Sith in the Post NJO??

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2005-07-24 04:34am

I have heard rumors that the sith have started back up in the NJO and that Lumiya (former Emperor's hand and Darth Vader's secret Apprentice) had taken on the the title of Dark Lord of the Sith and that Kyp Durron did face off against a Force sensitive Vong that may have been trained in the darker aspects of the force? Are there any truth to these rumors?

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2005-07-24 04:47am

The Sith die at Endor, and without any Sith no new Sith can be trained. Even if you do count Lumiya as a part of the EU she was never a true Sith.

Sidious and Vader adhered to the rule of two, there can only be a master and an apprentice. Though each of them trained servants that could be considered dark jedi, they were not true Sith.

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2005-07-24 06:50am

There is theoretically nothing to prevent some post-ROTJ force-attenuated individual (whether they're a pupil of Skywalker or not) with a perverse sense of morality from restarting the Sith order. I am sure that plenty of documentation on the Sith would continue to exist, and re-discovering the various Sith tactics would probably not be too difficult for someone with a high degree of force attenuation.

Weren't the Sith completely obliterated thousands of years before the fall of the Republic, only to come back? There would seem to be historical precedent for a return of the Sith.

It's also worth noting that the Sith do not have exclusive rights to the Dark Side. I'm suprised that in the chronology of Star Wars the Sith have been the only significant users of the Dark Side (and for that matter, the Jedi the only significant users of the Light Side). It's entirely plausible that some other entity could harnass the Dark Side and become a menace later on.

Old Plympto · Post by **Old Plympto** » 2005-07-24 06:54am

RThurmont wrote:I'm suprised that in the chronology of Star Wars the Sith have been the only significant users of the Dark Side (and for that matter, the Jedi the only significant users of the Light Side). It's entirely plausible that some other entity could harnass the Dark Side and become a menace later on.

To the best of my knowledge, there has also been the Krath, the Jensaarai and the Nightsisters. The last two are localized non-Sith darksiders, and the first unleashed the Great Sith War of 4000 BBY, just by being young, rich and bored.

Darth Sephiroth · Post by **Darth Sephiroth** » 2005-07-24 08:42am

I thought that the Jensaari weren't dark, just forced to do things by the bitch with a star destroyer.

But for the Sith, all it takes is one spirit or a sith holocron and chaos begins again

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2005-07-24 09:06am

Darth Sephiroth wrote:I thought that the Jensaari weren't dark, just forced to do things by the bitch with a star destroyer.

But for the Sith, all it takes is one spirit or a sith holocron and chaos begins again

Not sure if JKA is high enough canon...but if it is, there's always the possibility of someone sneaking onto Korriban and getting possessed/manipulated by Marka Ragnos.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2005-07-24 11:01am

I can confirm that Lady Lumiya has been designated as one of the villains of Legacy of the Force, the nine-book series set after the post-NJO's Dark Nest trilogy

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2005-07-24 01:59pm

Molyneux wrote:Not sure if JKA is high enough canon...but if it is, there's always the possibility of someone sneaking onto Korriban and getting possessed/manipulated by Marka Ragnos.

Thrue True, but that would not be the Sith as reorganized by Darth Bane, since Ragnos was before Bane started the Rule of two and whatever Ragnos could teach may not include anything learned in those few thousand years. But when Palpatine died (and died again) that meant that there is no longer ANY living being that could carry on the Sith.

Some darksider group might CALL themselves the Sith, but it would just be a name and would not have the Sith teachings to go with them. As for Sith Holocrons, I thought almost for sure that few ever existed in the first place.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-07-24 02:04pm

Darth Fanboy wrote:Thrue True, but that would not be the Sith as reorganized by Darth Bane, since Ragnos was before Bane started the Rule of two and whatever Ragnos could teach may not include anything learned in those few thousand years. But when Palpatine died (and died again) that meant that there is no longer ANY living being that could carry on the Sith.

Some darksider group might CALL themselves the Sith, but it would just be a name and would not have the Sith teachings to go with them. As for Sith Holocrons, I thought almost for sure that few ever existed in the first place.

well Exar Kun was able to infuence the living after his death and so could Ragnos (I dout that the Cult of Ragnos was Tavion's own idea). Also unless KOTOR 3 explains it we don't know what happend to (Darth) Revan.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2005-07-24 02:36pm

Darth Fanboy wrote:Some darksider group might CALL themselves the Sith, but it would just be a name and would not have the Sith teachings to go with them. As for Sith Holocrons, I thought almost for sure that few ever existed in the first place.

Palpatine's Sith were just a group that called themselves the Sith, too. The Sith were originally a distinct species but have been extinct for millenia. The Sith have been "just a name" for quite a while.

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2005-07-24 05:16pm

Darth Fanboy wrote:
Molyneux wrote:Not sure if JKA is high enough canon...but if it is, there's always the possibility of someone sneaking onto Korriban and getting possessed/manipulated by Marka Ragnos.
Thrue True, but that would not be the Sith as reorganized by Darth Bane, since Ragnos was before Bane started the Rule of two and whatever Ragnos could teach may not include anything learned in those few thousand years. But when Palpatine died (and died again) that meant that there is no longer ANY living being that could carry on the Sith.

Some darksider group might CALL themselves the Sith, but it would just be a name and would not have the Sith teachings to go with them. As for Sith Holocrons, I thought almost for sure that few ever existed in the first place.

We know for certain that there were quite a few Sith Holocrons that were dug up in the tombs of the great Sith Lords of Kun, Ragnos, Palto, and others on Korriban and that the Jedi Council did have a number of these Holocrons in the Jedi Temple on Coruscant in case the Sith do comeback. They may or may not have been accidently destroyed by Anakin's assault on the Jedi Temple in ROTS.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-07-24 05:21pm

We know for certain that there were quite a few Sith Holocrons that were dug up in the tombs of the great Sith Lords of Kun, Ragnos, Palto, and others on Korriban and that the Jedi Council did have a number of these Holocrons in the Jedi Temple on Coruscant in case the Sith do comeback. They may or may not have been accidently destroyed by Anakin's assault on the Jedi Temple in ROTS.

Even if they survived the purge, wasnt the Temple Completely destroyed at a later date? Either during the Lushakya's (sp) emergence, or during the Vong-forming of Coruscant.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2005-07-24 05:34pm

I'd assume that Luke would've moved any surviving Holocrons to the Academy.

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2005-07-24 05:50pm

Noble Ire wrote:
We know for certain that there were quite a few Sith Holocrons that were dug up in the tombs of the great Sith Lords of Kun, Ragnos, Palto, and others on Korriban and that the Jedi Council did have a number of these Holocrons in the Jedi Temple on Coruscant in case the Sith do comeback. They may or may not have been accidently destroyed by Anakin's assault on the Jedi Temple in ROTS.
Even if they survived the purge, wasnt the Temple Completely destroyed at a later date? Either during the Lushakya's (sp) emergence, or during the Vong-forming of Coruscant.

As I said they may or may not be lost to the universe. Thier fate has never been revealed to us. In any rate according to KOTOR I and II, the Sith did move in and out of the unknown regions periodically to escape from being hunted down by the Jedi and to rebuild thier forces in thier successive attempts to rebuild the Great Sith Empire which did succeed temporarily for short periods of time. Lady Lumiya herself infact did travel to the unkown regions.

If I were looking for Sith remnants, I would start looking in the Unknown regions as my best bet.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2005-07-24 06:20pm

The Sith temple Corran found was not near the Lusankya. IIRC he had to ride a mag-lev train or something to get there, though I have no idea why I think that.

As for force-sensitive Vong, that's not possible, given that the Vong cannot be perceived in the Force.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2005-07-24 06:33pm

I thought it was a section of the Galactic Museum that had been closed off.

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2005-07-24 06:36pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:The Sith temple Corran found was not near the Lusankya. IIRC he had to ride a mag-lev train or something to get there, though I have no idea why I think that.

As for force-sensitive Vong, that's not possible, given that the Vong cannot be perceived in the Force.

IIRC, Didn't Anakin and Jacen find out a way to percieve the Vong through the force?

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-07-24 06:40pm

EmperorSolo51 wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:The Sith temple Corran found was not near the Lusankya. IIRC he had to ride a mag-lev train or something to get there, though I have no idea why I think that.

As for force-sensitive Vong, that's not possible, given that the Vong cannot be perceived in the Force.
IIRC, Didn't Anakin and Jacen find out a way to percieve the Vong through the force?

They tuned into Vong grown "lambert crystals" which were percievable through the force. This allowed them to have a vague sense when a Vong was near, and where it was, but not much beyond that.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2005-07-24 06:46pm

Is that what Jacen did? I don't remember exactly how he gained a Vong sense. Tahiri, on the other hand, gained her Vong sense from her shaping.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-07-24 06:49pm

Is that what Jacen did?

I don't recall. He might have learned the trick from Anakin, but I'm not sure if that is the case.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2005-07-24 08:06pm

Lord Revan wrote:well Exar Kun was able to infuence the living after his death and so could Ragnos (I dout that the Cult of Ragnos was Tavion's own idea). Also unless KOTOR 3 explains it we don't know what happend to (Darth) Revan.

Like I said in my post that you quoted, it wouldn't be the Sith Order as organized by Darth Bane as Ragnos predated Bane, but yes he could still pass on some techings, however that doesn't seem to have happened Post-Endor.

Drooling Iguana wrote:Palpatine's Sith were just a group that called themselves the Sith, too. The Sith were originally a distinct species but have been extinct for millenia. The Sith have been "just a name" for quite a while.

But the Sith Order includes the teachings of the Sith as well. Its different for the Sith Order and Sith Species to share a name than for a Dark Jedi to call himself a Sith since he/she is an evil Force User. (Asajj Ventress calling herself a Sith in the Clone Wars shorts for example, when she was never anything but a Dark Jedi.)

EmperorSolo51 wrote: We know for certain that there were quite a few Sith Holocrons that were dug up in the tombs of the great Sith Lords of Kun, Ragnos, Palto, and others on Korriban and that the Jedi Council did have a number of these Holocrons in the Jedi Temple on Coruscant in case the Sith do comeback. They may or may not have been accidently destroyed by Anakin's assault on the Jedi Temple in ROTS.

How many Sith holocrons have there been since Darth Bane, the reason I say that is because once the Rule of Two was adopted it became a largely oral tradition. Of the Sith Holocrons discovered during KOTOR, how many of those do you think survived into the Imperial Era or Post Imperial Era?

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2005-07-24 08:56pm

Darth Fanboy wrote: How many Sith holocrons have there been since Darth Bane, the reason I say that is because once the Rule of Two was adopted it became a largely oral tradition. Of the Sith Holocrons discovered during KOTOR, how many of those do you think survived into the Imperial Era or Post Imperial Era?

We don't know how many Holocrons were dug up and how many survived Anakin's assault of the Jedi Temple and How many survived into the chaos of the Post-endor SW Universe. I am willing to admit that. However, there maybe more in the Unknown regions as the Sith did tend to retreat there everytime the Sith begin to either A. Infight or B. Get the smackdown laid upon them by the Jedi.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2005-07-24 09:15pm

EmperorSolo51 wrote:
Darth Fanboy wrote: How many Sith holocrons have there been since Darth Bane, the reason I say that is because once the Rule of Two was adopted it became a largely oral tradition. Of the Sith Holocrons discovered during KOTOR, how many of those do you think survived into the Imperial Era or Post Imperial Era?
We don't know how many Holocrons were dug up and how many survived Anakin's assault of the Jedi Temple and How many survived into the chaos of the Post-endor SW Universe. I am willing to admit that. However, there maybe more in the Unknown regions as the Sith did tend to retreat there everytime the Sith begin to either A. Infight or B. Get the smackdown laid upon them by the Jedi.

Then you cannot really count on a Sith Holocron showing up in order to bring about a reincarnation of the Sith Order now can you?

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2005-07-25 03:02am

Didn't Kreia tell the exile in some point in KOTOR II that the true Sith were really just an ideology that could not be destroyed. That would suggest that all it takes to sow the seeds of new Sith are some Force sensatives who're willing to take "might makes right" to the extreme and believe that their power gives them a right to rule. The Sith-specific powers could eventually be rediscovered.

Mikal768 · Post by **Mikal768** » 2005-07-25 09:13am

Darth Fanboy wrote: Some darksider group might CALL themselves the Sith, but it would just be a name and would not have the Sith teachings to go with them. As for Sith Holocrons, I thought almost for sure that few ever existed in the first place.

So.. basically they'd be doing what almost every Sith sect has done since the time of the first split in the Jedi Order. Hell, it's not really a sith tradition if it isn't redesigned every couple thousand years. lol