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Im sure this has been mentioned before but its been bothering me

no is there any proof on what hte Dark Side Shroud is in the prequel movies
Yoda says the Shroud of the Dark Side has fallen, to me he means that he knows the Sith are out there but he cant figure out who, and to me that means only the Jedi are looking to find the Sith master and the sith master is hidding his prescence, is there any proof that the Dark Shroud means that the powers of the Jedi are hurt? like in their ability to use the force to fight or anything? I believe it just means the Jedi couldnt find who the Sith master was, nothing more

The fact that an order of precognitive magi, couldnt detect a fellow precognitive magi not two feet away, says something was seriously screwing with their powers. To me, anyway. I mean, they were like TWO INCHES from Palpatine and they never even felt a HINT of the Sith asshole within? Come one, not even Yoda? I mean, something was obviously very wrong.

MAce states in AotC that the JEdi's ability to use the force has diminished.

Manus Celer Dei wrote:MAce states in AotC that the JEdi's ability to use the force has diminished.

But is this the 'shroud' or that the Sith 'evolved' in the use of the Force while the Jedi where stagnate?

Knife wrote:

Manus Celer Dei wrote:MAce states in AotC that the JEdi's ability to use the force has diminished.

But is this the 'shroud' or that the Sith 'evolved' in the use of the Force while the Jedi where stagnate?

I always thought it was a Sith technique that the Sith developed over their millenia in exile, a force power specifically designed through a thousand years of study and training that Palpatine could use to throw the Order off balance enough to destroy them. The Sith aren't necissarily more powerful in the force overall, just more specialized. Just a theory though.

It was, or appears, to be more than just stuff like 'evolution and stagnation'.

Just think about this for a second...out of the thousands of Jedi, all of them precognitive to some degree, not a SINGLE ONE OF THEM but, maybe, Yoda could foresee the great purge and NONE of them at all were able to detect Palpatine until it was too late.

Something, some physical barrier, was blocking their natural Force sensory abilities, precog and telepathy. I would presume that Palpatine had learned to apply the Force to create a literal shroud or 'field' of darkside power that blotted out the lightside of the Force's ability to detect it. Like a chamelion's color changing, it is most likely a defense mechanism designed to protect against the larger number of Jedi vs Sith.

Noble Ire wrote:

Knife wrote:

Manus Celer Dei wrote:MAce states in AotC that the JEdi's ability to use the force has diminished.

But is this the 'shroud' or that the Sith 'evolved' in the use of the Force while the Jedi where stagnate?

I always thought it was a Sith technique that the Sith developed over their millenia in exile, a force power specifically designed through a thousand years of study and training that Palpatine could use to throw the Order off balance enough to destroy them. The Sith aren't necissarily more powerful in the force overall, just more specialized. Just a theory though.

Your right, in that it could be both. I subscribe to the notion that the 'shroud' is more a thing of circumstance than anything else. The central 'power' of the Jedi is the prediction of events. But we also know that Jedi can detect and cloak their presence in the Force.

Since Palpatine was central in the events in a significant way, yet was skilled enough to hide himself, the Jedi could tell that something terrible this way comes, but since they couldn't see Palpatine, they couldn't tell how this horrible thing was to come about.

Since Palpatine was responsible for so much going on in the galaxy, from a civil war to a secret army to the plotting the destruction of the Jedi and the downfall fo the entire galactic goverment, not being able to see what he was doing, due to his 'cloak', the Jedi missed out on seeing so much evil coming their way.

Basically, Palpatine created a blindspot and that blindspot was the epicenter of so much activity, that the Jedi were esencially blind to most of the happenings around them.

18-Till-I-Die wrote:It was, or appears, to be more than just stuff like 'evolution and stagnation'.

Just think about this for a second...out of the thousands of Jedi, all of them precognitive to some degree, not a SINGLE ONE OF THEM but, maybe, Yoda could foresee the great purge and NONE of them at all were able to detect Palpatine until it was too late.

Something, some physical barrier, was blocking their natural Force sensory abilities, precog and telepathy. I would presume that Palpatine had learned to apply the Force to create a literal shroud or 'field' of darkside power that blotted out the lightside of the Force's ability to detect it. Like a chamelion's color changing, it is most likely a defense mechanism designed to protect against the larger number of Jedi vs Sith.

See my post right after yours, I think that Palpy cloaking himself created a blindspot for the pre cog since he was *to use a EU term* shatterpoint.

As I mentioned in a thread before, the Sith are about the evolution and development of the methods of the forebearers. An apprentice kills his master after learning all he knows, and also the master's weakness (the one that would lead to his downful and the Apprentice's rising). This works to slowly over time eliminate flaws within the Order, and cultivate abilities and the like, I'd think.

Palpatine has managed to mask his identity using the force, an interesting thing indeed. However even near the beginning the Jedi just... disliked... Palpatine. They thought he was untrustworthy, crooked, but they didn't see how far it went...

Luke masks his presence from the Emperor for a time in ROTJ, so the power's precedance in the trilogy was set long ago... even if one wants to assume that sensing the presence of other force powered beings has limits to its range (why Yoda and Obi-Wan can hide from the Empire for 20 years on a single planet each).

The Jedi eventually do sense "the dark side surrounding the chancellor" in ROTS, but by then the cards are all in place for their downfall.

The 'Shroud' is, I have always felt, kind of like the missing planet in AOTC. Unless you know its there you would never miss it, but its very absence leaves an impression. One would have to look for the impresion instead of the planet.

If this "shroud" is a Force power of some sort, its the sort that are largely complex to create (According to the ROTS novelization, the Clone Wars were a major factor in its growth), and cannot be easily manipulated (if Palpy could easily manipulate this shroud - assuming he is in fact the "source" generating it, for example, he should have been easily able to shut down Windu and everyone else. Same with Yoda. Why couldn't he dampen yoda's abilities down to the point he was helpless? Yoda is clearly not as strong as dozens or hundreds or even thousands of Jedi.)

The Sith "created" it in an indirect fashion, manipulated events to perpetuate and expand it (including through the use of their powers), but I don't really consider it an "innate" Force ability rather than the development of a "condition" in the Force. An imbalancec if you will.

(If you prefer to think of it another way: Consider the overall "potential" of the Force as a finite resivoir of capability. On one end of this "resivoir" we have the light side, and on another the Dark side. Given a roughly equal parity, each side can draw on approximately "half" the overall potential at any given time. Given that the Force is created by all living things, we can assume that everything living in the galaxy contributes to both "sides" of the resivoir, both light and dark (through their actions, thoughts, feelings, whatnot.)

Now, For a given number of force users in the Galaxy of both sides, the "overall" use of Force potential would not be any greater than what is available in the "light" or "dark" resivoirs. Individual limitations and strengths will vary depending on user, but in general, the sum total of force use at any given instant cannot exceed this maximum.

So what happens when we get an imbalance? When something like the Clone Wars happen - hate, fear, anger, and aggression all become dominant. The "pool" of the Force in the galaxy starts to shift, and become darker. The Sith (esp Palpatine)( have clearly been manipulating events to bring this about.. so they did in essence.. "create" this shroud. And what is the result?

The percentages of light/dark side "potential" on each end of the overall pool shift - a greater percentage of that potential becomes available to the Dark side, while a proportionally smaller amount becomes available to the light side. And given that the sum total of Jedi capabilities cannot exceed that "maximum" potential (such as when you have thousands of Jedi across the galaxy fighting and whatnot.) - the result is that, ,for the most part, the individual Jedis weaken. (It may also be psosible, but unproven, that skill or effiienciy of usage decreases as the potential goes down - maybe as a side effect or countermeasure of the weakening - in essence it becoems harder for Jedi to tap into levels of power they formerly had a much easier time achieving prior to the shroud.)

By contrast, the Sith (and Darksider's in general) potentail for Force usage and strength grows (to within the limits of given capacities.) Given the approrpaite levels of amplification and enhancement availalbe (force melds, life draining/stealing, etc.) this greater total 'pool" can be accessed (and in general, more Darksiders can also utilize their full abilities without exceeding the maximum potential.)

Almost entirely speculation, though. Thoughts?

I been doing some research into taoist yin/yang philosophy as the Shroud of the Dark side echoes something I saw in a movie that was made 2 decades back.............

I haven't consolidated that yet, but Connor, you won't mind you & me bouncing ideas off each other?

18-Till-I-Die wrote:The fact that an order of precognitive magi, couldnt detect a fellow precognitive magi not two feet away, says something was seriously screwing with their powers. To me, anyway. I mean, they were like TWO INCHES from Palpatine and they never even felt a HINT of the Sith asshole within? Come one, not even Yoda? I mean, something was obviously very wrong.

Ben Skywalker could hide himself from the Force so that not even his parents could detect him. So I dont think its only a dark side power.

Okay, basically, I was rewatching mountains of zu where the main plot was that "Blood Demon" was arising from slumber and would become triumphant, and it was up to the two main characters to stop him and save humanity.

There's a couple of plot points in that movie that sparked some thoughts about the Dark Side.

1. The Blood Demon was arising from slumber, because of the stars. However, the reason why he was becoming more powerful was the conflict during the Warring States period, and the reason why he couldn't be stopped was because no one would unite to fight against him.

Perhaps the Dark Shroud could be described as a condition of the Force itself as it swung towards destruction, or the Dark Side. Yoda and Windu discussed this in the script for AOTC, where they could only probe the future by using the Dark Side. While it was meant to suggest that the Dark Side was rising in ascendency over the Dark, what made it so? It could very well be that the corruption, the discord, the violence and misery that has been emerging in the Republic being a cause. Since the Jedi were needed to quell such troubles, the very fact that their powers were being diminished just when they needed it most suggested something of an balancing act. The Jedi powers came from the Light Side, which was good when everything was peaceful and tranquil. To maintain that power, they needed to prevent the troubles of the galaxy from "feeding" the Dark side, yet, by AOTC, the Jedi has slowly become weaker and weaker as the Republic crumbles. As they grow weaker, they are unable to stop the violence and misery, which in turns feeds the Dark Side more, weakening the Jedi powers further.

Perhaps the Shroud of the Dark Side may be described as a Yang deficiency, as opposed to the Excess Yin it appears to be. Instead of being the Dark Side in Ascendence, it should be described as the Light becoming so weak, that the Dark Side was all that remains.



2. Another keynote in the movie was the constant infighting, burcreacury and rivalry between factions, both in the warlord states, humans and martial artistes sects. The fighting between Yuan Biao and Sammo Hung, the fighting of the two opposing generals, fighting it out even when destruction looms, the rivalry between a monk and a taoist over who is more "noble", the rules of the Ice palace which were red tape, preventing the saving of the taoist and the monk.......... The movie ended off by the "merging" of the two swords and their swordfighters, saying that it was this which gave them the strength to overwhelm Blood Demon..

One should note that the Republic is similarly plagued by such discord and stubborn red tape. We should note that by manipulating such discord and the burcreacury, Palpatine is slowly concentrating more power onto himself and making it difficult for others to topple him. One should also note that the Clone wars was a DELIBERATE act by Palpatine. He purposely precipitated the Clone Wars and acted to prevent Count Dooku from winning a decisive battle.(Dark Rendevous) Considering the effects of the Clone War on the Jedi, it must be wondered whether the shroud is being "made" to grow stronger by the actions and policies of Palpatine, as opposed to just being a Force Power.

Kurgan wrote:Luke masks his presence from the Emperor for a time in ROTJ, so the power's precedance in the trilogy was set long ago... even if one wants to assume that sensing the presence of other force powered beings has limits to its range (why Yoda and Obi-Wan can hide from the Empire for 20 years on a single planet each).

The Jedi eventually do sense "the dark side surrounding the chancellor" in ROTS, but by then the cards are all in place for their downfall.

I feel like an idiot for not distinguishing between the ability to mask one's presence in the force and apparently to "drain" (or weaken somehow) the force powers of those around you. Obviously we've seen other Jedi use the ability to hide, but we've only seen Palpatine able to "weaken" others in the g-level canon. And he can apparently do both at the same time. Apologies.

Kurgan wrote:

Kurgan wrote:Luke masks his presence from the Emperor for a time in ROTJ, so the power's precedance in the trilogy was set long ago... even if one wants to assume that sensing the presence of other force powered beings has limits to its range (why Yoda and Obi-Wan can hide from the Empire for 20 years on a single planet each).

The Jedi eventually do sense "the dark side surrounding the chancellor" in ROTS, but by then the cards are all in place for their downfall.

I feel like an idiot for not distinguishing between the ability to mask one's presence in the force and apparently to "drain" (or weaken somehow) the force powers of those around you. Obviously we've seen other Jedi use the ability to hide, but we've only seen Palpatine able to "weaken" others in the g-level canon. And he can apparently do both at the same time. Apologies.

Again, as I mentioned before, the greater powers of the Jedi seem to be precog, so they can act instead of react. Palpatine, being the center of events, hid himself and thus disguised the episcenter of events, forcing the Jedi to react.

Think of it as a pond. You're in charge of making sure that the waves of the pond don't fuck up anything on the shore line. Palpatine is in the pond some where making some serious waves, yet he has cloaked himself from your view.

You can see waves coming right before they hit the shore line, other times you don't and just have to deal with the mess. But you can't see where the waves originate or where they will strike up again, so you are reduced to waiting for them to happen and try your best to stop it in the limited time you can see them, or just clean up the mess after it's over.

See thats what i thought, the Sith have found a way to mask their prescence rather well. More than Luke did, see for Luke all he had to do was mask it from 1 or 2 people. Palpatine had to do if for thousands,

Though i never thought of the people of the galaxy effecting this resovoir, its quite good

now the thing is though, besided Mace's quote that hte Jedi powers are dimminished, does he mean that their powers in general or their powers to sense the Sith? I mean to me from what i see in the movies and read in the books is that the Jedi really have no trouble doing all their fancy moves and such its just there having trouble sensing the Sith

Tychu wrote:
now the thing is though, besided Mace's quote that hte Jedi powers are dimminished, does he mean that their powers in general or their powers to sense the Sith? I mean to me from what i see in the movies and read in the books is that the Jedi really have no trouble doing all their fancy moves and such its just there having trouble sensing the Sith

Like I said; I believe the really powerful part of being a Jedi/Sith/Force user is the ability to see the future or divine coming events. Tapping into fate, as it were.

Jumping up and down and doing back fips looks neat, but seeing the future and acting to change it is more powerful than jumping straight up 20 meters. It goes again to my analogy of action v reation.

If the Clone Wars were a factor in the 'shroud', maybe creating chaos in the galaxy also creates chaos in the Force, making it harder to use or direct? The Jedi would be used to the regular pulse of the galaxy, and not the hugely complex, swirling war that engulfed the galaxy. Oh, and wouldn't there be more 'shatterpoints' in critical times than in more sedate periods?

Stark wrote:If the Clone Wars were a factor in the 'shroud', maybe creating chaos in the galaxy also creates chaos in the Force, making it harder to use or direct? The Jedi would be used to the regular pulse of the galaxy, and not the hugely complex, swirling war that engulfed the galaxy. Oh, and wouldn't there be more 'shatterpoints' in critical times than in more sedate periods?

Probably. Plus, the old adage 'the best defense is a good offense' comes to mind. If the Jedi are out fighting a war (and many Jedi becoming casualties of said war) the less that will concentrate of where the Sith Lord is and the less to fight him when they do find him.

As the novel says, the Clone Wars was the Jedi trap. And the best Jedi trap is the one where you win/win and the Jedi loose.

I read in one of Publius's fine papers about Palpatine that in order to mask himself in the force, he used a technique taken from one of the myriad groups that uses a variant of the Force- some type of technique that masks oneself in the Force. That may be related to the Dark Side Cloud, but not necessarily.

Also, the RoTS novelization basically confirms that the Clone Wars have been fueling the cloud of the Dark Side; according to the novelization, violence and war "pour darkness into the force, further obstructing the Jedi's abilities."