StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Posted: **2005-08-07 07:20pm**

Just adding this to the pile of the discussion, from Jedi Counciling on Wizard's RPG site.

Q: In his fight with Mace Windu, what exactly happens to Palpatine's face? Some say he was scarred by the Force lightning, but others say he was dropping some sort of illusion and revealing his true face. Which is it?

A: Ah, the mysteries of the Force. There are problems with both of these ideas: The idea that he was being physically damaged by the Force lightning doesn't match Return of the Jedi. Luke was being hit by Force lightning for quite some time, and he wasn't scarred like that. On the other hand, if Palpatine was using an Illusion-assisted Disguise check (see Jedi Counseling 19), he couldn't possibly keep it up continually. Moreover, Illusion is a mind-influencing Force power. It doesn't work on droids or recordings (in other words, someone might notice that he doesn't look the same in recorded speeches), nor would it work when projecting a holographic image halfway across the galaxy. Finally, one would have wonder why he maintained the illusion in his earlier holographic appearances as Darth Sidious. It would seem more prudent to "turn it off" to preserve the Palpatine identity. You are quite justified in being puzzled by this turn of events!

Fortunately, the truth is revealed in Star Wars Insider:

[The] real Palpatine is the one who bursts forth at a calculated moment . . . That is when the true person comes out, letting the evil fully manifest itself. The Emperor . . . looks like he does because he's very old and very evil -- it is what he always looked like. [Star Wars Insider 82 (page 58)]

[It’s] the intensity of reflected lightning and the channeling of such raw dark side power that are the catalysts for Palpatine’s transformation. Perhaps the face that boils up to the surface is shaped by his dark side corruption, but the lightning is definitely the cause. [Star Wars Insider 83 (page 32)]

Palpatine, who has delved extensively into Sith lore, was using an almost-forgotten technique to hide his true self. In game terms, this is an application of the Alchemy skill from the Dark Side Sourcebook (page 13):

<game crunchy stuff cut>

It is not clear whether Palpatine loses his mask intentionally or unintentionally, but it is certain that his Force lightning was the triggering event. It is possible that Palpatine voluntarily fails the save and drops the mask when it no longer suits his purpose using it to convince Anakin to intervene against Mace Windu and showing his "scars" to the galaxy as evidence of Jedi betrayal.

Posted: **2005-08-07 07:46pm**

The idea that he was being physically damaged by the Force lightning doesn't match Return of the Jedi. Luke was being hit by Force lightning for quite some time, and he wasn't scarred like that.

Would it perhaps depend on how the lightning is being channeld, in both power and location.

In ROTJ, Palpatine was dousing Luke with Force-lightning, with the intention to cause great pain, initially, but not to kill. Sidious subjected Luke to ridicule and humilation in he's seeming defeat.

The level of power in the lightning neccasary to do this would naturally be alot less than it would take to kill and physically scar a being. Also in this case, the lightning was electrifying Luke all over he's body, spreading thin and not being focused on one precise body part to cause maximum injury.

Now take ROTS, Palpatine is seemingly defeated in he's duel with Mace Windu, and with the intention to kill Windu in a final move, he douses him with Force-lightning.

With the intention to kill, Palpatine focuses the lightning to one specific part of Windu, likely the face, but as it is deflected back to him, he is subjected to it in precisely the same location he was intending. The power being channeld, to kill, and the focusing of the lightning on one specific part, would case maximum damage.

This also account's for why Mace was violently hurled from the window as a result of the lightning. It's power being greater. Where's Luke was simply paralyzed with pain and unable to move or escape.

Posted: **2005-08-07 07:51pm**

On the other hand, if Palpatine was using an Illusion-assisted Disguise check (see Jedi Counseling 19), he couldn't possibly keep it up continually. Moreover, Illusion is a mind-influencing Force power. It doesn't work on droids or recordings (in other words, someone might notice that he doesn't look the same in recorded speeches), nor would it work when projecting a holographic image halfway across the galaxy.

This part in particular stood out to me, because it makes it seem that D20 SW doesn't have an exact equivalent to D6's Doppleganger skill, which does fool electronics and recordings. Either that or they've revised it and made it weaker.

Posted: **2005-08-07 08:01pm**

Freeman's Trigger-Finger wrote:Now take ROTS, Palpatine is seemingly defeated in he's duel with Mace Windu, and with the intention to kill Windu in a final move, he douses him with Force-lightning.

With the intention to kill, Palpatine focuses the lightning to one specific part of Windu, likely the face, but as it is deflected back to him, he is subjected to it in precisely the same location he was intending. The power being channeld, to kill, and the focusing of the lightning on one specific part, would case maximum damage.

But if Palpatine meant to kill Windu with the lightning from the getgo, why didn't he start off with it at full power from the beginning, rather than wait until after Mace was injured and distracted to unleash the full-blown bone-glow variety?

This also account's for why Mace was violently hurled from the window as a result of the lightning. It's power being greater. Where's Luke was simply paralyzed with pain and unable to move or escape.

A more reasonable idea is that Palpatine simply threw Windu out the window with the Force while he was zapping him. That prevents creating gross assumptions.

Posted: **2005-08-07 08:42pm**

Darwin wrote:Just adding this to the pile of the discussion, from Jedi Counciling on Wizard's RPG site.

Q: In his fight with Mace Windu, what exactly happens to Palpatine's face? Some say he was scarred by the Force lightning, but others say he was dropping some sort of illusion and revealing his true face. Which is it?

A: Ah, the mysteries of the Force. There are problems with both of these ideas: The idea that he was being physically damaged by the Force lightning doesn't match Return of the Jedi. Luke was being hit by Force lightning for quite some time, and he wasn't scarred like that. On the other hand, if Palpatine was using an Illusion-assisted Disguise check (see Jedi Counseling 19), he couldn't possibly keep it up continually. Moreover, Illusion is a mind-influencing Force power. It doesn't work on droids or recordings (in other words, someone might notice that he doesn't look the same in recorded speeches), nor would it work when projecting a holographic image halfway across the galaxy. Finally, one would have wonder why he maintained the illusion in his earlier holographic appearances as Darth Sidious. It would seem more prudent to "turn it off" to preserve the Palpatine identity. You are quite justified in being puzzled by this turn of events!

Fortunately, the truth is revealed in Star Wars Insider:

[The] real Palpatine is the one who bursts forth at a calculated moment . . . That is when the true person comes out, letting the evil fully manifest itself. The Emperor . . . looks like he does because he's very old and very evil -- it is what he always looked like. [Star Wars Insider 82 (page 58)]

I'm always suspicious of ellipses. Does this quote mean it's what Palpatine was always like literally (contradicted by what's written above) or figuratively, like Dorian Gray's picture, where his ugly nature shows up in scars and boils in the painting?

Darwin wrote: [It’s] the intensity of reflected lightning and the channeling of such raw dark side power that are the catalysts for Palpatine’s transformation. Perhaps the face that boils up to the surface is shaped by his dark side corruption, but the lightning is definitely the cause. [Star Wars Insider 83 (page 32)]

That's pretty vague.

Darwin wrote:Palpatine, who has delved extensively into Sith lore, was using an almost-forgotten technique to hide his true self. In game terms, this is an application of the Alchemy skill from the Dark Side Sourcebook (page 13):

Oy vey!

So he keeps up a disguise AND nobody notices that Palpatine seems to be taking Dick Clark pills?

<game crunchy stuff cut>

It is not clear whether Palpatine loses his mask intentionally or unintentionally, but it is certain that his Force lightning was the triggering event. It is possible that Palpatine voluntarily fails the save and drops the mask when it no longer suits his purpose using it to convince Anakin to intervene against Mace Windu and showing his "scars" to the galaxy as evidence of Jedi betrayal.

How about Palpatine used up all the Force he could tap into to keep Mace from skewering him, and that the shriveled-up look was a kind of spiritual dehydration as he spent every last drop he had to save his own life?

Posted: **2005-08-07 08:56pm**

Since this is game-mechanics based, I'm taking it with a heap of salt.

Posted: **2005-08-07 08:56pm**

How about Palpatine used up all the Force he could tap into to keep Mace from skewering him, and that the shriveled-up look was a kind of spiritual dehydration as he spent every last drop he had to save his own life?

A Plausible Explanation.

It only happened as the Lightning hit his face though.

Posted: **2005-08-07 09:43pm**

Pcm979 wrote:Since this is game-mechanics based, I'm taking it with a heap of salt.

I think the problem is the stuff we can't see that's snipped and removed through ellipses, so we don't know what they're actually saying. There's no actual Force powers being listed above, for one.

Is there an uncut version of this citation? Or at least a link to it? Come on, Darwin, throw us a bone, here.

I'm stil in full support of the Force disquise stance, of course. Have been since before the film came out.

Posted: **2005-08-07 10:24pm**

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:
Pcm979 wrote:Since this is game-mechanics based, I'm taking it with a heap of salt.
Is there an uncut version of this citation? Or at least a link to it? Come on, Darwin, throw us a bone, here.

Linky

Posted: **2005-08-07 10:37pm**

I see. Well, knowing what the skill is and how it works certainly helps. I don't see a problem at all with this "Sith alchemy: Mask" skill.

Additionally, that column gives us this about Force Lightning being used in conjunction with Force Throw/Push (push sounds silly to me):

Q: How does Palpatine send Yoda flying into the wall when he hits him with Force Lighting? Does Force Lightning cause some sort of knock-back effect?

A: No, Palpatine was actually doing two separate things. First, he used Force Lightning (attack action) against Yoda. Then, he used Force Mastery to perform a Force push (Jedi Counseling 60) as a free action. Thus, Yoda gets zapped (2d10 points of damage), dazed (from the Force Lightning), slammed (3d4 points of damage), and thrown into a wall (1d6 points of falling damage) all at once. No one said taking on a Sith lord would be easy.

For me that ends the silly idea of lightning having a powerful knockback effect...

Posted: **2005-08-08 01:42am**

He seems really fond of that combination, since he performs it on Yoda, Mace and Luke IIRC, who gets knocked over. Although that might have just been from the pain and his muscles contracting.

Posted: **2005-08-08 01:48am**

IIRC that Article was written by that Sarli dude, which I am inclined to take with a HUGE grain of salt.

Posted: **2005-08-08 04:14am**

Just because he can't do math correctlyn and he has unrelated agendas doesn't mean he's wrong.

Posted: **2005-08-08 04:36am**

apparently he used alchemy to hide his physical deformities, and the Forcee lightning undid this magical plastic surgery. Which is silly in the extrmee. Its basically the "mask" solution with a magical (Force) element installed. You could just as well say he's a clawdite or has some Force-inspired shapeshifting talent.

1.) why couldn't he restore his face with said alchemy AFTER the attack? (yes I am aware Sarli's RPG conventions suggest that the Dark side crap makes the mask harder to restore, but Palpy apparently didn't even TRY.)

2.) His premise for dismissing the idea of the lightning actually doing damage is faulty (it assumes Luke was actually getting hit with full-power blasts, when there is some obvious reasons to believe that he was NOT being hit by full-powered blasts. The lack of the "x-ray" effect is an obvious one.) And IIRC, the novel actually describes damage taking place, which means Sarli is ignoring the novelization in favor of his interpretations.

3.) ITs been ahwile since I read the novel, but he did not seem all that confident that he could repair the damage (or that the damage was his "true face" -he seemed rather disheartened by the disfigurement as well. I'll have to check on this too.)

4.) He's offering an INTERPRETATION of SWI - the interpretation could just as well allow for the damage to have been done by a combination of the reflected lightning and the exertion of excessive-force usage. He also seems to be itnerpreting the "true side" of palpatine to be the actual physical manifestation, rather than the spiritual/mental one. Its also fairly obvious that he's applying a solution that is heavily influenced by RPG mechanics.

Posted: **2005-08-08 04:41am**

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I see. Well, knowing what the skill is and how it works certainly helps. I don't see a problem at all with this "Sith alchemy: Mask" skill.

Additionally, that column gives us this about Force Lightning being used in conjunction with Force Throw/Push (push sounds silly to me):

Q: How does Palpatine send Yoda flying into the wall when he hits him with Force Lighting? Does Force Lightning cause some sort of knock-back effect?

A: No, Palpatine was actually doing two separate things. First, he used Force Lightning (attack action) against Yoda. Then, he used Force Mastery to perform a Force push (Jedi Counseling 60) as a free action. Thus, Yoda gets zapped (2d10 points of damage), dazed (from the Force Lightning), slammed (3d4 points of damage), and thrown into a wall (1d6 points of falling damage) all at once. No one said taking on a Sith lord would be easy.
For me that ends the silly idea of lightning having a powerful knockback effect...

It works in some examples (Anakin is described as being hit with that attack by Dooku, but not neccecsarily in all cases.) Force lightning DOES exhibit noticable recoil (watch Yoda's arm in AOTC as he absorbs Dooku's bolts.) The "force-battle" at the end of ROTS suggests recoil rather than force pushing.

Posted: **2005-08-08 05:16am**

Also don't forget, that Palpatine's clones in DE looked the same as the original (from ROTJ) after some time.

I'm hesitant to call it corruption of the flesh by the use of DarkSide-energies, because i don't think the quick transformation in ROTS with the lightning doesn't equal the slower decay caused by the creation of Force-storms, controlling the imperial military and so on when the DESB says, that the clones are much more vulnerable to the Dark Side.

Posted: **2005-08-08 07:30pm**

After reading this topic i realize that i saw the scene somewhat different than most,i thought that palpatine dropped the disguise simply because he didn't need it any more,seconds before Anakin had made his final turn to the dark side and later he uses his disfiguration to claim that he had been hurt by the jedi to the senate,personally i didn't think that it was a side affect of force lightning..just another manipulation by palpatine.

Posted: **2005-08-08 10:55pm**

I believe that he lost it from to much released toward Mace. I dosen't take much to just hurl someone out the window.....than to deliver all you got in a huge burst that would definatly kill a person.

We may never know how exactly Palp lost his looks. But one things for sure he will have to pay for his sex now.

Posted: **2005-08-09 01:45am**

It doesn't make any sense...

If Palpatine was using all these Force powers to hide his true identity, wouldn't at least one of the Jedi Masters that seemed to regularly sit across the table from him have sensed it? Maybe even just once? I mean I know that the "Dark Side clouds everything", but c'mon. It's just not feasable that he could keep it up on a continual basis for, however, many years he was in public life. Why even take the chance. I don't think he would.

What does make sense, at least a little bit, is that it was the lightning, and only the lightning, that caused the deformation. Palpatine himself said that the attack left him scared and deformed. Why doubt him. As devious as he is, he doesn't seem to lie all that much. He seems to just turn the truth to his advantage.

Also, someone metioned he may have dropped his Palpatine guise to help lure Anakin to the Dark Side. That would be the last thing you would want to do in that situation. Anakin already wanted to kill him, he admitted that. The only reason he spared him was because he needed his knowledge. Dropping your peaceful, grandfatherly guise that Anakin had grown to love over the course of more than a decade to reveal your true monsterous self, would not have helped one bit. What if that made Anakin realise that Mace was right and he needed to die? Palpatine is far to careful to allow that kind of chance into his plans.

It seems that the easiest explanation is also the best. Palpatine's power was turned back on him. The amount of power he was using against one of the strongest Jedi in the galaxy, and one that just bested him in lightsaber combat (yeah yeah...i know) was so great that even he couldn't resist it.

Oh and here is the whole excerpt from SW Insider. Note: It'sa response to a fan question answered by Pablo Hidalgo, who I remember being not thought to highly of by some.

How exactly does the Emperor's twisted appearance come about? Is it from physical damage caused by his Force lightning or is it Palpatine's true apperance that he has kept hidden?

While there's always a great deal to be kept vague about Palpatine, there is enough evidence to piece together what happens here with some certainty. But this should be couched by saying the issues surrounding the ravaging of Palpatine's face are symbolic first, and literal second.

Have palpatine's handsome features been a disguise this entire time? Sure, the serene smiles and wan expressions are an act-we know now he's been a evil Sith this whole time-but was the face itself some sort of illusion?

Two pieces of evidence indicate that's not the case.Whenever we saw Darth Sidious in Episodes I and II prior to his transformation, when he's been speaking to his direct confidants either via hologram or in person, his face has not been disfigured. It's Palpatine's face, albeit hidden beneath a cowl. If Sidious truly drops the politico persona when not undercover, why maintain the presentable face? Even in Episode III, the film where we see his twisted visage, the early scenes where Sidious communicates to Grievous has the Sith Lord appeared unscarred.

The second strike against the notion of an illusory mask is that Sidious never again hides his disfigurement. Why would he stay pruney for the decades to come, even in public? It's not as conclusive an argument as the first statement, since it requires trying to think like an unfathomable Sith Lord, but it's a point considering nonetheless.

As described in the novel and in the screenplay, it's the intensity of refelcted lightning and the channeling of such raw dark side power that are the catalysts for Palpatine's transformation. Perhaps the face that boils up to the surface is shaped by his dark side corruption, but the lightning is definitely the cause.

Now, it should be noted that George Lucas, Ian McDiarmid, and other crewmembers described the makeup effect-dubbed the Mask of Evil during production-as Palpatine's "true face" and the Chancellor's features as the mask. I'd caution against taking that to literally. I can probably point to interviews in the same vein with Christian Bale describing Bruce Wayne as the mask and Batman as the true face, but no one would take that literally.

The other Insider quote I think is from McDiarmid in an interview. I don't have it with me to post.

Posted: **2005-08-09 05:23am**

havokeff wrote:It doesn't make any sense...

If Palpatine was using all these Force powers to hide his true identity, wouldn't at least one of the Jedi Masters that seemed to regularly sit across the table from him have sensed it? Maybe even just once? I mean I know that the "Dark Side clouds everything", but c'mon. It's just not feasable that he could keep it up on a continual basis for, however, many years he was in public life. Why even take the chance. I don't think he would.

They did know that there was something up; on at least one occasion in the RotS novel, Mace Windu refers to how "the Dark Side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor". Their error lay in their belief that Sidious was among Palpatine's aides, rather than Palpatine himself.

Posted: **2005-08-09 07:27pm**

I did simply post this for discussion, a success, at that.

havokeff wrote:It doesn't make any sense...

If Palpatine was using all these Force powers to hide his true identity, wouldn't at least one of the Jedi Masters that seemed to regularly sit across the table from him have sensed it? Maybe even just once? I mean I know that the "Dark Side clouds everything", but c'mon. It's just not feasable that he could keep it up on a continual basis for, however, many years he was in public life. Why even take the chance. I don't think he would.

if it's Sith alchemy, it doesn't need to be 'kept up', its basically permanent, until he gets toastied up there.

havokeff wrote:
What does make sense, at least a little bit, is that it was the lightning, and only the lightning, that caused the deformation. Palpatine himself said that the attack left him scared and deformed. Why doubt him. As devious as he is, he doesn't seem to lie all that much. He seems to just turn the truth to his advantage.

Well, from a certain point of view.. his appearance (His permanent "I'm not really wrinkly and nasty-looking!" disguise) was scarred and ruined by the attack..

Posted: **2005-08-15 12:25am**

Ok bottomline to the age-old question (or has it been resolved)

Did Windu win Palpatine in the 1-vs-1 duel? Or was Palpatine faking his defeat? (The article did seem to suggest that Palps genuinely lost).

Posted: **2005-08-15 01:07am**

I don't know of too many people who outright insist the whole duel was thrown. Sidious certainly was using it to stall untill Anakin arrived, but it's more likely that Windu gave him enough of a run for his money to end it quicker than Sidious intended.

As for the disguise, two things I think people still need to keep in mind: The disguise was more than simply visual and entailed the 'shroud of the dark side' mentioed by the Jedi. It was probably imperative that Sidious keep his presence in the Force hidden at all times, and raising the flag to every Jedi on Coruscant just to chat with the Separatists would be folly. Second, I really don't get the assertion that the lightning used against Windu's lightsaber was 'full-power'. Who in their right mind uses a lethal attack that is clearly going to be reflected right back at you? It seemed to be strong enough just to keep him at bay and at most to create painful feedback. Hell, Windu appeared to be in more discomfort than Sidious was.

He may have been disarmed beyond his intention, but the injuries were definitely part of luring Anakin. "No, I'm too weak! Don't kill me! Please! I'm soooo weak..." *Fries Windu hot enough to make his bones glow* "Ahhh." *Pulls himself to his feet* Really now, Mace Windu is not that bad-assed.

Posted: **2005-08-15 03:26am**

Utsanomiko wrote: Really now, Mace Windu is not that bad-assed.

No but Jules was... he would whooped Palpatines ass!!

Posted: **2005-08-15 11:04am**

I think I still massively prefer the damage was done to Palpatine by Windu and the damage was irreversible, because Palpatine drew upon too much of the Dark Side against the badass Mace Windu.

And why didn't Palpy do that earlier? In mythological terms, Anakin was the balance. When he cut off Mace arm, he weakened the arm of the Light Side and turned the power towards the Dark.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

New info on Palpatine's disfiguration

New info on Palpatine's disfiguration

Re: New info on Palpatine's disfiguration

Re: New info on Palpatine's disfiguration