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The Grand Admiral defeated the New Republic fleet at Bilbringi and survived the assassination atempt on his life by the Noghri bodyguard who was shot for treason in the event.
With the bulk of New Republic fleet defeated the road to the core systems and their huge industries and shipyards are open with very little resistance.
In matter of few weeks they all fall before Thrawns might.

But rumors of the Reborn Emperor comes to the ears of Thrawn just few weeks after the battle of Bilbringi. He doesn't know if that is the real Emperor or not, nor does he care, but he does see him as a threat to HIS empire he wants to build, so with the newly conquered territories and industries he prepares to bring his Empire to wage war against Palpatine who sees Thrawn just as an Imperial renegade. All warlords, admirals, captians, Moffs who supported Thrawn in his campaign against the New Republic will still give him their support.

Thrawn sends in spies to the deep core (assuming he can do it) to find out about their fleet strength and capabilities and other Imperial Moffs and admirals who are allied to Palpatine.
The time for Palpatines war machine to go to war against Thrawn will be roughly one year.

Who will win???

The Emperor will Force Storm Thrawn's fleet.

The end

Solauren wrote:The Emperor will Force Storm Thrawn's fleet.

The end

If he knows where it is.

Without bringing Acts of Forcewank (TM) by Palpatine into this, I believe the majority of Imperial resources in that era had retreated into his sphere of influence in the Core. Thrawn only had something like a quarter of the former Imperial military strength at his command, possibly less.

While he could possibly defeat Palpatine's forces, I doubt he would be capable of dealing with the Eclipses, and the World Devastators would be a *major* pain in the ass.

Thrawn was scrounging for Dreadnaughts, Palpatine had the resources to build a pair of Eclipse SSDs, World Devastators, and eventually the Galaxy Gun. Palpatine Reborn hands down.

Given that what Palpatine had at hand, versus even what the NR had(which Thrawn wouldn't even in a year's span)?

Thrawn dies horribly when faced against a fleet of craft he has no counter to(the World Devastaors) and fleets much larger then his own. Strategy is all good and dandy, but brute force can make up for a shitload.

Thrawn would probably be a major annoyance for Palpatine, however IIRC Palpy has got the vast majority of the resources that were left at his disposal, including several (not sure how many exactly) superweapons at his disposal, the Eclipse(s) and World Devasators are merely one part that we have seen that he has access to.

For what i remember Palpatine's got the Galaxy Gun, and some form of Teleporter at his disposal as well. Teleporter has a massive range, IIRC it took Luke from Coruscant to his deep core strong hold.

Thrawn's big fleets were centered around small numbers of ISDs. Wankatine has Force storms, superweapons, and countless Star Destroyers and even larger ships on his side. There's no way even Thrawn could overcome these odds.

Mr CorSec wrote:.For what i remember Palpatine's got the Galaxy Gun, and some form of Teleporter at his disposal as well. Teleporter has a massive range, IIRC it took Luke from Coruscant to his deep core strong hold.

That wasn't a teleportation device, that was Palpatine's own Force powers. Just one of the reasons the DE Emperor is called Wankatine around here.

The Palpatine clones had a vast fleet of heavy capital ships, possibly a significant fraction or even majority of all such ships in the Imperial navy, explaining why Thawn had nothing heavier then an ISD. Because of this huge disparity in firepower, there is just no way he can win, even discounting superweapons and force powers.

Elheru Aran wrote:While he could possibly defeat Palpatine's forces, I doubt he would be capable of dealing with the Eclipses, and the World Devastators would be a *major* pain in the ass.

Especially considering that Thrawn's permanent flagship was an old ISD.

GADM Thrawn is badly outmatched in the event of a war between his forces and the forces of the resurrected Galactic Emperor. In the first place, Thrawn's naval forces are badly outnumbered and outgunned by those of Palpatine the Undying, whose navy includes a very large number of multikilometer warships (Thrawn's navy is not known to include any), to say nothing of his more creative weapons such as the World Devastators and the Galaxy Gun. Furthermore, Thrawn's forces are at a colossal intelligence disadvantage: not only are all their doctrines, training procedures, and tables of organization and equipment known to Palpatine's forces, not only does Palpatine know exactly where Thrawn's clones are being decanted, not only are all of Thrawn's forces vulnerable to slicing by Palpatine's forces (Mara Jade ably demonstrated Thrawn's vulnerability to an agent knowing some of Palpatine's secrets in Dark Force Rising), but Thrawn must also deal with the fact that his forces are riddled with wreckers, saboteurs, and agents in place, as revealed in the Dark Empire Sourcebook. Even discounting Palpatine's dark side powers, Thrawn has little chance; using his in-built computer back-doors, Palpatine can very easily locate the Chimaera and then destroy it from half a galaxy away with a well-placed shot from the Galaxy Gun.

Gah... Can't we just pretend that DE just never existed?

I say, Thrawn outmaunuvers Sidious and captures forces at all encounters and wins in the long run, just to be different.

havokeff wrote:Gah... Can't we just pretend that DE just never existed?

I say, Thrawn outmaunuvers Sidious and captures forces at all encounters and wins in the long run, just to be different.

Isn't ROTS a nice proof Sidious might just have the brains for what he did in DE?

People can we take a step back here?

Palpitine had a powerful force yes, but there is no evidence that it was the be all and end all. The New Republic was able to defeat these fleets of powerful capital ships in many battles through DE. I grant you stuff like the World Devistators were very effective. But even before the NR was able to bring its own cruisers like the MC-90 online in large numbers, the NRDF was able to stand upto and defeat them many times.

Do we have ANY *solid* numbers of just HOW many ships Palpitine had and what classes? The most infamous picture I remember is from the DE comic which had all those ships orbiting Byss which Saxton gets so many of his classes from. Do we KNOW how many of each of those ships he had? Because in many of the major battles in DE, Palpitine hardly had as many of them as the NRDF had ships or anything.

Of course the NRDF had many advantages Thrawn simply doesn't have. Including many more forces to play with, shipyards solidly under their control that are pumping out ships of increasing power (an MC-90 can stand upto a frigen Executor for a while afterall), newer and better Starfighters like the E-Wing comming online and so on. Palpitine stupidly appeared to simply chase around the New Republic Government from base to base, wasting firepower and ships in every engagement while the Republics overwhelming logistical adnvatange slowly turned the tide.

Not to mention the Lusankya quietly having its final refits finished.

But that said, Thrawn also has many advantages. He is smart. For all the Thrawn wanking I see going on, the fact is that he knows Palpitine better then almost anyone else, including Palpitine. He also may well know perfectly about Byss and the superweapons, including Eclipse. He has his own infastructure that was going full out and the clone facility of course. As well as in production cloaking technology.

I think Thrawn has a good chance to hold Palpitine off. He isn't going to be so stupid as to charge into a full scale brawl with the heavy ships for the fun of it. But in the end, Palpitine will probably just overwhelm him with the destruction of his infastructure.


Now an even more implausable (if more interesting) scenario is what if Thrwan at around the time of Bilbringi (the cloning facility is still destroyed) sues for peace and the Emprire gains a great deal of autonomy as an overall part of the NR...then together they fight an enraged Palpitine, with Ackbar and Thrawn together leading the forces...

Yes, Chris let's take a step back.

1. They were unable to stop a single World Devastor, until Luke destroyed one for them. And this is with a fleet attacking a MAJOR world. Not some back water spitball planet...but hey, Thrawn will come up with something.

2. They were on the run from both the Galaxy Gun and the Wave force of the Emperor. And they still had a greater fleet then Thrawn ever had.

3. Victories and stalemates were from planets doing one time resistances because they had something the Executor wanted.Or did you forget that The Emperor took back more then half the NR territory.

So please tell me, where these great tides of turning, that Thrawn who best ship was what again? An ISD....oh yeah, oh wait, the Lusanyanka refit you ask?!

Guess it wasn't in time to even begin to use against the reborn Emperor.

Oh wait, you go "Give me numbers!" Fine, with two ISDs and at least over 50-60 cruisers couldn't take down a single World Devastator. They go to say there are hundreds to thousands of ship hovering over Byss, a fast count includes easily around a few hundred, which is more then Thrawn was even scrounging for. What makes you fucking think Thrawn is going to take down the 11 Palpatine starts with, let alone the four Soverign Class or the two Ecilispe class?

Oh wait, he knows Palpatine. And? Oh wait...Palpatine actually planned for Thrawn's death, oh damn must mean Thrawn knew about this and just let the dagger get shoved into his chest.(And yes, it's in the DE sourcebook)

Doesn't matter if he doesn't want to go full scale brawl, the instant he has to face either of those resources he's fucked beyond words. So don't go into this bullshit that he knows Palaps and isn't stupid. This isn't on any equal or level plain. This is one particularly smart guy with a stick versus a slightly less smarter guy with a fucking battalion.

Ghost Rider wrote:Yes, Chris let's take a step back.

1. They were unable to stop a single World Devastor, until Luke destroyed one for them. And this is with a fleet attacking a MAJOR world. Not some back water spitball planet...but hey, Thrawn will come up with something.

I never said they were easy targets to kill nor that the NRDF walked over them. But they aint magicly invulurable anymore then an Executor or other large ship is. They are just a glorified construction droid afterall, unless I forgot that they had some kind of unobtanium super shield or something....

2. They were on the run from both the Galaxy Gun and the Wave force of the Emperor. And they still had a greater fleet then Thrawn ever had.

The 'wave force'? Sorry I'm not sure what that is. If you mean a Force Storm, its a localised thing. And the Galaxy Gun while its a good terror weapon, in a Galaxy of uncounted billions of stars and systems, its not a very effective superweapon in strategic terms.

3. Victories and stalemates were from planets doing one time resistances because they had something the Executor wanted.Or did you forget that The Emperor took back more then half the NR territory.

You have a quote about that? Because I know Palpitine took back Courscant (which then fell into a full scale civil war as various warlords started at each other) but I don't remember anything saying that the Empire managed to take back half the Galaxy. Insomuch as the existing Imperial systems increased *dramaticly* in size. But I concede I'm not that familiar with Dark Empire. But the entire Dark Empire saga only happened over a single year IIRC. I somehow dobut the NR was pushed out so easily, only to walk back in so easily in such a short time.

So please tell me, where these great tides of turning, that Thrawn who best ship was what again? An ISD....oh yeah, oh wait, the Lusanyanka refit you ask?!

Thrawns best ship may have been only an ISD but its hardly anything to snear at. The whole fucking POINT of my question was to asertain HOW MANY SHIPS PALPITINE HAD of WHAT CLASS. So we could MAKE a substantive judgement. ALL I have seen so far is everyone jerking off over Palpitines 'super fleet of DOOM' without bothering to provide something useful like say numbers or classes or anything...

Guess it wasn't in time to even begin to use against the reborn Emperor.

Wasn't it? It was operational at the end of Isards Revenge and unless I'm mistaken, it did show up under General Antillies command in Dark Empire (or was it Crimson Empire...which is the same thing IIRC)...

Oh wait, you go "Give me numbers!" Fine, with two ISDs and at least over 50-60 cruisers couldn't take down a single World Devastator.

Which unless I'm mistaken was being protected quite well by its screening fleet. Of course I admit freely I havn't read DE, just seen some of the comic pages at a friends house a few times. But is there any reason they are apparently indestructable? Some kind of armour or shield technology? In which case why the hell didn't someone build a few Battlecruisers out of the same technology? Or is it simply that the NR fleet was too busy and simply couldn't deliver enough firepower?

They go to say there are hundreds to thousands of ship hovering over Byss,

Which is nice but as it could include anything from TIE fighters on up, immaterial.

a fast count includes easily around a few hundred, which is more then Thrawn was even scrounging for.

Of what classes? How many of them are big superships? How many small escorts? Can you even TELL for half of them?

What makes you fucking think Thrawn is going to take down the 11 Palpatine starts with, let alone the four Soverign Class or the two Ecilispe class?

Funny how the NRFD managed to take down those four Sovereigns (or capture them IIRC) in the background isn't it? But of course its impossible for Thrawn to think up any kind of plan or strategy to do the same of course.

Oh wait, he knows Palpatine. And?

*sigh*

The point is that Thrawns MO was to study individuals carefuly and direct his attacks against flaws in their strategic and tactical thinking they often didn't know even existed. Palpitine is a political leader, not a warlord. Thrawn has had plenty of time to study Palpitine to be able to anticipate him to a great deal. And thats not Thrawnwank, he has shown an ability to do this with people and races he has never even met.

Oh wait...Palpatine actually planned for Thrawn's death,

So Palpitine had a contingency plan and/or wanted to get rid of Thrawn. Big fucking deal in the current context of this thread where he HASN'T gotten rid of him and they are apparently going to war.

oh damn must mean Thrawn knew about this and just let the dagger get shoved into his chest.(And yes, it's in the DE sourcebook)

You have the quote handy? Regardless, its irrelevent to the current topic as he was not stabbed....

Its clear you don't want to actualy bother to provide useful data which I was asking for to try and formulate an opinoin. I just wanted to say "Thrawn had X ships in his fleet made up of Y while Palpitine had A and B". Then make a substantive judgement on it.

But your so clearly convinved that Palpitine has the uber fleet to end all uber fleets and you don't need to give sources or evidence, so I'll just accept it and concede the entire argument.

Chris OFarrell wrote:


I never said they were easy targets to kill nor that the NRDF walked over them. But they aint magicly invulurable anymore then an Executor or other large ship is. They are just a glorified construction droid afterall, unless I forgot that they had some kind of unobtanium super shield or something....

Oh but you don't REFUTE the fact that the NR couldn't destroy ONE of them, but Thrawn will with what?

Magic pixie dust?

Or are you just evading because you don't have a fucking answer and threw up a red herring?

The 'wave force'? Sorry I'm not sure what that is. If you mean a Force Storm, its a localised thing. And the Galaxy Gun while its a good terror weapon, in a Galaxy of uncounted billions of stars and systems, its not a very effective superweapon in strategic terms.

You do know near the end the whole intriguing plan of Palpatine of sending thousands of his craft outward from the core is why in DE2 the Alliance was fleeing like bitches.

But hey, Thrawn will counter this with what again?

You have a quote about that? Because I know Palpitine took back Courscant (which then fell into a full scale civil war as various warlords started at each other) but I don't remember anything saying that the Empire managed to take back half the Galaxy. Insomuch as the existing Imperial systems increased *dramaticly* in size. But I concede I'm not that familiar with Dark Empire. But the entire Dark Empire saga only happened over a single year IIRC. I somehow dobut the NR was pushed out so easily, only to walk back in so easily in such a short time.

Did you read DE2?

Or did you forget Executor Sedriss only stopping by one planet because he wanted the wardroids and that's the only reason he didn't slag the place?

Thrawns best ship may have been only an ISD but its hardly anything to snear at. The whole fucking POINT of my question was to asertain HOW MANY SHIPS PALPITINE HAD of WHAT CLASS. So we could MAKE a substantive judgement. ALL I have seen so far is everyone jerking off over Palpitines 'super fleet of DOOM' without bothering to provide something useful like say numbers or classes or anything...

Right, because you still are waving the red herring forgetting the Alliance had a couple ISDs and an accompainded cruiser and support craft that couldn't do jack shit to a single World Devastator.

But yes, Thrawn and his seven ISDs are going to make Palpatine cower.

So please tell me when I said he had Four Soverign and two Eclipse and 11 World Devastators, and so far the numbers look to be at LEAST in the low hundreds of what orbited Byss of craft of ISD and larger.

But yes, I never mentioned any of that you blind idiot....because I'm wanking.

Wasn't it? It was operational at the end of Isards Revenge and unless I'm mistaken, it did show up under General Antillies command in Dark Empire (or was it Crimson Empire...which is the same thing IIRC)...

Crimson Empire is 11 YEARS after HTTE.

Which unless I'm mistaken was being protected quite well by its screening fleet. Of course I admit freely I havn't read DE, just seen some of the comic pages at a friends house a few times. But is there any reason they are apparently indestructable? Some kind of armour or shield technology? In which case why the hell didn't someone build a few Battlecruisers out of the same technology? Or is it simply that the NR fleet was too busy and simply couldn't deliver enough firepower?

You haven't read the fucking thing but you're saying I must be wanking?!

Holy shit...let's end it here, until you do. No point debating when you yourself haven't the ability to refute other then going "Well if you provide a quote!" If you haven't read the thing, you have no idea of scale nor power of what's happening and want the other side to provide you everything all the while you can screech and holler by going "Prove it again!!!!!"

The information I provide was from the visuals in said book as well referenced in the DE sourcebook. If you want to refute me with some real points, get at least the DE book itself, where most of the information comes from.

Literally you're just playing bitch because you don't even know the other side resource and going "Well it could be other things!!!!"

Chris OFarrell wrote: Which is nice but as it could include anything from TIE fighters on up, immaterial.

This from someone who hasn't read it.

Nice pointless slide, hell you yourself don't even know.

Of what classes? How many of them are big superships? How many small escorts? Can you even TELL for half of them?

It's amazing when they have wedge ships, I must be mistaking them for TIEs.

Funny how the NRFD managed to take down those four Sovereigns (or capture them IIRC) in the background isn't it? But of course its impossible for Thrawn to think up any kind of plan or strategy to do the same of course.

Strange they did this YEARS after the demise of Palpatine.

*sigh*

The point is that Thrawns MO was to study individuals carefuly and direct his attacks against flaws in their strategic and tactical thinking they often didn't know even existed. Palpitine is a political leader, not a warlord. Thrawn has had plenty of time to study Palpitine to be able to anticipate him to a great deal. And thats not Thrawnwank, he has shown an ability to do this with people and races he has never even met.

Wow, Thrawnwank.

So he was a good strategist, that's mattering against a vastly superior force again how?

And oh yes, Palps is just going to let Thrawn sit out there and study beyond the one year the OP gave.

So Palpitine had a contingency plan and/or wanted to get rid of Thrawn. Big fucking deal in the current context of this thread where he HASN'T gotten rid of him and they are apparently going to war.

No, but it demolishs your Thrawn wanking real quick on Palps having no idea on how to deal with him.

You have the quote handy? Regardless, its irrelevent to the current topic as he was not stabbed....

Its clear you don't want to actualy bother to provide useful data which I was asking for to try and formulate an opinoin. I just wanted to say "Thrawn had X ships in his fleet made up of Y while Palpitine had A and B". Then make a substantive judgement on it.

But your so clearly convinved that Palpitine has the uber fleet to end all uber fleets and you don't need to give sources or evidence, so I'll just accept it and concede the entire argument.

It sad that you screech when you've never read the thing. Be no different then someone screeching that the DS never did it's planet busting, and someone then blurts out they never saw the film.

Palpitine had a powerful force yes, but there is no evidence that it was the be all and end all. The New Republic was able to defeat these fleets of powerful capital ships in many battles through DE. I grant you stuff like the World Devistators were very effective. But even before the NR was able to bring its own cruisers like the MC-90 online in large numbers, the NRDF was able to stand upto and defeat them many times.

"Many times," sir? The New Republic Defense Forces are not known to have achieved any victories at all during Operation Shadow Hand on their own merit; the only two known victories are Calamari and Altyr V in Dark Empire and Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith, both of which were accomplished through the actions of Jedi Knights. The NRDF was badly mauled at Calamari and utterly failed to do any substantial damage to the World Devastators. GADM Thrawn can hardly count on securing Lord Skywalker's assistance against them; how do you propose that he deal with a squadron of war machines capable of simply eating Star Destroyers?

Of course the NRDF had many advantages Thrawn simply doesn't have. Including many more forces to play with, shipyards solidly under their control that are pumping out ships of increasing power (an MC-90 can stand upto a frigen Executor for a while afterall), newer and better Starfighters like the E-Wing comming online and so on. Palpitine stupidly appeared to simply chase around the New Republic Government from base to base, wasting firepower and ships in every engagement while the Republics overwhelming logistical adnvatange slowly turned the tide.

Actually the New Republic was steadily losing its logistical base; if this author may be permitted the vanity of quoting himself:

The renewed Imperial offensive continued even after the recapture of the re-(re-)named Imperial Center. The Dark Empire Sourcebook mentions an Imperial siege of Caprioril, "a New Republic Sector capital, " during which Major Arhul Hextrophon, the Executive Secretary and Master Historian, Alliance High Command, – the notional editor-in-chief of both the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook, Second Edition (in continuity, it is The Official History of the Rebellion, Volume One) and the Imperial Sourcebook, Second Edition (in continuity, it is a companion report to the Official History), and quite probably a member of the New Republic Historical Council – was injured in an assassination attempt. Nor did the offensive stop there; Coruscant and the Core Worlds mentions the capture of Esseles III and Ralltiir (Ralt II) in the Darpa Sector – the banking world of Ralltiir was nearly totally evacuated – , of Duro II in Duro Sector (during the capture of Duro, the newly-promoted Vice Admiral Pellaeon's flagship HIMS Chimaera was severely damaged and abandoned, with the loss of "many of Pellaeon's most loyal and skilled officers," according to The Essential Chronology), and of Corulag (Corulus IV) in Bormea Sector, this last world becoming "a major battleground" during the offensive, with heavy damage being sustained by the capital city of Curamelle and other major metropolises on the planet. The Historical Council describes the capture of Chandrila II in Bormea Sector, but Coruscant and the Core Worlds claims that the world was unaffected during this phase of the war, while the Dark Empire Sourcebook indicates that Hextrophon was convalescing on Chandrila at Mothma's dacha at Lake Sah'Ot, and that he gave a guest lecture at the Brionelle Memorial Military Academy shortly after the events of Dark Empire, which suggests that the Empire's hand rested very lightly indeed on the pastoral world. The Essential Guide to Planets and Moons (Del Rey, 1997) describes the re-annexation of Balmorra, near the inner edge of the Core Worlds Region, and The Essential Chronology summarizes by saying that "Ralltiir, Chandrila, Esseles, and other key Core Worlds soon fell to the Imperials." By the time of the Dark Empire Sourcebook, the Empire had "regained the Core Worlds, and still holds the Deep Galactic Core, as well as may high industry regions beyond the Core Worlds," in addition to supplying its fleets from "power bases in the Mid-Rim and the reclaimed Inner Rim, where industrial planets depend on wartime economies to survive." The re-conquest of the Core Worlds and Inner Rim Regions, combined with existing Imperial territories in the Mid-Rim and Outer Rim Territories Regions, had the effect of "linking Imperial holdings all the way to Wild Space." "Once control of these vital planets was ensured," the sourcebook says, "the Empire began bulwarking them against further attack." In only a few months the balance of power had been shifted radically, and the Galactic Empire was once again galactic in fact as well as in name.

and

The Essential Chronology states that "New Republic commando and sabotage teams attacked the Galaxy Gun but were unable to destroy it," and the Galactic Emperor destroyed two more worlds with the weapon in early 46 AGR, "bringing the resistance to its knees." The knowledge that the Galactic Emperor now possessed the ability to completely destroy even a fully-shielded world anywhere in the galaxy and at any time, without warning, was apparently enough to break the fighting spirit of worlds throughout the galaxy, and many began to surrender. The Essential Chronology states that the Empire soon "regained key territories in the Inner and Outer Rim," solidifying its hold on most of the galaxy, an amazing feat considering that the New Republic had controlled approximately three-quarters of the galaxy barely two years before, just before Thrawn's War. The New Republic was on the verge of total collapse, holding onto a handful of worlds (no source describes the conquest of the Expansion Region, for example, which implies that the Empire did not successfully seize the majority of that region), and Empire's End (Dark Horse, 1997) mentions that "troopships and heavy armor" were "directed against Imperial supply ports and shipyards"; one such was the troopship NRS Pelagia, "transporting a hundred thousand ground troops and their assault armor to the galactic rim, where rebel forces have a great Imperial shipyard under siege." Seemingly selecting this target at random, the Galactic Emperor destroyed Pelagia with the Galaxy Gun, watching the spectacle via "subminiature probe drones" which followed the missile to its target; the sight of the troopship's destruction prompted Nist to remark that the Galaxy Gun "has only been fired four times... and yet planets all over the galaxy are capitulating." A spy provided the location of the New Republic's new base, and a fifth Galaxy missile was fired, which failed to detonate because of a "faulty Bonadan timer"; a sixth Galaxy missile finished the job approximately an hour later, but this delay gave the New Republic government the time it needed to evacuate the spaceborne city. Mothma ordered the New Republic forces to disperse throughout the galaxy, preventing the Galaxy Gun from destroying them all at once.

The New Republic was steadily losing territory to the revivified Imperial forces, and was forced to scatter its forces lest they be destroyed by long-range fire from the Galactic Emperor's very well protected Galaxy Gun. This is quite unlike the situation you describe; the New Republic was unambiguously losing the war, and losing it badly.

But that said, Thrawn also has many advantages. He is smart. For all the Thrawn wanking I see going on, the fact is that he knows Palpitine better then almost anyone else, including Palpitine. He also may well know perfectly about Byss and the superweapons, including Eclipse. He has his own infastructure that was going full out and the clone facility of course. As well as in production cloaking technology.

Did you know that he regarded Palpatine as his "beloved Emperor" in the Heir to the Empire Sourcebook? What kind of personality must one have to be admired by a sangfroid Chiss? Generally one would think that if Thrawn so admired Palpatine, it must be because he found him worthy of admiration.

How is it that Thrawn knows Palpatine better than Palpatine does? Does Thrawn have mentalic powers? Does he have the gifts of clairvoyance and telepathy? If he knows Palpatine so well, why does he keep a personal bodyguard chosen from a group that happens to be one of the Galactic Emperor's aces in the hole? The Dark Empire Sourcebook mentions that Palpatine retained the use of "his Hands and his Noghri," and Noghri Death Commandos appeared on the Sith world of Dromund Kaas in Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith; combined with the fact that it is heavily implied that Palpatine arranged for Thrawn's death in the official continuity, really Thrawn ought to know better than to employ Rukh's services if he knew all about Palpatine's plans, oughtn't he?

Have you any evidence that Thrawn knew of Byss and the weapons of mass destruction that Palpatine had assembled there? Or are you rather attributing to him advantages without basis? Shall we say that Palpatine automatically knows the location of every single ship in Thrawn's forces, without such inconveniences as locating them? Furthermore, even if one should grant – in the face of a complete absence of evidence – that Thrawn knew of Byss and the WMDs, what advantage does that give him? Would his knowledge prevent his ships from being dashed to pieces by World Devastators? Would you have him examine Umak Leth's taste in opera and thereby prevent his main supply depots from being disintegrated by the Galaxy Gun? Would knowing how many guns are mounted aboard Eclipse prevent Chimaera from being blasted into very small non-working parts by the same?

Publius wrote:<snip>If he knows Palpatine so well, why does he keep a personal bodyguard chosen from a group that happens to be one of the Galactic Emperor's aces in the hole? The Dark Empire Sourcebook mentions that Palpatine retained the use of "his Hands and his Noghri," and Noghri Death Commandos appeared on the Sith world of Dromund Kaas in Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith; combined with the fact that it is heavily implied that Palpatine arranged for Thrawn's death in the official continuity, really Thrawn ought to know better than to employ Rukh's services if he knew all about Palpatine's plans, oughtn't he?<snip>

Sorry Publius, I have the most respect for you and your work, but the above has to be the most offensive stuff that piece of shit, worhtless garabage rag (DESB) ever spewed.

Rukh betrayed Thrawn due to Leia Organa Solo, and not due to the raving lunatic clone, it is clear as day in TLC. And re-inforced in SotP.

As for the appearance of Noghri in the games, wasn't it explained in JK:JA that these Noghri are commandoes that have been cut off from their brethen back in Honoghr?

Crown wrote: Sorry Publius, I have the most respect for you and your work, but the above has to be the most offensive stuff that piece of shit, worhtless garabage rag (DESB) ever spewed.

Rukh betrayed Thrawn due to Leia Organa Solo, and not due to the raving lunatic clone, it is clear as day in TLC. And re-inforced in SotP.

As for the appearance of Noghri in the games, wasn't it explained in JK:JA that these Noghri are commandoes that have been cut off from their brethen back in Honoghr?

Strictly speaking, authors are free to reinterpret the evidence given by other authors as it pleases them, even when it runs counter to the intentions of the original author (Mr. Zahn himself did this in Vision of the Future when he tried to imply via Mara Jade that the Galactic Emperor had not really reincarnated). Nevertheless, you are right; Mr. Horne giving Palpatine a role in Thrawn's death is counterintuitive and gratuitous (and is not entirely certain – the DESB only says that Thrawn's death was "no accident"). Of course, Mr. Zahn himself is guilty of taking gratuitous cheap shots at Palpatine and Vader, so one supposes that sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. In this case it is only cited uncharitably due to Mr. O'Farrell's insistence that the all-knowing Thrawn will somehow outsmart Palpatine's forces.

As regards Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy, not having played it, this author is unfamiliar with any details it might have contained about the Noghri Death Commandos. Even if they were isolated from Honoghr, Palpatine still regards them as being reliable agents in the DESB (it is even implied that he used them to assassinate enemies during his occultation). Even if one disregards the Noghri altogether (which is probably preferable in any case, for, as you have noted, the idea is actually problematic), Palpatine has other wreckers and agents in place in Thrawn's "New Empire," as the DESB says that his "spies moved everywhere with confidence," and his wreckers are explicitly said to be responsible for the conflicting orders and bureaucratic morass that paralyzed the Empire for years.

Well, in that case WEG shot itself into the foot, because the TLC-Sourcebook describes how Rukh learnt about the empires betrayel of the Noghri (although the other Noghri in that short-story could be one of those loyal to Palpatine).

Any idea, what large imperial shipyard was under siege by the Pelagia?

I also wasn't under the impression, that Zahn made "cheap shots" at Palpatine and Vader in TTT. Those came later with HoT and even then they can be attributed to the POV of the character speaking.

Publius:

I am unsure of the precise details of the Nogrhi episode of Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy. Insofar as I can remember, an ancient planetary shield (or cloak?) was placed upon the planet by an Jedi Master long ago; the Empire, with the assistance of Nogrhi commandos, attacked the planet in order to take this device. If it was solely Nogrhi at the site, that's strange as I distinctly remember several stormtroopers; which brings up the question of why the Nogrhi would assist the Empire in this endeavour....

Elheru Aran wrote:Publius:

I am unsure of the precise details of the Nogrhi episode of Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy. Insofar as I can remember, an ancient planetary shield (or cloak?) was placed upon the planet by an Jedi Master long ago; the Empire, with the assistance of Nogrhi commandos, attacked the planet in order to take this device. If it was solely Nogrhi at the site, that's strange as I distinctly remember several stormtroopers; which brings up the question of why the Nogrhi would assist the Empire in this endeavour....

The Situation as I remember it:

-Jedi Master sets up device to hide planet and protect its natives.

-Emperor discovers planet and dispatches Noghri to capture and defend it for him.

- Decades later, Tavion's Remnant forces attempt to steal the device and apparently the Noghri don't take to kindly to it. They dispatch a distress call, perhaps calling for Darth Vader's assistance, believing that the Imperials are defectors and not knowing of the happenings of the last decade.

-Jedi intercept call, send knight to stop the Imperials. You have to fight both Remnant forces and Noghri, but the Noghri are fighting the Imperials at the same time.

-After you defeat the Remnant forces, the Noghri surrender and are returned to their people in the outside galaxy.