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As much I love KOTOR the Revan owns Vader because he has lvl 50 light saber skills type threads on other forums are getting annoying. We know Revan was one of the most powerful Force users of his / her time. But how powerful was he / she compared to others - like the famous Jedi and Siths of the movie era ?

No way of knowing based on game mechanics and his various possible builds.
We do know that Exar Kun maked him look like a pansy, but Kun would snot beat Palpatine in a straight fight so it's not much agaisnt him.

DEATH wrote:No way of knowing based on game mechanics and his various possible builds.
We do know that Exar Kun maked him look like a pansy, but Kun would snot beat Palpatine in a straight fight so it's not much agaisnt him.

I've seen this said before, but not accompanied with any justification? What evidence is there to back that up?

Darth Fanboy wrote:

DEATH wrote:No way of knowing based on game mechanics and his various possible builds.
We do know that Exar Kun maked him look like a pansy, but Kun would snot beat Palpatine in a straight fight so it's not much agaisnt him.

I've seen this said before, but not accompanied with any justification? What evidence is there to back that up?

Because the dual lightsaber are R0X0RS!!!!

Or some shit...

Darth Fanboy wrote:

DEATH wrote:No way of knowing based on game mechanics and his various possible builds.
We do know that Exar Kun maked him look like a pansy, but Kun would snot beat Palpatine in a straight fight so it's not much agaisnt him.

I've seen this said before, but not accompanied with any justification? What evidence is there to back that up?

Thr Rodarian in the space station say's that the new modern sith lords are nothing compared to Kun who "Made the earth shake", in other words the word of a trader who had lived through both and had seen the effects of Kun and Revan.

DEATH wrote:

Darth Fanboy wrote:

DEATH wrote:No way of knowing based on game mechanics and his various possible builds.
We do know that Exar Kun maked him look like a pansy, but Kun would snot beat Palpatine in a straight fight so it's not much agaisnt him.

I've seen this said before, but not accompanied with any justification? What evidence is there to back that up?

Thr Rodarian in the space station say's that the new modern sith lords are nothing compared to Kun who "Made the earth shake", in other words the word of a trader who had lived through both and had seen the effects of Kun and Revan.

Which is pretty much hyperbole.

Revan is powerfull enough to make Malak his bitch, but beond that I don't know, sure the Yavin trader said that Kun was more powerfull, but his not best possible source (being right next Kun's main base and IIRC a long way from where Revan and Malak fought).

Exar Kun's greatest accomplishments:

• he healed his entire body from being near death to full health in that crystal cave (on Korriban, I believe) with the aid of the spirit of Freedon Nadd;
• he destroyed that worm thing the Massassi had worshipped as a god with a Sith amulet and proceeded to annihilate Nadd's spirit with the same item;
• he used Sith alchemy to warp many of the Massassi into more powerful warriors, practical beasts;
• he fought with Ulic Qel-Droma to a standstill in a lightsabre battle after assaulting Ulic and Aleema Keto's fortress (I might be mistaken about this);
• he killed Master Odan-Urr (possibly by forcing his body to age more rapidly or something like that, the comic wasn't clear);
• he converted/corrupted several Jedi by destroying the Sith holocron he had stolen from Odan-Urr;
• he put some kind of a Sith spell on the entire Senate Hall, preventing the Senators from fleeing or doing anything besides drooling and watching;
• he fought with Master Vodo-Siosk Baas and after a harrowing battle, killed him by using his custom-made double-bladed lightsabre, and;
• he used Massassi people's life energies to make himself a Force ghost

As to Palpatine:

• he hid his presence from the most powerful Jedi Masters for over a decade, even being in close friendship with the famous Jedi Master Jorus C'baoth;
• he bested Darth Maul in a lightsabre duel after the younger Sith had fully embraced the rage of the dark side after Lord Sidious had daunted him after a series of harrowing and cruel tests on a hellish Outer Rim planet;
• he killed three Jedi Masters within few minutes and fought Mace Windu for some considerable time (although being beaten in the end);
• he used Force lightning powerful enough to make bones glow on Mace and threw him outside of the Supreme Chancellor's office's window;
• he fought with Master Yoda to a standstill (more or less) - something Count Dooku had failed to do, and even Mace Windu (it was said in WotC's Power of the Jedi supplement that Mace had been bested only by Yoda and Dooku);
• he killed at several rebellious stormtroopers all by himself by using Force lightning;
• he found a way to move his spirit to a new body after his old one became too weak and frail and employed this several times, most notably during the Dark Empire comic series (and it was suggested that he had done so before the Battle of Endor);
• he could transfer the spirits of other beings into new bodies, as well, as evidenced by Chief Engineer Bevel Lemelisk's account in Darksabre;
• he could boost his subjects' fighting spirit and morale through the Force, similar to the ways of the Jedi battle meditation but using the dark side (and it appears to be more of a mind control than Jedi battle meditation, which enhances allies' strengths and diminishes enemies' abilities to make clear and confident decisions);
• he a) clouded the minds of billions of Coruscant's inhabitants and/or b) just executed those said billions to allow Lusankya's undetected burial on the said planet to act as his escape vessel if needed;
• he used some Force technique (perhaps similar to Darth Nihilus's powers) to snuff out the life energies of millions, perhaps even billions, of those who were allowed to "inhabit" Byss to make that place stronger in the Force in order to boost the Emperor's already considerable powers (the hapless victims were lured into Byss with promises of fertile new lands and opening the Deep Core for wider habitation);
• he learned how to summon Force storms and send them through hyperspace. These storms were capable of destroying capital ships the size of the Eclipse-class battleships, so they had incredible power in them;
• he used Sith alchemy to create chrysaelis beasts that guarded his citadel on Byss, and;
• he could also grant someone Force abilities and/or sensitivity, as is seen in his Dark Jedi servants (and in the shadow droids employed in the attack on Balmorra) during the Dark Empire series. It is unknown whether these Dark Jedi had Force potential before Palpatine made them his Dark Jedi warriors, but at least they retained their newly granted powers even after their master's death.

So, I'd say that Palpatine does have more power than old Exar.

And as to Revan - we don't know much about his abilities and powers. He managed to learn many of the secrets of Malachor's Trayus Academy and could use those secrets to corrupt and dominate Force-sensitive people and make them into Dark Jedi assassins (I think that Kreia said this in KotOR II, but I'm not sure). He was an excellent military leader, a skilled lightsabre-user and powerful enough that Darth Malak did not trust the Jedi strike team to take him out all on their own and fired his warship's armaments at Revan's flagship, knocking the Dark Lord out. And Revan proved to be an astounding student both before and after Malak's betrayal - Kreia noted that Revan had been an excellent and quick-witted student and reformed Revan relearned the ways of the Force exceedingly quick on Dantooine's Jedi enclave. He also bested Darth Malak alone on the Star Forge and the master of the Sith Academy and his treacherous twi'lek assistant were also defeated by Revan alone. Beyond that, there is not much to say.

Personally I'd place him somewhere around Ulic and Exar's power level or maybe higher. Perhaps even as powerful as Palpatine, but since information is scarce about Revan's abilities, it is next to impossible to say it with any certainty.

DEATH wrote:

Darth Fanboy wrote:

DEATH wrote:No way of knowing based on game mechanics and his various possible builds.
We do know that Exar Kun maked him look like a pansy, but Kun would snot beat Palpatine in a straight fight so it's not much agaisnt him.

I've seen this said before, but not accompanied with any justification? What evidence is there to back that up?

Thr Rodarian in the space station say's that the new modern sith lords are nothing compared to Kun who "Made the earth shake", in other words the word of a trader who had lived through both and had seen the effects of Kun and Revan.

So we take the word of a Rodian who was only even barely aware that the Jedi Civil War was going on, and probably wasn't that authoritative on the true capabilities of Exar Kun as an authoritative figure on how Revan measures up to Exar Kun? When the guys reaction is basically, "Darth Malak, who's that?" you shouldn't jump to use him on something that requires more then base knowledge of who Revan and Malak were.

We do know that Revan took down Yusani of the Echani and Mandalore but how is unclear. For the descriptions given on these they could have been duels or via Force powers and Malachor V respectively.

One thing Revan clearly is thoughis clever. Even the Mandalorians like Canderous wax on poetic about his strategy and planning ability. From what can be learned from Atton, HK-47, and to a degree Kreia he also developed ways for normal people to defeat Jedi. Other then apparently being perhaps a more realistic Thrawn type character with force powers I doubt we have the data conclusively one way or the other.

Kreia commenting on him being basically the power of the Force made manifest and you being the death of the Force isn't really quantifiable. This is part of why I'm hoping KOTOR3 will have lots of cutscene type incident with Revan showing what Revan can really do.

One thing Reven had on any movie Sith Lord or Apprentice was that he could influence beings for mor in depth then Vader or Sidious. I mean did you ever see or read about Vader going to a planet, using the force to influence the beings so he can understand them, them then going back and not realizing it, that every being on that planet is now speaking the language of the Sith or Dark Jedi if you will?

2) I dont think Sidious or Vader would have been able to go to the Unknown regions and defeat the whole Mandalorian force at its highest point like Reven and Malak did. The old saying (i think this is how it goes) Id rather my worst enemy watch my back then my friend. I mean Vader has befriended Boba Fett, one of the Mandalorians (the last really) mainly cause he cant trust him to have Fett just floating around out there.

in a fight Reven/Malak vs Sidious/Vader = Reven/Malak

Tychu wrote:One thing Reven had on any movie Sith Lord or Apprentice was that he could influence beings for mor in depth then Vader or Sidious. I mean did you ever see or read about Vader going to a planet, using the force to influence the beings so he can understand them, them then going back and not realizing it, that every being on that planet is now speaking the language of the Sith or Dark Jedi if you will?

Ummm...you do realize the whole Lus affair puts a certain perspective of Palpatine's metal capabilities.

2) I dont think Sidious or Vader would have been able to go to the Unknown regions and defeat the whole Mandalorian force at its highest point like Reven and Malak did. The old saying (i think this is how it goes) Id rather my worst enemy watch my back then my friend. I mean Vader has befriended Boba Fett, one of the Mandalorians (the last really) mainly cause he cant trust him to have Fett just floating around out there.

Yeah, because it was only Revan and Malak...and not Revan and Malak's FLEET.

in a fight Reven/Malak vs Sidious/Vader = Reven/Malak

I would love to see something quantifiable in this regard.

One thing is this, Palpatine and Vader always killed the Jedi they came across. Malak and Reven are able to not only fight but then take them prisoner. Lock them up, bind their force powers so they cant escape, then while they are fighting arguably the strongest Jedi left they can suck up the life force of the captured Jedi and then quickly use it against the one they are fighting.

Palpatine however seems to just do a one two to quickly dispatch his enemy cause he knows he will faulter easily when the battle streatches. Point is clear Mace had Palpatine pinned, Mace only faulterd when Anakin showed up. Vader was great until he was stuck in the suit, i dont believe that the suit has a good periphial vision and if he fought many Jedi at once he would be struck down quite easily, its to big and unwieldy.

Now if the battle was Young Sidoious/Palpatine and No suit Vader things probally will go the other way

But the thing is both Reven and Malak are rather young and they can use the force much more liberaly

Tychu wrote:One thing is this, Palpatine and Vader always killed the Jedi they came across. Malak and Reven are able to not only fight but then take them prisoner. Lock them up, bind their force powers so they cant escape, then while they are fighting arguably the strongest Jedi left they can suck up the life force of the captured Jedi and then quickly use it against the one they are fighting.

So this proves Vader and Palpatine weaker...how again?

Really, aside from your opinion, how again?

Palpatine however seems to just do a one two to quickly dispatch his enemy cause he knows he will faulter easily when the battle streatches. Point is clear Mace had Palpatine pinned, Mace only faulterd when Anakin showed up. Vader was great until he was stuck in the suit, i dont believe that the suit has a good periphial vision and if he fought many Jedi at once he would be struck down quite easily, its to big and unwieldy.

This proves Revan and Malak are stronger how?

Now if the battle was Young Sidoious/Palpatine and No suit Vader things probally will go the other way

But the thing is both Reven and Malak are rather young and they can use the force much more liberaly

I'll just repeat this:

"I would love to see something quantifiable in this regard."

Because you didn't even give a laundry list of abilities, you gave your opinion.

im not sure what you mean by Lus

but Palpatine was only using the force to cloak himself from the Jedi. Cloaking oneself is diffrent then influincing ones mind. Reven and Malak Influenced the minds of the inhabinants. Palpatine created the war so that the Jedi would be distracted and not focusing all their energy searching Palpatine for the truth. He just hid like a scared child nothing more.
And when it came close for him being found out (the Republic issue that has the flashback of some random Jedi master being killed and then the Valorium one) Palpatine just simply killed off Valorium and hid himself from teh Jedi when he wanted to test the midochlorians on all politicians and then just simply murderd him, stabbed him in the back if you will.
Palpatine was not a greater force user than Reven
he was a better politician, which makes him stronger but not force stronger

Ghost Rider wrote:

Tychu wrote:One thing is this, Palpatine and Vader always killed the Jedi they came across. Malak and Reven are able to not only fight but then take them prisoner. Lock them up, bind their force powers so they cant escape, then while they are fighting arguably the strongest Jedi left they can suck up the life force of the captured Jedi and then quickly use it against the one they are fighting.

So this proves Vader and Palpatine weaker...how again?

Really, aside from your opinion, how again?

its simple. In the time in question Malak and Reven are younger, not impaired by injuries. Qui-Gon was older than Obi-Wan. Qui-Gon got beat by Maul. Obi-Wan beat Maul. The Young are stronger than the old. The old are wiswer than the Young. Thats how it goes.. Physically the Young are stronger. Mentally the old is stronger. In a straight Lightsaber/Force fighte Malak and Reven would best Vader and Sidious

Tychu wrote:im not sure what you mean by Lus

So while this thing was being hidden and constructed...Coruscant was told to look the other way?!

but Palpatine was only using the force to cloak himself from the Jedi. Cloaking oneself is diffrent then influincing ones mind. Reven and Malak Influenced the minds of the inhabinants. Palpatine created the war so that the Jedi would be distracted and not focusing all their energy searching Palpatine for the truth. He just hid like a scared child nothing more.

Strange that the AoTC and RoTS novel disagree with you and actually show that the Jedi are affected by HIS shroud.

And when it came close for him being found out (the Republic issue that has the flashback of some random Jedi master being killed and then the Valorium one) Palpatine just simply killed off Valorium and hid himself from teh Jedi when he wanted to test the midochlorians on all politicians and then just simply murderd him, stabbed him in the back if you will.

So when Obi Wan commented about the shroud not being lifted...what he was talking out his ass?

Palpatine was not a greater force user than Reven
he was a better politician, which makes him stronger but not force stronger

You really have not shown proof one towards this in any form then your supposition.

Tychu wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:

Tychu wrote:One thing is this, Palpatine and Vader always killed the Jedi they came across. Malak and Reven are able to not only fight but then take them prisoner. Lock them up, bind their force powers so they cant escape, then while they are fighting arguably the strongest Jedi left they can suck up the life force of the captured Jedi and then quickly use it against the one they are fighting.

So this proves Vader and Palpatine weaker...how again?

Really, aside from your opinion, how again?

its simple. In the time in question Malak and Reven are younger, not impaired by injuries. Qui-Gon was older than Obi-Wan. Qui-Gon got beat by Maul. Obi-Wan beat Maul. The Young are stronger than the old. The old are wiswer than the Young. Thats how it goes.. Physically the Young are stronger. Mentally the old is stronger. In a straight Lightsaber/Force fighte Malak and Reven would best Vader and Sidious

That has to be one of the more undiluted piles of horse shit I've seen in a long while.

You watched the same movies, right?

im clearly not going to get the point of what you want. The idea of this post was just to show how strong Reven was. Not who is stronger, i know i leaned towards that.

Just one question well 2,

I havent watched AOTC or ROTS in a while but When does Obi Wan say the shroud hasnt lifted

and 2 When Yoda says at the end of AOTC that the Shroud of the Dark Side has fallen does he mean that it falls on the Jedi. Cause if thats the case how does he know of the Shroud
or does he mean that its over, the Jedi know of the Sith. Which will then very much weaking Palpatines shroud. The Jedi know of him. In my opinion the Jedi knew that someone highup in the government was the Sith lord and even Palpatine could have been it. They just didnt know how to act or were afraid that something like what happend in ROTS did occur and they would be public enemy number 1

Tychu wrote:im clearly not going to get the point of what you want. The idea of this post was just to show how strong Reven was. Not who is stronger, i know i leaned towards that.

But you proved nothing EXCEPT he has some mental capabilities.

Nothing that can be quantified.

Just one question well 2,

I havent watched AOTC or ROTS in a while but When does Obi Wan say the shroud hasnt lifted

and 2 When Yoda says at the end of AOTC that the Shroud of the Dark Side has fallen does he mean that it falls on the Jedi. Cause if thats the case how does he know of the Shroud
or does he mean that its over, the Jedi know of the Sith. Which will then very much weaking Palpatines shroud. The Jedi know of him. In my opinion the Jedi knew that someone highup in the government was the Sith lord and even Palpatine could have been it. They just didnt know how to act or were afraid that something like what happend in ROTS did occur and they would be public enemy number 1

When Obi Wan mentions that the shorud is still interfering with HIS powers in the RoTS novel(after the death of Count Dooku)...this is a little bit of an indication, that it's affecting the Jedi.

In fact teh novel describes at points the shroud being lifted and Obi Wan feeling the way he did in TPM.

So tell me how Palpatine is WEAKENING again?

Tychu wrote:im clearly not going to get the point of what you want. The idea of this post was just to show how strong Reven was. Not who is stronger, i know i leaned towards that.

You have been asked to provide evidence to support claims you made, which you have not done.

Just one question well 2,

I havent watched AOTC or ROTS in a while but When does Obi Wan say the shroud hasnt lifted

and 2 When Yoda says at the end of AOTC that the Shroud of the Dark Side has fallen does he mean that it falls on the Jedi. Cause if thats the case how does he know of the Shroud
or does he mean that its over, the Jedi know of the Sith. Which will then very much weaking Palpatines shroud. The Jedi know of him. In my opinion the Jedi knew that someone highup in the government was the Sith lord and even Palpatine could have been it. They just didnt know how to act or were afraid that something like what happend in ROTS did occur and they would be public enemy number 1

I suggest you read Labyrinth of Evil and the RoTS Novelization. Not only will it tell you a few things about your little 'insights', but they provide good examples of sentence and paragraph structure.

How valid are those cutscenes at the end where Malak is ordering his droid army, followed by all the apprentices and troops out on Revan, who basically just had Jedi 101 (you only had a neophyte padawan's level of training) and instincts, just to slow Revan down? Admitedly one could rationalize without game mechanics almost the entire crew of the Ebon Hawk was backing Revan up, but considering that going by cutscenes the small squad of Jedi going along got wiped out against the droids...

If those are valid then Revan should probably be at least on par with the Jedi at Geonosis that survived more due to skill then luck. Revan is clearly powerful, but how powerful is the problem.

As for the Mandalorian War, are those backing Revan's capability using that forgetting he basically ended up using Malachor V and that generator thing to devestate the Mandalorian fleet while continuing his other plans? It is clear from the respect both the Echani and Mandalorians hold Revan in that the guy was good, but going overboard serves no one. Showing why is important, if you want to make a claim of superiority.

The problem with Revan and Malak is that IIRC we know about their powers only thru rumours and game mechanics neither of which is a relieble source (Kreia isn't a relieble source).

I always considered Revan's true power to be his mind. He was a strategic and tactical genius and he was manuvering everyone throughout the Mandalorian and Jedi Civil Wars.

Part of this belief is the fact that Bastilla's Battle Meditation was considered enough to turn the tide against Revan and only a handful of Jedi including Bastilla were considered enough to capture Revan.

There were no feats in cutscenes or stroy wise that indicated Revan was anything but an above average Jedi but who was probably the smartest one around. He won through guile and sheer force of will gutting out the search for the Starforge and manipulating all the parties he met - particualrly those on the Starforge homeworld to do what he needed them to do.

So Revan IMO was not a powerhouse, he was a schemer of the nth degree that could put Palpy to shame.

Stravo wrote:I always considered Revan's true power to be his mind. He was a strategic and tactical genius and he was manuvering everyone throughout the Mandalorian and Jedi Civil Wars.

Part of this belief is the fact that Bastilla's Battle Meditation was considered enough to turn the tide against Revan and only a handful of Jedi including Bastilla were considered enough to capture Revan.

There were no feats in cutscenes or stroy wise that indicated Revan was anything but an above average Jedi but who was probably the smartest one around. He won through guile and sheer force of will gutting out the search for the Starforge and manipulating all the parties he met - particualrly those on the Starforge homeworld to do what he needed them to do.

So Revan IMO was not a powerhouse, he was a schemer of the nth degree that could put Palpy to shame.

Well did relearn the Jedi skills in a very short time and he was more powefull then Malak, though I do agree that Revan's true power was his charisma and manipulation skills

Stravo wrote:So Revan IMO was not a powerhouse, he was a schemer of the nth degree that could put Palpy to shame.

Of course, Palpatine actually succeeded in taking over the galaxy, but then again we don't know what the hell he (Revan) did after KOTOR and during KOTOR II other than take off for parts unknown.