Windu vs. Dooku

Jack Bauer · Post by **Jack Bauer** » 2005-08-08 12:42am

Suppose Mace had in fact challenged Dooku at the Geonosian arena. Who would prevail? Dooku went on to hold his own against Yoda, arguably the most powerful in the entire Order. But, Windu more than held his own against Sidious (I for one, like many others here, believe he bested Palpatine clearly).

And one could argue (like I do) that Palpatine went on to defeat Yoda (however narrowly). It seems that me that it would be an awesome fight between Dooku and Mace, but ultimately it would end in a stalemate, at least by the time of AOTC. By Revenge, I would think that Windu would have gotten powerful enough (through fighting in the Clone Wars) to beat Dooku, whose power seems to have peaked after Geonosis.

Dakarne · Post by **Dakarne** » 2005-08-08 06:20am

Windu's Vaapad versus Dooku's Makashi, I'd go for the Makashi logically, but Windu is very powerful, I think it goes to Windu overall

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2005-08-08 07:07am

According to DarkRendevous (IIRC), Dooku would still best everybody in the entire Jedi-order, including Mace.

Of course, if somebody like Matt Stover would write about such a fight, Mace would own Dooku.

Dakarne · Post by **Dakarne** » 2005-08-08 07:17am

According to DarkRendevous (IIRC), Dooku would still best everybody in the entire Jedi-order, including Mace.

He did a great job at beating Anakin,

Of course, if somebody like Matt Stover would write about such a fight, Mace would own Dooku.

'course, this is true...

GeneralTacticus · Post by **GeneralTacticus** » 2005-08-08 07:28am

Well, Dooku did beat Obi-Wan pretty comprehensively, and didn't lose to Anakin until the latter went into a Dark Side rage and proceeded to mop the floor with him. Going by the novelisation, Dooku lost to Anakin for two reasons:

a) The Dark Side made Anakin much more powerful;
b) Anakin was physically much stronger than Dooku, and emplyoed a style which exploited this, making it much harder for Dooku to counter his blows.

Windu's style is based around exploiting point a), and Windu himself has physical strength (b) in spades.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2005-08-08 08:20am

Dooku is old, his style relies on moving just enough to counter a strike and no more, getting his enemy impaitient enough to make a mistake, no energy wasting flips and twirls, this is why he pwned Anakin and Obi Wan that first time.

However Vaapad is so named because a Vaapad is a many limbed monster from sone world or another, the Vaapad style means the opponent has so many attacks to deal with all he can do is defend. Quite simply Mace would overwhelm Dooku with more strikes than he could counter.

Zwinmar · Post by **Zwinmar** » 2005-08-08 12:39pm

I personnally tend to think that Windu's Vaapad would own Dooku. Fencing is good (Dooku's style) but when it comes up against an almost beserker style (Vaapad), it looks down right pitiful, why? because fencing isnt near agressive enough

R.O.A · Post by **R.O.A** » 2005-08-08 12:48pm

My vote goes to Mace. He (in my opionion) would have beat the emporer if it hadent been for Vader and the emporer was without doubt more powerful than dooku for he killed Mace's crew in a fraction of the time it took for Dooku to defeate Obi Wan and Anikin (They were much more powerful yes but still) So Mace would most likely win

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-08-08 01:55pm

However Vaapad is so named because a Vaapad is a many limbed monster from sone world or another, the Vaapad style means the opponent has so many attacks to deal with all he can do is defend.

That would be Sarapin (from Galactic Battlegrounds.)

As to who would win, I would say Mace also. He's powerful enough to fight Palpatine to stand still (if not out right defeat him) something I doubt Dooku could do. His Vapaad style sets him apart.

drachefly · Post by **drachefly** » 2005-08-08 02:18pm

GeneralTacticus wrote:Well, Dooku did beat Obi-Wan pretty comprehensively, and didn't lose to Anakin until the latter went into a Dark Side rage and proceeded to mop the floor with him. Going by the novelisation, Dooku lost to Anakin for two reasons:

a) The Dark Side made Anakin much more powerful;
b) Anakin was physically much stronger than Dooku, and emplyoed a style which exploited this, making it much harder for Dooku to counter his blows.

Windu's style is based around exploiting point a), and Windu himself has physical strength (b) in spades.

Who honestly thinks that Palpatine was just sitting there doing nothing during this fight? Just look at it from the point of view of his personality. It's implausible for him to take a passive approach when the action is right there. He would put his fingers in somehow.

So, what does he want? Anakin as an apprentice. Well, Obi-wan is too stabilizing an influence. A bit of force-reaching-out to confuse Obi-wan, he goes down. Now befuddle Dooku, who ends up confused as to what just happened as things go horribly awry... and bam, nearly turned Anakin right there.

If we accept the possibility that that could have been happening, then it's hard to tell how good Dooku was from that fight.

President Sharky · Post by **President Sharky** » 2005-08-08 05:19pm

An old RPG source (Core Rulebook perhaps) stated that Mace was bested by Dooku in a sparing match back when Dooku was a Jedi. However, at the time of ROTS, Mace would have probably gained a lot more experience fighting in the war, and Dooku would have gotten a lot older and somewhat weaker.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2005-08-08 06:23pm

One of Dooku's advantages in a fight against Jedi is prior knowledge of their fighting styles, and unless he has had time to observe Mace's style then form is a considerable advantage to Windu. Although i'm skeptical as to what people are saying about Dooku's age decreasing his power. (Yoda and Palpatine were how old in comparison and both have gained power as time passed)

I'll vote for Mace on the grounds that he was able to stand up to Palpatine in a straight fight with a fighting style unorthodox enough to give Dooku fits.

Matthew Stover:
OMG! Mac3 Has teh 5Ha773RP01NTZ!

Dakarne · Post by **Dakarne** » 2005-08-08 06:30pm

Matthew Stover:
OMG! Mac3 Has teh 5Ha773RP01NTZ!

Yes, but unless contradicted in the Films, he's right.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2005-08-08 11:57pm

Dakarne wrote:
Matthew Stover:
OMG! Mac3 Has teh 5Ha773RP01NTZ!
Yes, but unless contradicted in the Films, he's right.

What the fuck is with you? I made a quip about Stover's Mace Windu-wank fantasy, i'm not disputing anything.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-08-09 12:14am

Darth Fanboy wrote:
Dakarne wrote:
Matthew Stover:
OMG! Mac3 Has teh 5Ha773RP01NTZ!
Yes, but unless contradicted in the Films, he's right.
What the fuck is with you? I made a quip about Stover's Mace Windu-wank fantasy, i'm not disputing anything.

Just curious, but why is Mace's shatterpoint ability "wank"? Certainly, it makes him very powerful combined with Vapaad, but considering he can fight Palpatine to a standstill (and perhaps even defeat him) he seems to be just that. Does the fact that something is different from preveiling thought or implimentation make it "wank"? Is Yoda FU wank? Is a double-bladed lightsaber wank? This is not meant to be belligerent, I'm merely curious (I started a thread on what Wank was a while back actually.)

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2005-08-09 04:49am

Noble Ire wrote:Just curious, but why is Mace's shatterpoint ability "wank"? Certainly, it makes him very powerful combined with Vapaad, but considering he can fight Palpatine to a standstill (and perhaps even defeat him) he seems to be just that. Does the fact that something is different from preveiling thought or implimentation make it "wank"? Is Yoda FU wank? Is a double-bladed lightsaber wank? This is not meant to be belligerent, I'm merely curious (I started a thread on what Wank was a while back actually.)

I'm not saying his abilties are bullshit, but it you've read the RoTS Novel and "Shatterpoint" then you will understand what I mean when I say that Matt Stover has a huge hard on for Mace Windu.

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2005-08-09 05:14am

Dooku vs. Mace would probably turn out in favor of Mace, since Mace whipped Palpatine and Dooku was not nearly as powerful. Did Palpatine give into Mace? Doubt it. Did Palpatine alter the battle between Dooku and Anakin so that Anakin would win? I doubt that as well...loosing another limb would turn Anakin still closer to the dark side, and I'm not as sure as some how committed Palpatine was to the "Two Sith Only" requirement.

Of course, where Dooku has the advantage is in force lightening: force lightening allowed Palpatine to slow Mace down considerably, and Dooku also has this capability. The question is, since Dooku is obviously so much more of a, to be frank, fat ass, than Palpatine, would Dooku have the agility and reflexes to recognize when to turn it on Mace? I'm not so sure that he would, which is why I give this one to Mace.

On a quick side note, I think there is a lot of evidence that Mace's Vaapad fighting style has made him more into a practitioner of thet Dark Side than he or the Jedi would like to believe. He displays strong flashes of arrogance and megalomania, and clearly was waaay too excited about the prospect of the Jedi seizing power from Palpatine. Just another example of moral ambiguity surrounding the Jedi order...

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2005-08-09 06:15am

Assuming for one moment, that Mace really bested Palpatine, we can't say for sure, if the same would happen against Dooku.

Contrary to Darth Tyranus it seems Palpatine hasn't touched a lightsaber for over a decade (since his weapon was concealed by that statue since the days of him being a senator).

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2005-08-09 07:01am

It's worth noting that even if Palpatine was rusty, he wasn't very-look at how in one incredibly impressive maneuver he lept from his desk, corkscrewed and took out two Jedi (as replayed for us by Lord Poe's signature). I never saw Dooku pull anything that impressive.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2005-08-09 07:09am

FTeik wrote:Contrary to Darth Tyranus it seems Palpatine hasn't touched a lightsaber for over a decade (since his weapon was concealed by that statue since the days of him being a senator).

Devils' Advocate: And yet it took him how long to take down three out of four Jedi Masters with said blade?

Dakarne · Post by **Dakarne** » 2005-08-09 07:54am

Devils' Advocate: And yet it took him how long to take down three out of four Jedi Masters with said blade?

I imagine that if he was rusty, he'd have been nigh-unstoppable beforehand... or he practiced with Dooku a lot.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2005-08-09 09:15am

Dakarne wrote:I imagine that if he was rusty, he'd have been nigh-unstoppable beforehand... or he practiced with Dooku a lot.

Why would he have 'practiced' with Dooku when Dooku was already a master of dueling in his own right? When would he have had the opportunity during the Clone Wars? They never had much of a chance to meet, having to do so in utter secrecy each time.

Dakarne · Post by **Dakarne** » 2005-08-09 09:18am

Why would he have 'practiced' with Dooku when Dooku was already a master of dueling in his own right? When would he have had the opportunity during the Clone Wars? They never had much of a chance to meet, having to do so in utter secrecy each time.

Yes, it would present an issue... I'd imagine that Palpatine had at least some form of keeping himself at top form, or possibly that Jedi/Sith can maintain skill through meditation.

Cybriss · Post by **Cybriss** » 2005-08-09 09:41am

I Think Mace would mop the floor with Dooku. I mean cmon...he took out Palp.

Aquatain · Post by **Aquatain** » 2005-08-09 11:13am

Yes, it would present an issue... I'd imagine that Palpatine had at least some form of keeping himself at top form, or possibly that Jedi/Sith can maintain skill through meditation.

I'm not even sure that physical condition mattes all that much to force users..look at yoda.old ..ermm frog who uses a cane for walking..but when needed he can jump around like theres no tomorrow.

Maybe a force users abillity with the lightsaber is linked to his/her understanding of the force..and nothing else.