Something I noticed at the Battle of Coruscant

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-07-27 02:47am

Did anyone else note that not a single Venator was seen to be destroyed or badly damaged in the entire battle? All catastrophic damage and general defeats happen to Separatist ships-

In order:

1. Venator blows off a piece of a Recusant;
2. Venator blows a Munificent in half;
3. Venator seen docking with a Lucrehulk (presumably to capture him);
4. Recusant getting a chunk blown out of it by blue turbolaser bolts;
5. Recusant crashing into a Munificent; and
6. Venator winning a broadside slugging match against a Providence.

We see some slightly damaged Loyalist ships, but not really- one or more are "burning", one is having a line of explosions tear along it's starboard bridge superstructure "neck", but no catastrophic losses and no obvious "well, she lost" moments.

Drunk Monkey · Post by **Drunk Monkey** » 2005-07-27 02:52am

I don’t know maybe GL’s planning to tweak the battle a bit for the DVD, ILM might have done the scene half assed.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-07-27 02:55am

Drunk Monkey wrote:I don’t know maybe GL’s planning to tweak the battle a bit for the DVD, ILM might have done the scene half assed.

Hrm? It's not a criticism, just an observation. There's nothing in the battle that's half-arsed besides the silly writing decision of having them play silly buggers with robotic gremlins rather than shooting shit with their lasers.

Kenoshi · Post by **Kenoshi** » 2005-07-27 03:10am

Vympel wrote:
Drunk Monkey wrote:I don’t know maybe GL’s planning to tweak the battle a bit for the DVD, ILM might have done the scene half assed.
Hrm? It's not a criticism, just an observation. There's nothing in the battle that's half-arsed besides the silly writing decision of having them play silly buggers with robotic gremlins rather than shooting shit with their lasers.

I still have a problem with the idea of having turbolasers manned by clone crews, shooting out of windows on the ship. Yeah, it's supposed to be evocative of battleships from WWII and whatnot, but considering the level of automation that's present in the Star Wars universe it seems silly to use clones to man the guns, and sillier still to fire out of a window instead of using an exterior-mounted turret that would have a better firing arc.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-07-27 03:15am

Kenoshi wrote: I still have a problem with the idea of having turbolasers manned by clone crews, shooting out of windows on the ship. Yeah, it's supposed to be evocative of battleships from WWII and whatnot

Earlier than that. I'm pretty sure no WW2 battleships had guns firing out of portholes.

but considering the level of automation that's present in the Star Wars universe it seems silly to use clones to man the guns, and sillier still to fire out of a window instead of using an exterior-mounted turret that would have a better firing arc.

Luckily the ICS details exterior-mounted turrets in the brim trench, and of course there's the main dorsal heavy turbolaser batteries (see also the exterior guns on Star Destroyers, seen in the "hold your fire" scene in ANH). Having those internal guns manned by *armored clones* was stupid, but I have no problem with them being manned (the guns on the Death Star were too) as a concept. It's not like they're using their eyes to aim and their hands to turn the gun.

Kenoshi · Post by **Kenoshi** » 2005-07-27 03:29am

Vympel wrote:
Kenoshi wrote: I still have a problem with the idea of having turbolasers manned by clone crews, shooting out of windows on the ship. Yeah, it's supposed to be evocative of battleships from WWII and whatnot
Earlier than that. I'm pretty sure no WW2 battleships had guns firing out of portholes.

but considering the level of automation that's present in the Star Wars universe it seems silly to use clones to man the guns, and sillier still to fire out of a window instead of using an exterior-mounted turret that would have a better firing arc.
Luckily the ICS details exterior-mounted turrets in the brim trench, and of course there's the main dorsal heavy turbolaser batteries (see also the exterior guns on Star Destroyers, seen in the "hold your fire" scene in ANH). Having those internal guns manned by *armored clones* was stupid, but I have no problem with them being manned (the guns on the Death Star were too) as a concept. It's not like they're using their eyes to aim and their hands to turn the gun.

This is true....I don't recall any porthole guns in the ICS so maybe it was just something that was thrown in to remind audiences of the Death Star gunners in Ep IV. But even if they need crews to manually run the guns wouldn't they have enlisted crew members for that sort of thing? Why use clones, considering all the effort that goes into growing and training them?

Adam Reynolds · Post by **Adam Reynolds** » 2005-07-27 03:52am

[quote]This is true....I don't recall any porthole guns in the ICS so maybe it was just something that was thrown in to remind audiences of the Death Star gunners in Ep IV. But even if they need crews to manually run the guns wouldn't they have enlisted crew members for that sort of thing? Why use clones, considering all the effort that goes into growing and training them?[/quote]

Vendators are also troop transports and the clones weren't doing anything so they probably just went to their battle stations like everyone else.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2005-07-27 04:01am

I'm afraid GL and ILM created the Republic-military with the idea in mind, that there are only clones (for everything) and the Jedi as Generals/Admirals.

The EU (comics, novels, games and so on) might show a greater variety, but not the movies.

Doesn't the ROTS-VD claim in its Vader-entry on its last pages, that only AFTER the war Naval Academies start training non-clone-officers?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-07-27 04:28am

Its irrelevent and stupid. Tarkin is a flag officer in uniform. I don't think he just graduated the academy. Absolute canon.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2005-07-27 06:30am

Oh, i agree, that it is stupid.

Changes nothing, that the quote is there and that the clones seem to be everywhere.

As for Tarkin, do we really know when that scene with the DS-prototype takes place? It could well be a decade after ROTS. Not to forget the question, if he really is an officer and not just a politico wearing a uniform.

I mean, him commanding a Victory isn't canon, but EU (like all the other instances, where we don't see clones, but normal humans in the military).

Coalition · Post by **Coalition** » 2005-07-27 08:59am

One possibility for the battle, is seing more Separatist ships dropping in even as the battle rages.

You might see one of the Venators steadily destroying Banking Clan frigates and Commerce Guild Destroyers wih its guns, then another trio of Banking Clan Frigates drop in. The Venator destroys two of them, but the third fires its main guns at full power (having charged up before jumping), destroying the Venator. That third Frigate then continues in the battle, firing its main guns at lower power levels.

As for seeing clones in the ship manning guns, I'd like to think that the Clone armors were being mass-produced, and used as a temporary emergency suit by everyone. Eventually specialized suits are developed, but in the meantime you have a factory making clone armors, and people that need protecting.

Firefox · Post by **Firefox** » 2005-07-27 10:21am

One screenshot posted at MF.com showed a Venator's bridge tower being obliterated by a chunk of separatist warship. It was probably from a deleted scene, since it doesn't take place in the film.

Here's the thread in question:

+http://www.millenniumfalcon.com/phpbb/v ... php?t=5098

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-07-27 10:24am

The EU (comics, novels, games and so on) might show a greater variety, but not the movies.

We didn´t see the gunners outside their suits (just like in ANH) so there´s no reason to conclude they are clones.

As for non-clone soldiers, there are plenty. They just happen to show the non-human ones in the movies (wookies, aleen etc.)

Admiral Drason · Post by **Admiral Drason** » 2005-07-27 10:43am

Vendators are also troop transports and the clones weren't doing anything so they probably just went to their battle stations like everyone else.

For one its spelled Venator. Why would the ground assault troops start maning capital scale turbo lasers? Infintry is usually not trained in the use of Navy equipment.

I would assume that those are just regular navy personel who are just wearing the clone armour because of it being mass produced.

Grandmaster Jogurt · Post by **Grandmaster Jogurt** » 2005-07-27 03:26pm

Back to the OP, I don't think this sort of thing is new. As far as I can remember, we've never seen the "good guys" lose a capital ship to anything short of a Death Star shot. At Endor, we never even saw a rebel ship take noticable damage, either.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2005-07-27 03:39pm

Kenoshi wrote:
I still have a problem with the idea of having turbolasers manned by clone crews, shooting out of windows on the ship. Yeah, it's supposed to be evocative of battleships from WWII and whatnot,

Well its more reminiscent of broadside ironclads from the 1860's then anything else.

but considering the level of automation that's present in the Star Wars universe it seems silly to use clones to man the guns, and sillier still to fire out of a window instead of using an exterior-mounted turret that would have a better firing arc.

The clones might only be a backup for if the computers crash. And the number of times shipboard computerized combat systems have broken down in combat is rather significant, especially when you consider how few times computerized RL warships have actually been in combat.

Kenoshi wrote:
This is true....I don't recall any porthole guns in the ICS so maybe it was just something that was thrown in to remind audiences of the Death Star gunners in Ep IV. But even if they need crews to manually run the guns wouldn't they have enlisted crew members for that sort of thing? Why use clones, considering all the effort that goes into growing and training them?

Because the idea is to expend Clone lives wherever possible, and those exposed gunnery positions are going to be heavily hit in any engagement. The Clone armor suits, if they are anything like Stormtrooper gear also contain an integral oxygen supply, useful for if there is a hull breach.

Zwinmar · Post by **Zwinmar** » 2005-07-28 11:49am

It really dont take much skill to load a shell into the breach of a cannon. So I could easily see them recruiting the infantry to do it if needed.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2005-07-28 12:02pm

Zwinmar wrote:It really dont take much skill to load a shell into the breach of a cannon. So I could easily see them recruiting the infantry to do it if needed.

Also, it's not a huge conceptual leap from clones manning self-propelled turbolasers and other ground artillery to clones manning turbolasers and other artillery installed in bays on warships.

Of course, it's also not a huge conceptual leap to conclude, as others have, that not everyone wearing the same armor as a clone trooper is necessarily a clone trooper. Even some Jedi wore the stuff, after all.

Pcm979 · Post by **Pcm979** » 2005-07-28 12:39pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:Because the idea is to expend Clone lives wherever possible, and those exposed gunnery positions are going to be heavily hit in any engagement.

Actually, according to LoE, Clone lives were an extremely precious commodity towards the end of the Clone War. While this was placed in the context of the ridiculously low number of 1.2 million Clones, it still makes sense if it's used in the Units=Battalions sense, given the fact that the Droid troops outnumber them hideously.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-07-28 04:16pm

Pcm979 wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:Because the idea is to expend Clone lives wherever possible, and those exposed gunnery positions are going to be heavily hit in any engagement.
Actually, according to LoE, Clone lives were an extremely precious commodity towards the end of the Clone War. While this was placed in the context of the ridiculously low number of 1.2 million Clones, it still makes sense if it's used in the Units=Battalions sense, given the fact that the Droid troops outnumber them hideously.

Those figures are unteniable and supposedly being phased out. Besides, even if those were the numbers it'd be more cost-effective to just draft trillions of volunteers and then the precious clones bullshit wouldn't matter.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-07-28 04:33pm

One reason for the one-sided nature of the battle may be that Obi-Wan's forces have just arrived to reinforce the Coruscant defense forces. The battle has been going on for a while ("hours" according to the novelization), and so an influx of fresh ships would probably find easy pickings among the already-damaged and decimated Separatist fleet. There may have been plenty of Republic ships destroyed or damaged before the beginning of the movie, but once Obi-Wan's reinforcements arrived then it became a one-sided slaughter.

Glimmervoid · Post by **Glimmervoid** » 2005-07-28 04:34pm

Patrick Ogaard wrote:
Zwinmar wrote:It really dont take much skill to load a shell into the breach of a cannon. So I could easily see them recruiting the infantry to do it if needed.
Also, it's not a huge conceptual leap from clones manning self-propelled turbolasers and other ground artillery to clones manning turbolasers and other artillery installed in bays on warships.

Of course, it's also not a huge conceptual leap to conclude, as others have, that not everyone wearing the same armor as a clone trooper is necessarily a clone trooper. Even some Jedi wore the stuff, after all.

Is it possible what we saw was that ground based artillery. Maybe the gun portions of it are stored near the hull so they can be used as extra fire power in battle. It like 2 guns for the price of one.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-07-28 04:37pm

At least one venator was lost when CIS ship accidently rammed it while exiting hyperspace.

Raptor 597 · Post by **Raptor 597** » 2005-07-28 04:42pm

Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:Back to the OP, I don't think this sort of thing is new. As far as I can remember, we've never seen the "good guys" lose a capital ship to anything short of a Death Star shot. At Endor, we never even saw a rebel ship take noticable damage, either.

Except the cruisers getting hit by the Death Star II. However, you are right it appeared to me that the Rebels got off rather well while stardestroyers were being destroyed. Something has always bothered me about that battle; it seems that the Rebel fleet was under tremendous pressure but never buckled in the slightest except losing numerous fighters.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-07-28 04:58pm

Captain Lennox wrote:
Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:Back to the OP, I don't think this sort of thing is new. As far as I can remember, we've never seen the "good guys" lose a capital ship to anything short of a Death Star shot. At Endor, we never even saw a rebel ship take noticable damage, either.
Except the cruisers getting hit by the Death Star II. However, you are right it appeared to me that the Rebels got off rather well while stardestroyers were being destroyed. Something has always bothered me about that battle; it seems that the Rebel fleet was under tremendous pressure but never buckled in the slightest except losing numerous fighters.

That kind of makes sense considering the fact that for the first part of the battle they were only being attacked by Ties, and when the ISDs were finally forced to engage, they had to cope with a completely unexpected attack strategy. Besides, like on Endor itself, Rebel casualties arent shown as much as Imperial ones.