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I just saw ROTS in theatre yesterday and I thought I'd put down everything I noticed in one spot.

-The Jedi field commanders were very easy for the Clones to kill, even the Geonosis area vets such as conehead Jedi and the Twi'lek female Jedi, were cut down by less than a dozen troops. Contrast this with Obi-wan and Yoda who easily handled the Clones at the temple. Either these are substandard Jedi or the shroud of the Dark Side is really hindering the Jedi at this point.

-It's apperent to me that Yoda and Kenobi at some point intended to overthrow the Emperor. Yoda says "we will go into hiding until the time is right", or words to that effect. His tone made it obvious to me that he intended to try again to overthrow the Emperor at some point. Whether Kenobi and him where intending to use the twins is unknown. But they must have split them up for some reason. Perhaps they intended to start a "shadow" Jedi Order, akin to how the Sith regained power, and intended to use the twins for this.

-We see the origin of the "certain point of view" that Obi-wan seems fond of in the OT. It's Yoda that tells him that he should consider Anakin dead and Darth Vader a different person.

-Vader is considerably thinner in the suit in ROTS than in the OT, he must have undergone a serious weight training regime to have been able to toss Captain Antilles across the room in ANH provided he wasn't using the force.

-The crew of the Star Destroyer at the end of ROTS appears to be standard humans. Where the crews always consripts/volunteers or are we seeing the beginning of the Empire's military programs? And if so how long is the training? We can't be looking at longer than a week before the formation of the Empire and the Death Star scene going by the age of the twins.

I think this would be more suited for the PSW forum.

The Jedi field commanders were very easy for the Clones to kill, even the Geonosis area vets such as conehead Jedi and the Twi'lek female Jedi, were cut down by less than a dozen troops. Contrast this with Obi-wan and Yoda who easily handled the Clones at the temple. Either these are substandard Jedi or the shroud of the Dark Side is really hindering the Jedi at this point.

The Jedi were taken utterly and completely by suprise by Order 66. They were in no way substandard, just too trusting of the Clones.

Cpl Kendall wrote:I just saw ROTS in theatre yesterday and I thought I'd put down everything I noticed in one spot.

-The Jedi field commanders were very easy for the Clones to kill, even the Geonosis area vets such as conehead Jedi and the Twi'lek female Jedi, were cut down by less than a dozen troops. Contrast this with Obi-wan and Yoda who easily handled the Clones at the temple. Either these are substandard Jedi or the shroud of the Dark Side is really hindering the Jedi at this point.

The novel goes into detail, that the Jedi Precog never detected since the Clones were never a threat.

It also goes into that the Shorud lowers everything about a Jedi, as Obi Wan Noted inside the cruiser rescuing Palpatine.

-It's apperent to me that Yoda and Kenobi at some point intended to overthrow the Emperor. Yoda says "we will go into hiding until the time is right", or words to that effect. His tone made it obvious to me that he intended to try again to overthrow the Emperor at some point. Whether Kenobi and him where intending to use the twins is unknown. But they must have split them up for some reason. Perhaps they intended to start a "shadow" Jedi Order, akin to how the Sith regained power, and intended to use the twins for this.

Novel goes into detail that splitting up was to insure, if one dies the other doesn't.

-The crew of the Star Destroyer at the end of ROTS appears to be standard humans. Where the crews always consripts/volunteers or are we seeing the beginning of the Empire's military programs? And if so how long is the training? We can't be looking at longer than a week before the formation of the Empire and the Death Star scene going by the age of the twins.

Crews during the OR times weren't all clones to begin with.

Noble Ire wrote:I think this would be more suited for the PSW forum.

Yes you're probably right. Can a mod move it?

The Jedi were taken utterly and completely by suprise by Order 66. They were in no way substandard, just too trusting of the Clones.

That still leaves use with the issue of how much the Dark Side was clouding their precogniction. Yoda sensed it, how come these guy's didn't?, is it because he's more powerful?

Cpl Kendall wrote:

Noble Ire wrote: The Jedi were taken utterly and completely by suprise by Order 66. They were in no way substandard, just too trusting of the Clones.

That still leaves use with the issue of how much the Dark Side was clouding their precogniction. Yoda sensed it, how come these guy's didn't?, is it because he's more powerful?

Simply more powerful. Literally the novel goes into detail...that 99% of the Jedi were caught off guard because the Clones had no ill will to the Jedi, or any malice...nothing that triggered their early warning for the most part.

That still leaves use with the issue of how much the Dark Side was clouding their precogniction. Yoda sensed it, how come these guy's didn't is it because he's more powerful?

It was a combonation of the Dark Side clouding the galaxy and the Clones taking the Jedi by suprise. Together, they made the trap virtually unescapable. As for Yoda, yes, he is tremendously more powerful than most Jedi.

Ghost Rider wrote:
The novel goes into detail, that the Jedi Precog never detected since the Clones were never a threat.

I see, I knew I should have bought the novel yesterday too!

It also goes into that the Shorud lowers everything about a Jedi, as Obi Wan Noted inside the cruiser rescuing Palpatine.

I missed that line, but the Shroud obviously has limitations against powerful Jedi. Anakins power had doubled (according to him) since AOTC, and Obi-wan was now a Master. So clearly it is limited in it's scope. Perhaps it can't stop the truely uber Jedi?

Novel goes into detail that splitting up was to insure, if one dies the other doesn't.

Is that out of concern for their well being or because they had a plan for them later? Feel free to spoil me, I don't mind.

Crews during the OR times weren't all clones to begin with.

Ok, good to know.

Cpl Kendall wrote:The Jedi field commanders were very easy for the Clones to kill, even the Geonosis area vets such as conehead Jedi and the Twi'lek female Jedi, were cut down by less than a dozen troops. Contrast this with Obi-wan and Yoda who easily handled the Clones at the temple. Either these are substandard Jedi or the shroud of the Dark Side is really hindering the Jedi at this point.

Some have said that the Jedi were simply in shock, since these were the troops they had fought alongside for years.

It could also be that Sidious simply turned up the juice on the shroud for a few minutes, since he no longer had to worry about hiding from the Jedi. The shroud may very well have been gone by the time Obi-Wan and Yoda arrived at the temple, since there would be little sense in bothering with it if most of the Jedi are dead.

Notice how many troopers the padawan alone takes down during the scene where Organa tries to investigate the temple massacre.

Perhaps the ease of taking down the Jedi Generals (Ki-Adi-Mundi and Aayla Secura respectively, btw) was simply a combination of the two?

We see the origin of the "certain point of view" that Obi-wan seems fond of in the OT. It's Yoda that tells him that he should consider Anakin dead and Darth Vader a different person.

Also note Anakin saying "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil."

Vader is considerably thinner in the suit in ROTS than in the OT, he must have undergone a serious weight training regime to have been able to toss Captain Antilles across the room in ANH provided he wasn't using the force.

Undoubtedly. It works in universe too since it would have made little sense for Anakin to suddenly gain a whole different build from simply putting the Vader suit on.

The crew of the Star Destroyer at the end of ROTS appears to be standard humans. Where the crews always consripts/volunteers or are we seeing the beginning of the Empire's military programs? And if so how long is the training? We can't be looking at longer than a week before the formation of the Empire and the Death Star scene going by the age of the twins.

Perhaps the ships were being crewed by them the whole movie and Lucas decided to only show them at the end? I can't think of any other explanation.

Ghost Rider wrote:
Simply more powerful. Literally the novel goes into detail...that 99% of the Jedi were caught off guard because the Clones had no ill will to the Jedi, or any malice...nothing that triggered their early warning for the most part.

Ok I understand now. I thought their precognition showed them everything but there has to be some forethought or ill intent on the the part of the user against the Jedi for them to pick up anything. I always wondered how the Jedi filtered through everything.

Cpl Kendall wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote: It also goes into that the Shorud lowers everything about a Jedi, as Obi Wan Noted inside the cruiser rescuing Palpatine.

I missed that line, but the Shroud obviously has limitations against powerful Jedi. Anakins power had doubled (according to him) since AOTC, and Obi-wan was now a Master. So clearly it is limited in it's scope. Perhaps it can't stop the truely uber Jedi?

A little more nebulous but there are some interesting points. After the duel with Dooku, Obi Wan in the novel wonders why are they screwing up. And note that Obi Wan FUBARs with Dooku, while Anakin practically assrapes after a point. It is thought of and inferred that Palps in close contact can lower or raise it's intesity. He keeps a blanket that the war and everything interferes but when in close contact he has much more control.

Novel goes into detail that splitting up was to insure, if one dies the other doesn't.

Is that out of concern for their well being or because they had a plan for them later? Feel free to spoil me, I don't mind.[/quote]

No real plan, but they did want the possiblity of Jedi, but not the same mistake as with Anakin. Yoda realized the old Jedi way was what fucked them over, and to restart they wanted a clean slate.

Cpl Kendall wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:
Simply more powerful. Literally the novel goes into detail...that 99% of the Jedi were caught off guard because the Clones had no ill will to the Jedi, or any malice...nothing that triggered their early warning for the most part.

Ok I understand now. I thought their precognition showed them everything but there has to be some forethought or ill intent on the the part of the user against the Jedi for them to pick up anything. I always wondered how the Jedi filtered through everything.

There are even power spikes in Pre-cog. While they can see a possible future, there has to be intent unless the Jedi is spectacularly powerful.

Point in case is Anakin who could pod race with enhanced reflexes and Precog.

Ghost Rider wrote:
A little more nebulous but there are some interesting points. After the duel with Dooku, Obi Wan in the novel wonders why are they screwing up. And note that Obi Wan FUBARs with Dooku, while Anakin practically assrapes after a point. It is thought of and inferred that Palps in close contact can lower or raise it's intesity. He keeps a blanket that the war and everything interferes but when in close contact he has much more control.

I remember the line from Obi-wan about screwing up now, it was in the cruiser after they had been caught in a security field. If Palpy was influencing the fight and rescue through the Shroud that would make a lot of sense, it would explain why Obi-wan got tossed out of the fight when he was able to kick Grevious's ass easily later.

No real plan, but they did want the possiblity of Jedi, but not the same mistake as with Anakin. Yoda realized the old Jedi way was what fucked them over, and to restart they wanted a clean slate.

So this could be taken has evidence that Jedi traits are indeed herditery as well as midiclorian influenced.

Cpl Kendall wrote:-Vader is considerably thinner in the suit in ROTS than in the OT, he must have undergone a serious weight training regime to have been able to toss Captain Antilles across the room in ANH provided he wasn't using the force.

It's also possible the suit was reinforced with additional armor later on, once Vader realized he wasn't as agile as he used to be, and thus needed protection more than agility to defend himself.

The Dark wrote:It's also possible the suit was reinforced with additional armor later on, once Vader realized he wasn't as agile as he used to be, and thus needed protection more than agility to defend himself.

Thats of course possible as well.

I have a problem with the Jedi-precog failing of "no ill will and no malice from the clones".

If that would be true, how does the precog work against battle-droids, that have also "no ill will and no malice", since they are only following their programming?

Or do they and if so, can we take this as a sign, that they are sentient, feeling beings?

Cpl Kendall wrote:
That still leaves use with the issue of how much the Dark Side was clouding their precogniction. Yoda sensed it, how come these guy's didn't?, is it because he's more powerful?

Partly and also remember the beginning of that scene. For some reson Palpy left Yoda till last. He felt the death of the other jedi. He clutches at his chest IIRC.

Regardless, the film was great.

But, on topic...

I think droids aren't sensable, just overly predictable, and Jedi have two forms of Danger Sense (as seen in NJO: Vector Prime) ones where they actively read the target, and ones where they look at the future...

If you notice, the Jedi realize something's going on a second or two before it actually goes on.

Crazedwraith wrote:
Partly and also remember the beginning of that scene. For some reson Palpy left Yoda till last. He felt the death of the other jedi. He clutches at his chest IIRC.

Thats right. I think Palpy wanted Yoda to survive so he could deal with him himself. He did say he was looking forward to it for a long time.

Cpl Kendall wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:
Partly and also remember the beginning of that scene. For some reson Palpy left Yoda till last. He felt the death of the other jedi. He clutches at his chest IIRC.

Thats right. I think Palpy wanted Yoda to survive so he could deal with him himself. He did say he was looking forward to it for a long time.

Yet he expressed surprise at the fact that Yoda was still alive.

"Master Yoda... you survived."

I doubt that Palps sent out every transmission individually, as it would have taken a while with thousands of Jedi dispersed throughout the galaxy.

Cpl Kendall wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:
Simply more powerful. Literally the novel goes into detail...that 99% of the Jedi were caught off guard because the Clones had no ill will to the Jedi, or any malice...nothing that triggered their early warning for the most part.

Ok I understand now. I thought their precognition showed them everything but there has to be some forethought or ill intent on the the part of the user against the Jedi for them to pick up anything. I always wondered how the Jedi filtered through everything.

You can also look at it like this (the shroud); We know that Jedi or Force users can 'shroud' their presence in the Force. Lessen it so other Force users can't detect you.

How ever, powerful Jedi like Windu and Yoda use the Force to glance at the future.

Palpatine, would represent a serious 'shatterpoint' in the Force. He is the point where so much happens and spreads out from, but he was 'shrouding' himself in the Force from the Force. Thus, the powerful Jedi knew shit was coming, that some thing evil, this way comes, but they couldn't pin point it and since they couldn't pin point Sidious, they couldn't see all the bad shit that Palpatine was going to do.

It's a Force Paradox.

The Sith have actually been doing that for at least 4000 years... Darth Traya hid right under the Jedi Exile's nose.

An addition to my notations:

-The Clone Troopers now use basic fire and movement tactics as opposed to AOTC where they charged blindly at the enemy. They also check and attend their wounded.

-The Wookies appear to use ornithopters on their homeworld. But they also leave their prepared fighting positions to engage the droids as they approach the beach, a big no-no in modern tactics.

-The droid tanks appear to be amphibous without any obvious mechanism for it, how do they float? Repulsorlifts?

observer_20000 wrote:
I doubt that Palps sent out every transmission individually, as it would have taken a while with thousands of Jedi dispersed throughout the galaxy.

No matter what the method, Yoda's Order 66 clearly came later than other Jedi's.

Cpl Kendall wrote:-The droid tanks appear to be amphibous without any obvious mechanism for it, how do they float? Repulsorlifts?

there are two possibilities. number one, they don't, Dwarf spider droids are known to be capable of walking under water it's possible that tanks are capable of doing that as well). Second just as you said repulsors.

Dakarne wrote:The Sith have actually been doing that for at least 4000 years... Darth Traya hid right under the Jedi Exile's nose.

It isn't the same thing. Traya rendered herself invisible to the Force, Sidious smothered it Galaxy-wide.