Force-user to draw upon.

Now, if said Force-user had a source of stored Force energy - the Staff of Ragnos, for example - they might be able to ignore the ysalimiri's field to an extent...it's also theoretically possible that someone could possibly attack the field itself through the Force, like overloading a force field.

Crown wrote:Why can't certain Jedi just be slightly stronger in the Force than one yslamiri and overwhelm it?

Some animals are significantly stronger physically than humans could ever be (IIRC, there was a recent discussion on chimpanzees and how much stronger they are than humans). Why couldn't this carry over to Force sensitivity in some instances?

Also, some Force-sensitives who are much weaker in some areas are much stronger in other areas. Corran Horn, for instance, has effectively no telekenetic ability, but is one of the stronger users in the telepathic-type Force abilities such as Mind Alter.

Ysalamiri seem purely reactive in their use of the Force. Likely, they cannot control the Force except to counter any Force usage, and that is purely instinctive. That's pretty limited, so it fits in with strong in one area but unable to do anything else.

So while the writers may very well be thinking in a no-limits mindset, it's not impossible to rationalize it as having limits. Enough high level Force users should be capable of overwhelming a single Ysalamiri. However: the Force users have no way of knowing this (they don't know for sure what the creatures do), and it has never been attempted to my knowledge.

Also, some Force-sensitives who are much weaker in some areas are much stronger in other areas. Corran Horn, for instance, has effectively no telekenetic ability, but is one of the stronger users in the telepathic-type Force abilities such as Mind Alter.

When was he shown as a strong mind tricker?
He does have a very rare ability that lets him absorb energy and channel it into anything he wants to (His ancestor absorbed a lightsaber and used the energy to crush 2-3 very powerful dark jedi).

Also are there any examples of a jedi evading a Vornskrs or the Vong versions of them?
They use the force to sense exclusively and their tracking down powerful jedi (or groups of force users) who are trying to hide would support the specialised survival instinct theory.

After all we know that a force user doesnt have to be equally good at every single skill,
so why shouldnt a natural force user only focuse on one ability making it more likely to survive and pass this ability on to it’s increasingly specialized descendants which would also happen in the rest of the directly affected food chain?

Another example of force use is the “blue people?” from “the courtship of princess Leia” who were borderline sentient but their entire species had force empathy to a respectable degree.

So these things developed their Force nullifying to prevent predators from using the Force to find them. Wouldn't that work against them, to some degree? If you're a predator, and suddenly you lose your connection with the Force, then you pretty much know a ysalamari is close by. It's kind of a dead giveaway, isn't it?

[quote=“Jason”]So these things developed their Force nullifying to prevent predators from using the Force to find them. Wouldn’t that work against them, to some degree? If you’re a predator, and suddenly you lose your connection with the Force, then you pretty much know a ysalamari is close by. It’s kind of a dead giveaway, isn’t it?[/quote]
THEY MAY BE ABLE TO USE IT TO MAKE THEMSELVES ONLY UNDETECTABLE IN THE FORCE WHENEVER A VORSKYR IS NEAR?

Jason wrote:So these things developed their Force nullifying to prevent predators from using the Force to find them. Wouldn't that work against them, to some degree? If you're a predator, and suddenly you lose your connection with the Force, then you pretty much know a ysalamari is close by. It's kind of a dead giveaway, isn't it?

Kinda, but the ysalimiri has about a 10m. radius of effect, IIRC. When multiple ysalimiri are in close proximity to one another, the effect is multiplied...the vornskrs would have a huge volume of area to look through, and the ysalimiri are pretty well-camouflaged.

the .303 bookworm wrote:When was he shown as a strong mind tricker?
He does have a very rare ability that lets him absorb energy and channel it into anything he wants to (His ancestor absorbed a lightsaber and used the energy to crush 2-3 very powerful dark jedi).

Well, there was that incident when he was attempting to lift a boulder where he inadverdantly tricked everyone present into thinking that he'd lifted it....
That and Luke Skywalker flat out tells him his entire lineage had a tendency to be somewhat lacking in telekinetic skills, but had a apecial affinity for energy absorbtion and mind influence[/i].

My problem with the slugs and lizards is that they are rediculous. I think that they would be something that Palpatine and Vader would have used the death star against because they would have been a threat to them.

However, If they wernt a threat, then that begs the question 'why not?', maybe because in EU all the jedi are pussies cause they dont believe in the force, rather an offshoot of it.
Bear with me here for a moment.....

In the movies, the force is Black and White, good vs. evil however in EU the force is a friggen rainbow of colors (just ask the biotch Vergere...I hate that character with a passion) so, because they have lost their belief in the force, and are trying to spin the force around their personnal beliefs rather than just trusting the force, it makes their bond weaker, thereby, meaning that the slugs and lizards 'seem' to be so powerful. Wereas for all we know, the Jedi of the Old Republic and the Sith/Dark Jedi of the same period, would perhaps have felt their presence when they were in close proximity, but it would have affected them.

It would, for instance, be like a Paladin (D&D style), looseing his faith then wondering why he couldnt sence evil anymore, ...because the lost his skill to.

Anyways, thats my opinion, I personally think that EU has some good stories, but, they dont mesh perfectly with what Star Wars is

My problem with the slugs and lizards is that they are rediculous. I think that they would be something that Palpatine and Vader would have used the death star against because they would have been a threat to them.

As far as I know, only smugglers knew about Myyrkr until Thrawn came to power, long after Vader and Palpatine were gone.

However, If they wernt a threat, then that begs the question 'why not?', maybe because in EU all the jedi are pussies cause they dont believe in the force, rather an offshoot of it.
Bear with me here for a moment.....

I can't wait to hear this.

In the movies, the force is Black and White, good vs. evil however in EU the force is a friggen rainbow of colors (just ask the biotch Vergere...I hate that character with a passion) so, because they have lost their belief in the force, and are trying to spin the force around their personnal beliefs rather than just trusting the force, it makes their bond weaker, thereby, meaning that the slugs and lizards 'seem' to be so powerful. Wereas for all we know, the Jedi of the Old Republic and the Sith/Dark Jedi of the same period, would perhaps have felt their presence when they were in close proximity, but it would have affected them.

Except that Verge's conception of the Force didnt come into play at all until almost the end of the NJO, thirty years after ROTJ and past almost all of the EU involving the Ysalamari. Before that, the conception of the force was quite similar to the old, just looked at from a more open point of view. Besides, Ysalamari have been shown to effect beings who use the Dark Side in a pure form just as Palpatine did, at least in a fashion (that lightsaber guy on Coruscant.)

Anyways, thats my opinion, I personally think that EU has some good stories, but, they dont mesh perfectly with what Star Wars is

Wipe some of that hate wank out of your eyes, and you might see that generally, if you want it o fit, it does.