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What's your opinion on overall Rebel performance at Hoth?

Imperial Objectives:
Primary:
Capture Luke Skywalker
Capture or kill as many other rebels as possible
Prevent Rebels from escaping
Secondary( supporting, implied objectives once it became apparent that bombardment was not viable):
Destroy the Shield Generator
Penetrate Rebel Ground Defences
Land additional forces to overrun the base accomplishin capture/kill primary objective

Rebel Objectives
Primary:
Evacuate primary personnel (Leia, other high-ranking persons)
Evacuate support personnel and equipment
Escape the Hoth system
Secondary:
Protect the shield generator
Protect the loading areas
Slow down and destroy as much of the initial AT-AT assault as possible
Protect transports in flight

I think it is safe to assume the rebels expected Walker attack because they had soldiers in position and were preparing air cover for them. It seems obvious that they knew the imperial fleet could not penetrate their shield.

So:

My evaluation of the rebels is that they made some very good decisions and some very bad ones. They managed to get some transports out ("we don't know how many escaped") but they lost 17 of them, along with an unknown number of fighters, not to mention personnel and equipment that could not be evacuated. Luke was able to escape through good fortune and Leia was also almost lost, had the Falcon not been available.

Good points for the Rebels:
Good preparation for ground assault. Soldiers and heavy weapons were in position along the most likely venue of approach, air support was ready for scramble. Rebel weapons performed poorly against AT-ATs; but that is not really a cricticism; limited availablility of equipment is common to any insurrection, and they made good use of what they had. Soldiers fought bravely and retreated only when about to be overrun; the lack of AT-STs at the end also looks favorably on the rebel soldiers for concentrating on targets they could destroy.
Good adaptability to tactical situation. Luke and Wedge quickly devise and implement the tow cable plan. Soldiers respond to the collapsed walker with a quick assault, pre-empted by a strafing snowspeeder.
Quick implementation of the evacuation plan. Started immidietly upon discovery of the imperial fleet. This indicates good preparedness.
Excellent coordination between the Ion cannon and transport launch.

Poor points:
Failure to use starfighters to slow the AT-AT assault. While the Starfighters were clearly earmarked for transport escort, they also likely carried more powerful cannons (since snowspeeders were adapted civilian craft) as well as proton torpedoes which miht have done significantly more damage to the AT-AT attack, buying more time.
Poor positioning of the shield generator. No cover or concealment. Perhaps it must be exposed to function, but I think that's unlikely sice starship generators aren't. No building of berms or attempt to camoflage it.
Use of riflemen against armor. No apparent purpose to this, unless unseen infantry was deploying from the walkers.

Perhaps it must be exposed to function, but I think that's unlikely sice starship generators aren't. No building of berms or attempt to camoflage it.

I point you to the Endor Shield Generator complex. Planetary and theater Shield Generators have to actually project a very large bubble, where as in most cases, starship shielding is skin tight, and it still has to be exposed in some places, if not fully.

Use of riflemen against armor. No apparent purpose to this, unless unseen infantry was deploying from the walkers.

There were Snow troopers deployed on Hoth, although perhaps they should have all been kept inside the base instead of in the out trenches. It is possible though that they were there to defend the guns and artillery from ground troops, and didn't anticipate the Imperial usage of AT-ATs.


I think the Rebels did farily well considering their circumstances, excpet for the failure to use X and Y wings against the walkers. Mining the approach corridors to the base might have also been a good idea, but it is possible they did not have the resources to spare.

I point you to the Endor Shield Generator complex. Planetary and theater Shield Generators have to actually project a very large bubble, where as in most cases, starship shielding is skin tight, and it still has to be exposed in some places, if not fully.

Good point, I forgot about that.. although the Endor generator was also supposed to protect a large orbiting object.

Mining the approach corridors to the base might have also been a good idea, but it is possible they did not have the resources to spare.

Another good point, although Mr. Wong points out in the main site that the feet of AT-ATs can easily smother most mines, which would probably include any improvised ones. Might have helped against AT-STs and infantry though.

SVPD wrote:

I point you to the Endor Shield Generator complex. Planetary and theater Shield Generators have to actually project a very large bubble, where as in most cases, starship shielding is skin tight, and it still has to be exposed in some places, if not fully.

Good point, I forgot about that.. although the Endor generator was also supposed to protect a large orbiting object.

WTF?

Anyway we got to remember that Hoth was a "make it as we go" as the rebels had very little true defences in place (the AT-AT design is orginally from the Clone Wars era so there's probably some other to stop as well), also for the fighter, first their weapons are the same yield as nukes (though laser canon are not as prone to extensive coladeral damage) and there is possiblity that the fighters would be shot down.

WTF?

Um, I'm pretty sure he was refering to the second Death Star.

Noble Ire wrote:

WTF?

Um, I'm pretty sure he was refering to the second Death Star.

oops I was thinking of the wrong planet (aka Hoth)

EDIT:The fighters were need to protect the transports from TIEs and using them in the ground battle might have costed them not only the pilot but craft as well and was at best a waste of resources (as the battle was lost anyway).

Cosnidering they had no capital ship support, and were up against some of the Empire's finest, I would say they did good. Although I think they were lucky that the Empire didn't use more aerial support for whatever reason, hence why I don't give them an 'excellent'.

Darth Fanboy wrote:Cosnidering they had no capital ship support, and were up against some of the Empire's finest, I would say they did good. Although I think they were lucky that the Empire didn't use more aerial support for whatever reason, hence why I don't give them an 'excellent'.

There was a shield overhead preventing Imperial air attacks. By the time the shield was brought down, the battle was essentally over, making air attacks unnecesary.

it's funny that of the bad points every one is either due to the state the Hoth base was in (it half build at best) or is a useless rant (the fighter point)

The fact that the Rebel could only send two fighters per transport means they were short of fighters to begin with (as pilot says "two fighters against a stardestroyer ?")

Lord Revan wrote:EDIT:The fighters were need to protect the transports from TIEs and using them in the ground battle might have costed them not only the pilot but craft as well and was at best a waste of resources (as the battle was lost anyway).

The point about the fighters was that if they had used the starfighters to stop, or significantly weaken the AT-ATs they could have had a lot more time to get the transports loaded, in which case the starfighters could have linked up with the transports at the takeoff area

SVPD wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:EDIT:The fighters were need to protect the transports from TIEs and using them in the ground battle might have costed them not only the pilot but craft as well and was at best a waste of resources (as the battle was lost anyway).

The point about the fighters was that if they had used the starfighters to stop, or significantly weaken the AT-ATs they could have had a lot more time to get the transports loaded, in which case the starfighters could have linked up with the transports at the takeoff area

since the imperial taskforce had (if needed) more then enough forces to overrun the rebels with brute force and it possible that an X-wing or a Y-wing could be shot down by the AT-ATs and Both the lasercanon and protorps are in Kt-range (it's probable that protorp are even in Mt-range), so the possibility of damage to the rebel force is too high for the fighters to be usefull in the ground battle.

EDIT: also proton Torpedos don't grow in trees and there's much better targets then a AT-AT in a battle that's lost anyway.

SVPD wrote: The point about the fighters was that if they had used the starfighters to stop, or significantly weaken the AT-ATs they could have had a lot more time to get the transports loaded, in which case the starfighters could have linked up with the transports at the takeoff area

The rebels lost the second Vader showed up - the only question is how much damage they could avoid.

Also, it isn't clear how useful a starfighter is in the atmosphere. Could your fighters maneuver with the same agility as the snowspeeder (look at any starfighter - they are aerodynamically challenged since they are meant for vacuum combat and not atmosphere)? I'm assuming that the speeders were built for a reason - otherwise, why not just use fighters?

I'm assuming that the speeders were built for a reason - otherwise, why not just use fighters?

The T47 speeder was originally a civilian craft making it much cheaper then any military hardware. They weren't actually there because they were necessarily good at what they did, just that they were a cheap alternative.

The Original Nex wrote:

Darth Fanboy wrote:Cosnidering they had no capital ship support, and were up against some of the Empire's finest, I would say they did good. Although I think they were lucky that the Empire didn't use more aerial support for whatever reason, hence why I don't give them an 'excellent'.

There was a shield overhead preventing Imperial air attacks. By the time the shield was brought down, the battle was essentally over, making air attacks unnecesary.

They got their AT-ATs through, which suggests to me (duh) they had a way of getting equipment through. It wouldn't have to be TIE Fighters, but they should have taken something.

Darth Fanboy wrote:

The Original Nex wrote:

Darth Fanboy wrote:Cosnidering they had no capital ship support, and were up against some of the Empire's finest, I would say they did good. Although I think they were lucky that the Empire didn't use more aerial support for whatever reason, hence why I don't give them an 'excellent'.

There was a shield overhead preventing Imperial air attacks. By the time the shield was brought down, the battle was essentally over, making air attacks unnecesary.

They got their AT-ATs through, which suggests to me (duh) they had a way of getting equipment through. It wouldn't have to be TIE Fighters, but they should have taken something.

Their landing barges made planetfall outside the shield perimeter, as per Vader's line ("Make ready to land our troops beyond their energy field. . .") as well as the OT:ITW.

The walkers proceeded to march through the energy shield (one of the advantages of walker (or indeed simply grounded) technology.

No Imperial aircraft got through the Rebel's shield.

How about a fighter screen above the planet? Why weren't there TIEs deployed to cover any possible escape from the world? You had the SSD and 6 ISDs, right? So where were those fighters? Set up an effective blockade around the planet with the smaller craft, making even the two X-Wings useless against trying to get through that blockade.

I don't know how long it actually took for the Barges to unload, and the AT-ATs to get through the shield and to the base, but presumably it wasn't all that long. Therefore the theater shield wasn't covering a huge area, that I could tell. The AT-ATs simply didn't take that long to get there. So the Rebels had a very narrow escape corridor. They couldn't just pass through the energy shield and fly to the other side of the planet, then break for space. (well they could have, but they would have probably been under fire from the ISDs by that point coming out of the shield, I'd think)

I haven't read the novelization, maybe they covered this. I just wondered where the Imp fighters were.

How about a fighter screen above the planet? Why weren't there TIEs deployed to cover any possible escape from the world? You had the SSD and 6 ISDs, right? So where were those fighters? Set up an effective blockade around the planet with the smaller craft, making even the two X-Wings useless against trying to get through that blockade.

There were, as has been said, 17 transports were lost or captured while trying to escape, and fighters were used to help accomplishment. As for a full blockade of a planet, seven capital ships and all of their fighters aren't enough to cover more than a small portion of it's exit vectors, although apparently that was enough.

The rebels did well, only because the Imperials botched the job.

As the main site suggests, the Hoth theatre sheild probably worked very similar to the shields used by the Gungans in TPM, in that ground contact is required to get through. Now, whether or not the Rebels had the resources to do it on Hoth is uncertain, but I would bet in similar circumstances the perimeter just where the shield makes contact would be covered in tank traps. This would explain why legged vehicles are used to often by attacking forces, because they could simply step over most obstacles set up for wheeled or treaded vehicles, with the obvious evolution in design leading from the squat designs we saw in AotC and RotS to the long legged AT-AT and AT-ST of the OT to step over even higher traps built for the walkers. Now, considering that the Star Wars universe understands how well treaded and wheeled vehicles work, as evidenced by the Juggernaut, its not surprising they used such a vehicle during the defence of Kashyyyk, when they did not have to worry about getting through their own shields. This also means that for the size of the Death Squadron, they had to have had some wheeled and tracked vehicles lying around, but chose not to use them, so I would conjecture that the Rebels set up some sort of defensive perimeter at their shield perimeter to force the Imperials to use their intrisicaly inferior, yet still quite effective, AT-AT walkers. This also helps explain why the Rebels used tauntans instead of the sort of cold weather vehicles we have today and should be in their price range with the sort of industry inherent in a galactic civilization: tracked vehicles could not outside the perimeter, where they would have placed their sensors to get maximum sky coverage, and their speeders were not adapted to the cold yet.

This is of course all conjecture, but I can see General Veers peering at the initial sensor information and saying, "M'lord, the Rebels have thoroughly secured their perimeter against our tanks, we'll have to send in the walkers to crush them instead." This might explain the presence of Rebel infantry: to snipe off Imperial combat engineers trying to clear a path for the heavier armour.

As to why they didn't use their starfighters against the AT-ATs, I would say that it was so they could get their transports moving before an effective blockade could be established. They had to leave immediately and the transports could not wait for the fighters to clear out the walkers and then refuel after battle.

Thus I give the Rebels an excellent rating on the battle because they were totally outgunned, but they had excellent planning and fought well with their limited equipment.

They had to leave immediately and the transports could not wait for the fighters to clear out the walkers and then refuel after battle.

I can buy the first part of the sentence, but Luke's X-Wing made 2 planetary takeoffs and hyperspace jumps without refueling on Dagobah. I doubt there's any significant fuel consumption involved in brief atmospheric flight.

I'd also point out that in regard to "tank traps", it's an accepted real-world principle that obstacles not covered by weapons (preferably both direct and indirect fire) are easily breached "in-stride" and not terribly useful. I don't know how big the Rebel's shield umbrella was, but IIRC Veers destroyed the generator from 17km away and had been attacking for some time before that. Assuming the generator is in the center of the umbrella this gives us an absolute lower limit of 34 km diameter, and almost certainly quite a bit further. There was no evidence of the walkers breaching obstacles when they were sighted, and since it appeared that they were first sighted "on the North ridge" it's very unlikely there were any forces deployed farther out to cover any obstacles.

Considering the rebels were fighting a rear guard action, buying time for escape, they did pretty well. Command and control was in effect uptill the end and they moved troops around to their best advantage. Even at the end, when Imperial troops were in Echo station and the Walkers had penetrated the rebel lines, Leia ordered a general retreat and STILL ordered troops to the 'south?' side to protect the fighters.

They continuly kepted manuvering to buy time and redeployed their troops as such. If anything, the Imperials should have steamed rolled them quicker but didn't.

The Original Nex wrote:The walkers proceeded to march through the energy shield (one of the advantages of walker (or indeed simply grounded) technology.

No Imperial aircraft got through the Rebel's shield.

So you mean to tell me its beyond the Empire's capability to have a grounded transport carry aircraft beneath a shield like the one at Hoth? We can build a Planet Busting Superlaser but we can't get a freaking TIE Fighter on a grounded transport?

True, but Luke wasn't fighting. Does anyone know how long an X-Wing or Y-Wing can go without refuelling in combat situations? Plus if, as some have suggested, AT-AT carry shield generators, how many hits from an X-Wing's laser cannons are required to down an AT-AT? How many are required even if it doesn't have some sort of shield generator? How much of the energy required would be required to help the transports fight out of the tightening Imperial noose? How much more fuel is required for atmospheric fighting than for space combat, especially considering the poor aerodynamic designs of space fighters? Considering their poor designs for atmospheric fighting, their incredible accelerations in space, how low can an X-Wing or Y-Wing fight within an atmosphere effectively? If there is a minimum effective fight and flight level, is it below the theatre shield. If they can fight effectively, do they need to use their repulsorlifts within a few hundred metres to maintain proper control? How does this affect fuel consumption? Now, while all the evidence we already have points to the very high fuel capacities due to extremely high energy densities present in everyday objects within the Star Wars universe, the most important thing to think about involving all these questions is to ask, "So how would all these factors affect Rebel decision-making processes?" Aside from Admiral Ozzel, very few military officers in the Star Wars universe have ever shown gross incompentence; arrogance, inflexibility, and in the case of the Rebels a willingness to trust in luck a bit too much, but they all know the capacities of their equipment and how to plan around it.

Also, with the tank trap part, you'll note that when the Rebels first see the Imperials approach their is a great cloud of smoke and/or steam in the background. Unless there was another position in the line where a battle took place, that was likely the landing site of the Imperial dropships. Thus the North Ridge was in visual range of the Imperial landing site and thus the edge of the shield. With AotC and the Battle of Genosis showing us the range of Star Wars infantry blasters, the Rebels could easily pick off any infantry trying to demolish the obstacles. And when I say they are positioned right on the perimeter, I mean as close to the interface between the shield and the ground as possible so that a tank, or Star Wars equivalent, could not bear weapons on the obstacles because they are on the other side of the shield, preventing movement forward through the shield. This would mean that only infantry prepared to demolish the obstacles or the AT-AT could clear a path, and for the AT-ATs to do that effectively they would have to turn around and expose their weaker rear armour to the enemy. While I know I only have conjecture and weak supporting evidence, I am still trying to come up with a mechanism to explain why Star Wars uses legged vehicles for attacking the enemy, and in the one instance where we saw a military force use vehicles in defense during a ground battle, they used a wheeled vehicle instead of the walkers they had in abundance already.

If anyone has any major qualms with my hypothesis, please tell me, but I am simply saying that given the circumstances, I think both sides knew exactly what they were doing, making this perhaps one of the more interesting battles in Star Wars to analyze.

Given the performance we see in both the Death Star actions, an X and Y Wing can easily last the time needed. Fuel shouldn't even begin to be a consideration.

The problem is like Knife so pointed out, they were performing a rear guard action. They split their forces to get as much as they could out of there and guard the transports with their limited star fighters.

Using these fighters to go against the walkers would mean yes they could take a few walkers down faster but would mean the delay of the transports from leaving and they knew they had no real defense against the Death Squadron. So their best option was to get out of Dodge with minimal casualities instead of performing a holding action that they could never win.