StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Having thought a lot recently about the rise of the Sith and the demise of the Jedi, it's difficult to escape the conclusion that the Jedi contributed to their own downfall.

This is not an old conclusion- I know many of you have already reached it, for one reason or another. The Jedi were arrogant, full of pride, and unable to see the wood for the trees. But I wonder, would the Jedi have stood a chance against the 'new' generation of Sith that Palpatine represented, regardless of how the Jedi conducted themselves?
After all, the Sith, for thousands of years, secretly watching the Jedi and no doubt learning their methods and ways. The Sith studied the Jedi, they also studied the Dark Side, and had a thousand years to pass down knowledge and skills, culminating in Palpatine and Vader.

The Sith also knew that the Jedi would harbour preconceptions about them, and they played those preconceptions brilliantly. They used the truth to deflect suspicion, something the Jedi didn't believe the Sith were capable of.

For example, Dooku truthfully told Obi-wan that a Sith Lord was in control of the Senate in Attack of the Clones, but the Jedi paid this information little heed, believing it to be a Sith lie, because to the Jedi, there was no way a Sith Lord could tell the truth. They believed it simply was not possible. With that one act, Dooku ensured suspicion would be deflected from Palpatine before it even got off the ground.

Palpatine carefully used the truth to his advantage in Revenge of the Sith, and we all know how that turned out for the Jedi.

Part of the Sith's strength was that they didn't rely on the Force for insight or to accomplish their aims. Palpatine was a Sith Lord, yes, but he was also a master manipulator and a master of public speaking. In my opinion, Palpatine didn't use the Force to get him elected to the rank of Chancellor- he used his natural charms and guile instead. That way, he didn't risk exposing his presence and also showed that he could think for himself. He might not have even needed to create the shroud of the Dark Side that hampered the Jedi- it was said in the ROTS novel that war itself poured darkness into the Force- perhaps Palpatine started it, and let the war maintain it, so that again, he didn't risk exposing himself.

When the Force was called for, Palpatine used it brilliantly. In his fight with Mace, he dispatched three other Jedi within 60 seconds. The first Jedi he killed wasn't even looking at Palpatine, even though he'd just leapt to him! Palpatine was also still for a few seconds whilst he readied his weapon, yet none of the other Jedi took advantage of this, suggesting he used the Dark Side to cloud their perceptions.

Palpatine then showed his lightening power against Yoda, by blasting Yoda's lightsaber from his hand. The novel makes it clear that Yoda used up nearly all of his strength in deflecting Palpatine's lightening, whilst Palpatine still seemed able to carry on fighting.

In short, the Sith knew a lot more about the Force than the Jedi did come ROTS.

Sothis wrote:In short, the Sith knew a lot more about the Force than the Jedi did come ROTS.

Yes. This is almost outright stated in the RotS novel. The Living Force decreed their death at the hands of its Chosen One because of this, in order to restore balance between the Light and Dark siders.

Part of the Sith's strength was that they didn't rely on the Force for insight or to accomplish their aims. Palpatine was a Sith Lord, yes, but he was also a master manipulator and a master of public speaking. In my opinion, Palpatine didn't use the Force to get him elected to the rank of Chancellor- he used his natural charms and guile instead. That way, he didn't risk exposing his presence and also showed that he could think for himself. He might not have even needed to create the shroud of the Dark Side that hampered the Jedi- it was said in the ROTS novel that war itself poured darkness into the Force- perhaps Palpatine started it, and let the war maintain it, so that again, he didn't risk exposing himself.

I disagree with this, to a certain degree. For one thing, Labyrinth of Evil mentions that Palpatine has the exceptionally superb ability to use the Dark Side to peer into the possible futures that lie ahead.

Guardsman Bass wrote:

Part of the Sith's strength was that they didn't rely on the Force for insight or to accomplish their aims. Palpatine was a Sith Lord, yes, but he was also a master manipulator and a master of public speaking. In my opinion, Palpatine didn't use the Force to get him elected to the rank of Chancellor- he used his natural charms and guile instead. That way, he didn't risk exposing his presence and also showed that he could think for himself. He might not have even needed to create the shroud of the Dark Side that hampered the Jedi- it was said in the ROTS novel that war itself poured darkness into the Force- perhaps Palpatine started it, and let the war maintain it, so that again, he didn't risk exposing himself.

I disagree with this, to a certain degree. For one thing, Labyrinth of Evil mentions that Palpatine has the exceptionally superb ability to use the Dark Side to peer into the possible futures that lie ahead.

The ROTS novelization says that Palpatine's mastery of political manipulation was almost as great as his control over the Force, and that Dooku admired this trait in particular.

Guardsman Bass wrote:

Part of the Sith's strength was that they didn't rely on the Force for insight or to accomplish their aims. Palpatine was a Sith Lord, yes, but he was also a master manipulator and a master of public speaking. In my opinion, Palpatine didn't use the Force to get him elected to the rank of Chancellor- he used his natural charms and guile instead. That way, he didn't risk exposing his presence and also showed that he could think for himself. He might not have even needed to create the shroud of the Dark Side that hampered the Jedi- it was said in the ROTS novel that war itself poured darkness into the Force- perhaps Palpatine started it, and let the war maintain it, so that again, he didn't risk exposing himself.

I disagree with this, to a certain degree. For one thing, Labyrinth of Evil mentions that Palpatine has the exceptionally superb ability to use the Dark Side to peer into the possible futures that lie ahead.

He might well have possessed this ability, but it has little bearing on a shroud of the Dark Side to hamper the Jedi, or on whether or not he used mind-control tricks to persuade the Senate to vote for him.

Sothis wrote:

Guardsman Bass wrote:

Part of the Sith's strength was that they didn't rely on the Force for insight or to accomplish their aims. Palpatine was a Sith Lord, yes, but he was also a master manipulator and a master of public speaking. In my opinion, Palpatine didn't use the Force to get him elected to the rank of Chancellor- he used his natural charms and guile instead. That way, he didn't risk exposing his presence and also showed that he could think for himself. He might not have even needed to create the shroud of the Dark Side that hampered the Jedi- it was said in the ROTS novel that war itself poured darkness into the Force- perhaps Palpatine started it, and let the war maintain it, so that again, he didn't risk exposing himself.

I disagree with this, to a certain degree. For one thing, Labyrinth of Evil mentions that Palpatine has the exceptionally superb ability to use the Dark Side to peer into the possible futures that lie ahead.

He might well have possessed this ability, but it has little bearing on a shroud of the Dark Side to hamper the Jedi, or on whether or not he used mind-control tricks to persuade the Senate to vote for him.

I was talking about neither; the book (LoE) had Dooku saying that Sidious could use the Dark Side of the force to foresee the various possibilities for the future. It doesn't mean that he used the force for persuasion, or to create the shroud of the Dark Side.

Sothis wrote:Part of the Sith's strength was that they didn't rely on the Force for insight or to accomplish their aims. Palpatine was a Sith Lord, yes, but he was also a master manipulator and a master of public speaking. In my opinion, Palpatine didn't use the Force to get him elected to the rank of Chancellor- he used his natural charms and guile instead. That way, he didn't risk exposing his presence and also showed that he could think for himself. He might not have even needed to create the shroud of the Dark Side that hampered the Jedi- it was said in the ROTS novel that war itself poured darkness into the Force- perhaps Palpatine started it, and let the war maintain it, so that again, he didn't risk exposing himself.

it also helped that he used a very young and naive queen to "impeach" the Chancellor to get Palpatine the position. Jedi can hide themselves to, the thing is that a Jedi never needed to hide themselves from thousands of Sith. Im not arguing with you, im agreeing but pretty much if an older queen was put in power during the time of the Naboo crisis 1) Palpatine wouldnt have sprung his plan at that time or 2) it would have failed and Chancellor Valorum would still be in power

Tychu wrote:it also helped that he used a very young and naive queen to "impeach" the Chancellor to get Palpatine the position. Jedi can hide themselves to, the thing is that a Jedi never needed to hide themselves from thousands of Sith. Im not arguing with you, im agreeing but pretty much if an older queen was put in power during the time of the Naboo crisis 1) Palpatine wouldnt have sprung his plan at that time or 2) it would have failed and Chancellor Valorum would still be in power

It didn't matter who the Queen was or how old she was. If you remeber, Sidious wanted the queen to sign the treaty he wanted her on Naboo. So he obviously had another plan for getting Valorum out of office. Maybe a senator could call for the vote of no confidence, but once Amidala showed up, he just used her to do it. Chancellor Valorum definetely would not have been in office 10 years after TPM.

NecronLord wrote:

Sothis wrote:In short, the Sith knew a lot more about the Force than the Jedi did come ROTS.

Yes. This is almost outright stated in the RotS novel. The Living Force decreed their death at the hands of its Chosen One because of this, in order to restore balance between the Light and Dark siders.

Only the first sentence is in reply to that quote of course. The second part doesn't necessarily follow from the novel or the film.

If your interpretation is that "whatever happens is the will of the Force" then I can see that being logical. But if the Dark Side is an abberation of the Force (are we making each type of the Force, Living, Unified, Dark Side, Grayside, whatever into warring deities?), then I doubt whatever it does is in accordance with the "Will of the Force."

havokeff wrote:

Tychu wrote:it also helped that he used a very young and naive queen to "impeach" the Chancellor to get Palpatine the position. Jedi can hide themselves to, the thing is that a Jedi never needed to hide themselves from thousands of Sith. Im not arguing with you, im agreeing but pretty much if an older queen was put in power during the time of the Naboo crisis 1) Palpatine wouldnt have sprung his plan at that time or 2) it would have failed and Chancellor Valorum would still be in power

It didn't matter who the Queen was or how old she was. If you remeber, Sidious wanted the queen to sign the treaty he wanted her on Naboo. So he obviously had another plan for getting Valorum out of office. Maybe a senator could call for the vote of no confidence, but once Amidala showed up, he just used her to do it. Chancellor Valorum definetely would not have been in office 10 years after TPM.

lets just say that there wasnt a vote of no confidence, do you know how long a Chancellors term is in the Galactic Senate? Mas Ameda who was the vice Chancelor had that seat for quite some time, he was there when Valorum was Chancellor and he was there throught Palpatines Chancellorship thats roughly 14 years

lets just say that there wasnt a vote of no confidence, do you know how long a Chancellors term is in the Galactic Senate?

Between 10 and 13 years max, considering Palpatine was still power during AOTC, but had his term extended beyond precident at some point during the Clone Wars before LoE.

Tychu wrote:

havokeff wrote:

Tychu wrote:it also helped that he used a very young and naive queen to "impeach" the Chancellor to get Palpatine the position. Jedi can hide themselves to, the thing is that a Jedi never needed to hide themselves from thousands of Sith. Im not arguing with you, im agreeing but pretty much if an older queen was put in power during the time of the Naboo crisis 1) Palpatine wouldnt have sprung his plan at that time or 2) it would have failed and Chancellor Valorum would still be in power

It didn't matter who the Queen was or how old she was. If you remeber, Sidious wanted the queen to sign the treaty he wanted her on Naboo. So he obviously had another plan for getting Valorum out of office. Maybe a senator could call for the vote of no confidence, but once Amidala showed up, he just used her to do it. Chancellor Valorum definetely would not have been in office 10 years after TPM.

lets just say that there wasnt a vote of no confidence, do you know how long a Chancellors term is in the Galactic Senate? Mas Ameda who was the vice Chancelor had that seat for quite some time, he was there when Valorum was Chancellor and he was there throught Palpatines Chancellorship thats roughly 14 years

What Ire said, and I'm sure Palpatine, being the masterful politician and schemer he was had already plotted out several ways to get himself elected Chancellor. And as far a Mas's terms go, he was probably already on Palpatine's side while he was serving Valorum and he kept him on during his term.

The original plan called for the queen to sign a treaty legalizing the invasion of Naboo. The outrage would have ousted Valorum from office, especially since his hold was already tenous following allegations of corruption no doubt engineered (or perhaps merely exposed) by Palpatine.
The capture of the queen was of such great importance that Palpatine was willing to deploy Maul and risk revealing the survival of the Sith to the Jedi.

The queen's escape was bad, but it turned out to be even more fortuitious that she came to Coruscant, allowing Palps to use her to secure Valorum's fall.

Cykeisme wrote:The original plan called for the queen to sign a treaty legalizing the invasion of Naboo. The outrage would have ousted Valorum from office, especially since his hold was already tenous following allegations of corruption no doubt engineered (or perhaps merely exposed) by Palpatine.
The capture of the queen was of such great importance that Palpatine was willing to deploy Maul and risk revealing the survival of the Sith to the Jedi.

The queen's escape was bad, but it turned out to be even more fortuitious that she came to Coruscant, allowing Palps to use her to secure Valorum's fall.

Palpitine himself says they are baseless acusations of corruption. Since we know he is the puppet master of the senate we have a incling that it was him to have spread these accusations