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I'm sorry if this question has come up before, but it something i was wondering while watching my tape of the Clone Wars cartoon...

Supposedly the Force is supposed to be this supernatural, unknown energy that flows through all living creatures. That appears to include animals and humans and aliens. This energy, is so omnipresent that, as far as i know, no one has ever been found without it. In other words, no one is completely without a Force 'signature', again as far as i know i havent read any of teh books really.

So what i'm saying is, would or could you call the Force the soul? Or is it some natural energy force, like gravity or light or magnetism, that simply exists in the universe and can be accesed?

Ah forgot to add my take on it:

It always seemed fairlyobvious that the Force is simply the SW universe's scientific term for the soul, or that at least that was George Lucas's original intention. But i want to know what you guys think too.

So.... The Vong are soulless marauders?

Works for me!

Well, if you look at it from the perspective of Hinduism, all people (and gods) are aspects of a greater spirit (Brahma, I think). From that perspective the Force is the greater intelligence behind the universe and all living things are a part of it.

Of course Obi Wan Kenobi said that living things create the Force, but he also said that the Force binds the galaxy together. But we all know that Obi Wan likes messing with people's heads.

However in ROTS (at least the novelization) Qui Gon Jinn had discovered a technique by which a Jedi may retain his sense of identity after death, something that surprises Yoda. This seems to indicate that Jedi don't believe in an afterlife, at least in the Judeo-Christian sense. Apparently your 'soul' merges with the Force after death and loses all sense of self, unless some special measures are taken.

skyman8081 wrote:So.... The Vong are soulless marauders?

Works for me!

The Vong dont have the Force? I didnt know that, i thought they were just able to 'blot it out', like that animal that could...oh i forgott the name, Yssamlil or some such.

If so...it WOULD make sense, that they were 'soulless'. We're they exiles or something? I'm working from second hand info here i never read any of the NJO books at all, even though i read bits and pieces of some of the Thrawn trillogy, Dark Empire, etc. If i make any mistakes my bad.

The Force is more akin to chi than to the soul, it is an energy which flows through all things. Yoda said that it even "flowed through" things like the trees and the rocks.

18-Till-I-Die wrote:

skyman8081 wrote:So.... The Vong are soulless marauders?

Works for me!

The Vong dont have the Force? I didnt know that, i thought they were just able to 'blot it out', like that animal that could...oh i forgott the name, Yssamlil or some such.

Ysalamiri. And I have no idea if thats what the Vong are. They aren't the only force immune race though; look at the Dashades. It could be more that their force connection basically severs them from all life and the stream of the force, meaning that they are essentially exiled from the universe as a whole, fragmented off.

The Force is hard to define, it is up to each Jedi's mind to define it as they see fit. Some see it as a flow, a wave of life connecting everything. Some see it as a subtle thing, generated from all life that binds them together faintly. I don't think there is a single definition for the Force, and lets not forget what Kreia thought about the Force...

What about Tao? There are a lot of similarities that can be drawn between the Force and Taoism, aren't there?

Wait...help me here, who is Kreia and what did she think of the Force?

Oh and, also, what is this 'Unified Force/Living Force' debate i've heard about?

My personal take would be that, it would appear the Force is, in some ways, essential to life. It's not a requirement, i.e a race can exist without it, but look at them when they do...the Vong, as i understand, are about as evil as they come, from what i read they sacrifice people and mutilate themselves on a regular basis. They sound more like teh Dark Eldar than anything else.

Ghetto edit: i mean it isnt hard to say, or very inaccurate, the Vong are 'soulless' or 'demons' from what i've read/heard.

Actually, the Vong were not so much without the Force as they were locked away from it. Much the same way Naomi Sunrider looked Ulic from the Force.

In this case, the vong's home world stripped the entire race of the ability to access or be affected by the Force.

Kreia is a grey Jedi from KOTOR/ KOTORII, who was the one who taught Revan. She was exiled from the Jedi order because of her failings in his instruction, and ended up discovering the Trayus Academy on Malachor V, and she became a Sith Lord, Darth Trayus (Lord of Betrayal), and ended up acquiring two students, Darth Sion (Lord of Pain) and Darth Nihilus (Lord of Hunger).

Both her apprentices exiled her, draining her of her power. So she has been betrayed by both sides, and sees the flaws of both. Wikipedia worded it as "Darth Traya would refine her views while wandering the galaxy; at some point she would fall into a heresy the most degenerate Sith never entertained- she came to view the Force as an uncaring, insidious god that uses the lives of sentients as pawns in a cosmic game of balance. She noted the tremendous loss of life throughout history, and far into the future, during the many battles between the Jedi and the Sith, but Darth Traya blamed neither the Jedi nor the Sith but rather the very thing they both drew upon and were practically defined by- the Force. She was, however, angry at both the Jedi and the Sith for being too absorbed and "caught up in the game" to realize how the Force was manipulating them all. Exiled from the Jedi Order after the blame for her Padawan becoming Darth Revan devolved upon her, and later exiled and stripped of her authority and position by her impatient Sith students Darth Nihilus and Darth Sion, Darth Traya experienced betrayals from, and thus saw the flaws of, both the light and dark sides of the Force."

She thus attempts to essentially "kill" the force. The Jedi Exile had disconnected himself from the Force to protect himself from the force wave from the destruction of much of the fleets during the Mandalorian War, and he thus showed Kreia that life COULD exist without the force and that it was possible to damage (and "attack") the force stream with acts of violence, evil, mass slaughter, and betrayal. Quoting wikipedia again for saving me time, "By the end of her adventures with the Exile, during which time she went by the name of Kreia, Traya had devised a method to kill the Force with "echoes" (her term)- tragedies that leave persistent wounds in the universe that made the Force difficult (sometimes impossible) to hear and be used. Her discovery of these "echoes", and her avenue of attack on the Force was due entirely to the Exile; he provided the first 'echo' that she could study by his actions on the planet of Malachor V, and he turned the echoes by his survival from mere curiosity into being a viable mechanism for destroying the Force. By Darth Traya's reasoning, people who died of these echoes when they could not bear to voluntarily sever themselves from the Force (like the Exile did to save his life) were not strong enough to deserve to live in the first place. Her hatred of the Force was her overriding goal for in her mind, due to her conviction that if she did not kill it, even more would die in the future."

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Wait...help me here, who is Kreia and what did she think of the Force?

Already covered, I think.

Oh and, also, what is this 'Unified Force/Living Force' debate i've heard about?

A debate into the workings and use of the Force, mentioned by Qui Jon himself in TPM. The living Force is the thought that the Force is the 'life force that life creates, makes it grow.' While the unifying Force is the one that 'binds the universe together'.

Both seem to have a place with the Jedi order, but it is unknow AFAIK if the Sith subscribe to it though.

My personal take would be that, it would appear the Force is, in some ways, essential to life. It's not a requirement, i.e a race can exist without it, but look at them when they do...the Vong, as i understand, are about as evil as they come, from what i read they sacrifice people and mutilate themselves on a regular basis. They sound more like teh Dark Eldar than anything else.

Ghetto edit: i mean it isnt hard to say, or very inaccurate, the Vong are 'soulless' or 'demons' from what i've read/heard.

The Force seems to be the current of FATE or GOD, in the SW universe. In both the living Force and Unifying Force, you see elements of both magic and the 'hand of God' manipulating people into the fate decreed to them.

It was decreed by the Force that Anakin Skywalker would 'bring balance to the Force' but silly humans tend to not think of the consequences it would bring or the lead up and events it would require for him to do such a thing.

The Force seems be a mismash of religious phenomena (in a similar tradition to how Dune borrowed from more than one tradition in formulating its religious aspects), so it would come as no surprise to me if it didn't perfectly resemble just one set of features.

There appears to be no reincarnation in Star Wars (at least none that we know of). Souls don't transmigrate, unless you count the EU Sideous ghost possessing clone bodies and attempting to possess the body of a child. But I don't know if invasive bodily possession by immortal disembodied spirits is part of Hinduism OR Buddhism (if it is, feel free to correct me here).

The idea of "becoming one with the Force" sounds like a kind of drop in the ocean type deal, but we know that retaining your identity is possible and in fact desirable (at least if the good guys can "break the laws of the universe" with impunity then that's the message it's sending).

Now before the prequels I kind of assumed from Star Wars's point of view, people born without the ability to use the Force were kind of screwed. They die, and that's it. Only "Jedi" get a chance to live forever (barring any unseen elements like God, Heaven, etc as in Earth religious concepts). But then in ROTS Yoda's speech about "those who transform into the Force" has a strong vibe of referring not just to other Jedi. The idea that the Force binds the galaxy together also suggests that it's not just a select few who can survive their own deaths. If this were Gnosticism, we could imagine that anyone could use the Force if properly trained, but it seems the gift is inborn, so perhaps not. Perhaps the universe is "unfair" and not everyone gets to live forever. Perhaps it's rather lonely in "jedi heaven" with only three friends hanging around. Or perhaps it's just one of those things... people who get there, to them it's a surprise and they can't always or won't always "let the secret out" to others. Maybe jedi heaven is for jedi but there's other "heavens" out there or other modes of afterlife.

Perhaps the Stormies who get shot in the movie end up in Disposable Troops Heaven? Their lives are pretty much hell as it is, what with their thankless shifts, getting ordered around by evil leaders and slaughtered mercilessly by hero characters, those guys could use a break.

The Force is an independent energy source from individual beings, but each being seems to have a sort of energy thing to them as well ("luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."). We're assuming of course that the info presented in the movies about the Force is correct. I can't say for the interpretations offered by the EU.

Solauren wrote:Actually, the Vong were not so much without the Force as they were locked away from it. Much the same way Naomi Sunrider looked Ulic from the Force.

In this case, the vong's home world stripped the entire race of the ability to access or be affected by the Force.

The god of their planet took away their ability to use the Force because they sinned by relying on technology, wasn't that right? Or was that dismissed as a superstition?

I thought too that it was discovered that the Vong did use the Force, just on a different "Frequencey" than any the Jedi or the Sith were familiar with, so they just had to adjust some dials and they could sense them like anything else.

But then I didn't read the books, so I could be misremembering that...

I seriously think some of you to not to take the fact that its based on religion as a whole to mean its every religion in one... I still say that the Force is alot like Religious forces in our world. We know near nothing, only personal interpretations of personal experiences. The "Jedi crossing back" isn't "immortality", no Jedi could use it indefinitely. When everything dies, it becomes one with the Force (masters are the ones who can however literally "Fade" into the force when they die, IE: Obi Wan "vanishing".) However everything that dies becomes one with the force, because thats the cycle of life. The series makes it pretty clear the the Force is a matter of personal perspective; you never see any one person with the same view as any other, even within the same faction.

Its sort of how in KOTORII how the Handmaiden asks you to describe the force. All the answers are essentially true because it DOES depends on one's view of life and the force and how they use it.

A jedi master can contact the other side, but this isnt' meant to be something to rely on. Jedi on the other side can only council and teach a little, but total reliance on them is foolish. That'd be letting them live your life, and the "Masters on the 'Other side' " wouldn't want that, minus the Dark side users.

I don't think any of the masters have described being part of the Force, but when everyone dies its been said they become "one with the force."

Actually i dont think the Force corrisponds to any Earth religion. I asked the question cause i think, and *smacks forehead* i should have said this, the Force in SW is a religion in and of itself. A 'God' in and of itself, completely seperate from any Earth religion.

I mean, i think it's perfectly reasonable, just from what i've seen in the films mind you, to say the Force appears to have some kind of awareness of it's own. It 'chose' Anakin, and appearantly not just at random because IF he had to wipe out the Jedi, then teh Sith by killing Palpatine, and his son was to form the New Jedi Order (in other words if the theories about the Chosen One are correct) then the choice of Anakin, who would father Luke, was not a random one. It was a carely thought out decision.

I think the Force, is like the 'soul' in SW too though, as i said above.

So i mean not to imply really that ANY Earth religion is related to teh Force, in fact i meant to imply that the Force is, in it's setting, a viable 'religion' on it's own. And more than that, it has a tangible, easily measured effect too, 'miracles' if you will.

If i were to try and tack it down, i think the Force is mostly closer to something like chi or Tao than anything else.

It doesn't correspond, but Lucas based a lot of aspects of the Force, mostly philosophical, on Zen Buddhism and Taoism.

I don't agree that the Force is anything like a soul or lifeforce. It seems more like an expansion of faith that allows for a direct connection to God or the Divine.

Oops, I forgot a "to not to" in my post.

Knife wrote:

18-Till-I-Die wrote:Oh and, also, what is this 'Unified Force/Living Force' debate i've heard about?

A debate into the workings and use of the Force, mentioned by Qui Jon himself in TPM. The living Force is the thought that the Force is the 'life force that life creates, makes it grow.' While the unifying Force is the one that 'binds the universe together'.

Both seem to have a place with the Jedi order, but it is unknow AFAIK if the Sith subscribe to it though.

If the author may be permitted the vanity of quoting from himself:

The Dark Side Sourcebook notes that even before the execution of Order 66 and Palpatine's acclamation as Galactic Emperor, he had come into contact with the Prophets of the Dark Side, a schismatic Sith cult said by "The Dark Forces Saga, Part 3: Two Peas in a Pod" to have been founded long before by Darth Millenial, an apostate Apprentice from the Sith Order who rejected Darth Bane's Rule of Two in favor of Lord Kaan's Rule by the Strong. Sidious may have been intrigued by the Prophetic theology of the Force, which they called the Dark Force; The Dark Side Sourcebook says that Master Jedi Kadann believed that the prophesied "balance of the Force" required an equilibrium of the light side and the dark side, and this probably reflects the Dark Force theology, as Kadann became the Supreme Prophet of the Dark Side after leaving the Jedi Order. Just as there were two major theological schools of thought among the Jedi Knights – viz., Qui-Gonn Jinn's Living Force and Yoda's Unifying Force – , there were at least three theological schools among the Sith Lords – viz., Sidious's Universal Force, Maul's Living Force, and Tyranus's Balanced Force; although Kadann's Dark Force is subtly different from Sidious's Universal Force, it bears a striking resemblance to Tyranus's school of thought, which the Revised Core Rulebook explains as having held that "one can draw from both sides of the Force equally – light and dark – to achieve perfect balance." Thus, the Prophets of the Dark Side adhere to an interpretation of the Force that is generally compatible with that of the Sith Order, and Sidious was apparently fascinated enough that he went through the effort of convincing the Prophets to serve him.

Darth Maul's adherence to the Living Force school is explicitly mentioned in The New Essential Guide to Characters, whereas Darth Sidious's Universal Force (the term is not explicitly used, this author having coined it for convenience's sake) is described in Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter. As noted in the preceding text, Darth Tyranus's Balanced Force (another coinage of this author rather than an official term) is described by the Revised Core Rulebook, and the Prophets' Dark Force is described by "The Dark Forces Saga" on the Wizards of the Coast website. Evidently there is room for different theological schools of thought in the Sith Order, provided that all the fundamental dogmata are accepted. This flies in the face of Obi-Wan Kenobi's claim that only Sith Lords deal in absolutes, as the Sith Lords have actually shown more theological diversity than the Jedi Knights, who seem generally hostile to anything outside their established Living Force and Unifying Force traditions.

This sort of carries over to another question.. do the Jedi have religion? Do the Sith? If so, what is that religion?


The Force corresponds to supernatural phenomena. Though I guess some will argue that the Force is not supernatural, but "natural." It's unusual but, "natural" I guess.

Kurgan wrote:This sort of carries over to another question.. do the Jedi have religion? Do the Sith? If so, what is that religion?


The Force corresponds to supernatural phenomena. Though I guess some will argue that the Force is not supernatural, but "natural." It's unusual but, "natural" I guess.

Well Yes and No. the Jedi and Sith philosofies have been refered to as religions by non-Force users, but the Force is more "real" then any of the gods in known Earth Religons, so...

Kurgan wrote:The god of their planet took away their ability to use the Force because they sinned by relying on technology, wasn't that right? Or was that dismissed as a superstition?

I thought too that it was discovered that the Vong did use the Force, just on a different "Frequencey" than any the Jedi or the Sith were familiar with, so they just had to adjust some dials and they could sense them like anything else.

But then I didn't read the books, so I could be misremembering that...

IIRC, the Vong were stripped of their Force-sense as punishment for being too warlike.

Lord Revan wrote:

Kurgan wrote:This sort of carries over to another question.. do the Jedi have religion? Do the Sith? If so, what is that religion?


The Force corresponds to supernatural phenomena. Though I guess some will argue that the Force is not supernatural, but "natural." It's unusual but, "natural" I guess.

Well Yes and No. the Jedi and Sith philosofies have been refered to as religions by non-Force users, but the Force is more "real" then any of the gods in known Earth Religons, so...

Well, taking that line of logic, then no, the Force is not like the soul or religion, faith or the anything like that, the Force is science (or rather the Force is natural phenomena, and science recognizes it as such, like gravity or electricity), and the Jedi/Sith are scientists (because they understand it). The non-force users who dismiss the force are ignorant, like those who say the world is flat, or that evolution doesn't happen.

Then again a person who believed in God would say that God is obviously real to them, just like the Force in Star Wars is to Jedi. But your comment has the support of the idea that even those who don't believe in the Force are affected by it, despite their scoffing. Of course a person of faith would say that God affects a person's life whether they believe in that deity or not, etc. But we don't have scientists in our world running some test and going "well, I've proven God objectively exists, but I still refuse to believe in him/her/it".

To cut through all this, when people say the Force in Star Wars is religion, I think the most likely thing they're trying to say is that "If we assume religious experience is real, then for the characters in Star Wars, that's their equivalent." Obviously in Star Wars, the Force is not wishful thinking or unprovable, subjective, or speculation. Those who disbelieve in the Force are shown to be ignorant. The "beliefs" of Jedi/Sith with regards to how one deals with the Force and their philosophies of life to have precedents in real life religions and philosophies, so there's the other connection. There is no one religion that's identical to the Force of Star Wars or its practitioners, but rather a combination. Hope that made sense...

Darth Yoshi wrote:

Kurgan wrote:The god of their planet took away their ability to use the Force because they sinned by relying on technology, wasn't that right? Or was that dismissed as a superstition?

I thought too that it was discovered that the Vong did use the Force, just on a different "Frequencey" than any the Jedi or the Sith were familiar with, so they just had to adjust some dials and they could sense them like anything else.

But then I didn't read the books, so I could be misremembering that...

IIRC, the Vong were stripped of their Force-sense as punishment for being too warlike.

So they never learned their lesson, huh?

Was the story "true" or was it just a legend from their culture?

Not sure. Zonama Sekot deduced it from the knowledge it had, plus what it learned from Nen Yim. It's probably true, but it's all speculation on Sekot's part.