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the .303 bookworm wrote:It is said that the NR controls slightly more than half the galaxy with more & better motivated people, meaning the imperials control roughly half their former strength (they still hold most of their important teritories- major shipyards [Kuat] and the deep core)

I don't know what military assets he had at his disposal though.

By this time, the Empire was ailing badly. Most of the Core Worlds Region had been lost early in the Ruling Circle's tenure, as had the Colonies Region and the Inner Rim Region, although The Roleplaying Game, Second Edition (West End Games, 1992) notes that the Inner Rim Region "was held by the Empire far longer than New Republic analysts expected," giving rise to a great deal of popular resentment against the New Republic for its perceived failure to drive the Empire out in a more timely manner. The Expansion Region, formerly a source of "rich tax revenues," was now "generally allied with the New Republic," leaving most of the Imperial State's holdings in the backwater Outer Rim (which had long ago ceased to be a major Imperial holding) and the resource-poor Mid-Rim Region, which was infested with pirate fleets and rogue warlords, and "private empires," which it apparently tolerated on the condition that they supply troops and tribute to the Empire proper. The latest series of clashes had left the New Republic with control of three quarters of the galaxy, according to The Essential Chronology, leaving the Empire to share the remaining quarter with other independent states and rogue warlords, such as the Commonality, the Corporate Sector, the Pentastar Alignment, the Centrality, the Tion Hegemony, and Hutt Space (many of these independent states were formerly Imperial client states). Even much of these holdings were theoretical at best; some warlords, like Moff Governor Getelles of Antemeridian Sector and the self-styled Prince-Admiral Delak Krennel of the Ciutric Hegemony, recognized a nominal suzerainty on the part of the Imperial State, but little else; the Imperial State's territories in Wild Space, formally annexed by Grand Admiral Thrawn according to A Guide to the Star Wars Universe, Second Edition (Del Rey, 1994), were also largely nominal, as the Empire was "too busy to enforce its subjugation."

Although the Imperial State held onto its shipyards at Bilbringi in the Inner Rim, it had in fact lost most of its major shipyards, including Kuat, Corellia, Duro, Sluis Van, and Imperial Center (the disposition and allegiance of Rendili and Loronar are not known during this period), thus depriving it of much of its capacity to manufacture the Imperial Starfleet's larger warships, although some shipyards like Ord Trasi and Yaga Minor remained in the Outer Rim. At the same time, enormous numbers of Imperial warships were simply disappearing, vanishing into the Deep Galactic Core, making the Navy's losses during the recent fighting over Zsinj's territory all the more debilitating. It was quite fortunate that in an Isardian twist, Kuat – like Brentaal in 39 AGR – had been denied to the New Republic as well, and a sudden and unexpected Imperial raid on the New Republic's secret Hast Shipyards resulted in that yard's also being rendered inert, and single-handedly "helped throw the Republic's plans years behind schedule," "cutting short a planned campaign against what remained of the Empire," according to the Dark Empire Sourcebook.

[...]

The arrival of the year 44 AGR found the Ruling Circle ruling an Imperial State with nominal control of "barely a quarter of the galaxy" and suffering from a stagflated economy and lack of ships and resources. The Dark Empire Sourcebook explains that the Ruling Circle suddenly and quite unexpectedly received "a series of ident codes" from the Unknown Regions, which were "unquestionably authentic" and "accompanied a holo message" from the last of Isard's pet Loyalist grand admirals, Grand Admiral Thrawn, the last Warlord of the Empire (a title whose precise significance is unknown, but which appears to have been distributed at the Galactic Emperor's pleasure, as the Dark Empire Sourcebook refers to him as "the last of the Emperor's Warlords," and Heir to the Empire, Bantam, 1991, states that his "brilliant successes had won him the title of Warlord and the right to wear the white uniform of Grand Admiral – the only nonhuman ever granted that honor by the Emperor"). The Essential Chronology states that Thrawn was promptly occupied for six months with reorganizing the fleet and commanding "strategic raids along the New Republic-Imperial border," which "weren't sufficient to panic the New Republic," but served to impress the Ruling Circle (referred to as "the moffs, governors, and other political leaders"); evidently this included having Imperial warships patrol deep within New Republic space, as the smuggler Mara Jade was detained in Dark Force Rising (Bantam, 1992) by HIMS Adamant, a Victory Star Destroyer patrolling the Abregado system, which Coruscant and the Core Worlds explicitly states to have been a lawless port on the edge of the Core Worlds Region. The Dark Empire Sourcebook explains that the Ruling Circle quickly put aside their differences and decided that Thrawn would be the perfect figurehead, being a non-human with "no power base save his own competence," who could "rely on no support other than what they chose to give him." In the event of his success, they would back him and reap the rewards of his conquests. In the event that he should prove "too independent," they resolved to have him assassinated. Thus in agreement, the Ruling Circle appointed him their supreme commander and Thrawn was "effectively handed the reins of the Empire."

The Essential Chronology states that Thrawn "consolidated loyal Imperial forces," which probably refers to the quasi-independent pocket empires under nominal Imperial suzerainty in the Mid-Rim; The Roleplaying Game, Second Edition states that "many such areas" controlled by the Empire were "firmly controlled by the Imperial starfleet, which for the time being has rallied around Grand Admiral Thrawn," but "this is a tenuous alliance at best," as "many of the regions of 'Imperial Space' are actually small dictatorships, administered and controlled by the Moffs who were directed to run them for the Emperor in years past." (The Dark Empire Sourcebook adds that "Thrawn's support was far from universal or even enthusiastic.") Second to this consolidation of Imperial command and control, the Historical Council further states that he "marginalized warlord fiefdoms" such as Ardus Kaine's Pentastar Alignment and the Prince-Admiral of the Ciutric Hegemony (although Isard's Revenge, Bantam, 1998, indicates that the latter gave some financial support to the Imperial State during Thrawn's shôgunate). According to Thrawn's flag captain, Captain Gilad Pellaeon of HIMS Chimaera, actual operations during this period generally consisted of "minor shipping raid{s}" and "complex but straightforward hit-and-fade{s} against some insignificant planetary base." One such minor operation was the information raid on Obroa-skai seen in Heir to the Empire.

Vicious wrote:Incorrect. The Empire never controlled the entire galaxy. Nearly a quarter of it is commonly labeled as the Unknown Regions.

Lord of the Farce wrote:

Vicious wrote:Incorrect. The Empire never controlled the entire galaxy. Nearly a quarter of it is commonly labeled as the Unknown Regions.

More like a nitpick than anything, but IIRC, based on (generous) measurements of the maps that came with the NJO books, the Unknown Region makes up at most around 14% of the surface area of the SW galaxy. And that assumes the galaxy is flat/2D.

Lord of the Farce wrote:

Vicious wrote:Incorrect. The Empire never controlled the entire galaxy. Nearly a quarter of it is commonly labeled as the Unknown Regions.

More like a nitpick than anything, but IIRC, based on (generous) measurements of the maps that came with the NJO books, the Unknown Region makes up at most around 14% of the surface area of the SW galaxy. And that assumes the galaxy is flat/2D.

Does anyone know how many sectors were in the Empire at its height ?

The Original Nex wrote:

Does anyone know how many sectors were in the Empire at its height ?

Over 1000

xerex wrote:

The Original Nex wrote:

Does anyone know how many sectors were in the Empire at its height ?

Over 1000

hmmm then given that there are several regions of space not under Impreial control - Unknown Space,

Wild Space,

Sii Ruuk (?) space

......i'd say the empire controlled maybe 55% or so of the galaxy.....assuming the Unknown regions really are 14% of the total. of course since the core will be a bulge...the empire is probabvly closer to 70% of the total

Chris OFarrell wrote:

xerex wrote:

The Original Nex wrote: Over 1000

hmmm then given that there are several regions of space not under Impreial control - Unknown Space,

No its not.

Wild Space,

Source?

Sii Ruuk (?) space

Hardly. The NR and Chiss defeated the Sii Ruuk for all intents and puposes, the arm of the Galaxy that made up their empire was sweapt clean. The empire had nothing to do with it.

......i'd say the empire controlled maybe 55% or so of the galaxy.....assuming the Unknown regions really are 14% of the total. of course since the core will be a bulge...the empire is probabvly closer to 70% of the total

No. Its explicitly said in SOTP that Thrawn had about a third of the resources of what had once been the Empire to work with.


The problem with the 1000 sectors is that its predicated upon SOTP being right that the SW Galaxy is only one quater populated and that the unknown regions take up the majority of space. If you reject this, then you have to reject the 'super empire'. Of course its solidly rejected anyway as in the New Jedi Order we get a very good look at Chiss space and the Unknown Regions...and its completly empty with nothing of worth. The chiss military is a complete joke as are the bandits around the area.

To address the original point, according to Han in HTTE, the Empire and New Republic were just about evenly gunned. Assuming this was talking about the entire Empire and not what Thrawn had access to, it makes sense. TLC has Ackbar saying that even with the Katana fleet and clone powerhouse, the NR had the balance of power in its favour for the imediate timeframe. And Isards Revenge I think has something like 10% ship losses and 30% casulaties to the NR armed forces from Thrawns campaign.

Oh and the Empire hardly controled the Core. The republic controled most of it, Courscant is right in it afterall. The Empire just hid a fleet in the DEEP core. Which frankly didn't appear to be THAT big. Its just the size of the ships that made them a threat, that and the Eclipse/Galaxy gun.

The arm of the the galaxy that the Ssi Ruuk occupied was not "swept clean". In fact, I can't recall the NR ever invading Ssi Ruuk space. The Ssi Ruuk were defeated at Bakura and retreated to lick their wounds.

Noble Ire wrote:

The arm of the the galaxy that the Ssi Ruuk occupied was not "swept clean". In fact, I can't recall the NR ever invading Ssi Ruuk space. The Ssi Ruuk were defeated at Bakura and retreated to lick their wounds.

I don't recall the exact source, but the NR sent a fairly sizeable force to ensure that the Ssi-ruuk wouldn't be a threat again (I think after Coruscant was retaken, although I'm not sure.) Most of the Ruuk assests were destroyed and they were reduced greately in strength, at which point the Chiss wiped them out.

Chris OFarrell wrote:

Vicious wrote:
What the hell are you smoking? SOTP doesn't rely on the galaxy being only 1/4 populated, it postulates that ~1/4 of the galaxy is unoccupied by either the NR or the Remnant.

"And in the center of it all was a sight that sent a shiver of memort along Luke's spine: a holographic map of the galaxy, with the sectors of the New Republic, the Empire and the rest of the known regions marked out in a bewildering array of a dozen different colors. The whole variegated mosaic stretched across perhaps a quater of the huge spiral, fading into neutral white where the edges of the Outer Rime Territories gave way to the vastness of the Unkown Regions beyond.

The arm of the the galaxy that the Ssi Ruuk occupied was not "swept clean". In fact, I can't recall the NR ever invading Ssi Ruuk space. The Ssi Ruuk were defeated at Bakura and retreated to lick their wounds.

You know why the maps of the Unknown Regions contain nothing but empty space? Because they are UNKNOWN!

Why would Han be talking about the Empire at it's height in relation to the current conflict between the NR and the Remnant?

What the fuck does the Empire's full power have to do with the equation?

Thrawn didn't control the Deep Core fleets, so it's irrelevant to this discussion.

Chris OFarrell wrote: False. SOTP PP 311:

"And in the center of it all was a sight that sent a shiver of memort along Luke's spine: a holographic map of the galaxy, with the sectors of the New Republic, the Empire and the rest of the known regions marked out in a bewildering array of a dozen different colors. The whole variegated mosaic stretched across perhaps a quater of the huge spiral, fading into neutral white where the edges of the Outer Rime Territories gave way to the vastness of the Unkown Regions beyond.

Please don't be such an idiotic asshole and debate on subjects you clearly know nothing about. The explicite quote here shows that only a QUATER of the Galaxy was inhabited and claimed by the Galaxy and that the outer rim gave way to the huge areas of the unknown regions.

Which is the whole bloody problem with SOTP/VOTF. Because the 'uber Thrawn OMG 250 sector' claims run smack into the problem that Zahns assumptions are completly bonkers as multiple sources explicitly show just about the entire Galaxy explored and inhabited.

Chris OFarrell wrote:

xerex wrote:

The Original Nex wrote:Over 1000

hmmm then given that there are several regions of space not under Impreial control - Unknown Space,

No its not.

Wild Space,

Source?

Sii Ruuk (?) space

Hardly. The NR and Chiss defeated the Sii Ruuk for all intents and puposes, the arm of the Galaxy that made up their empire was sweapt clean. The empire had nothing to do with it.

......i'd say the empire controlled maybe 55% or so of the galaxy.....assuming the Unknown regions really are 14% of the total. of course since the core will be a bulge...the empire is probabvly closer to 70% of the total

No. Its explicitly said in SOTP that Thrawn had about a third of the resources of what had once been the Empire to work with.

The problem with the 1000 sectors is that its predicated upon SOTP being right that the SW Galaxy is only one quater populated and that the unknown regions take up the majority of space. If you reject this, then you have to reject the 'super empire'.

Of course its solidly rejected anyway as in the New Jedi Order we get a very good look at Chiss space and the Unknown Regions...and its completly empty with nothing of worth. The chiss military is a complete joke as are the bandits around the area.

Oh and the Empire hardly controled the Core. The republic controled most of it, Courscant is right in it afterall. The Empire just hid a fleet in the DEEP core. Which frankly didn't appear to be THAT big. Its just the size of the ships that made them a threat, that and the Eclipse/Galaxy gun.