Kamino supplied clones to the Empire

[The Original Nex]

It seems self evident upon viewing and listening to AotC. Let's look at the facts.

-We know it takes Kaminoan clones 10 years to mature, as per Lama Su's comment to Obi-wan ". . .now we can do it [grow clones to maturity] in half the time."
-We see clones fetuses in late term sustained in artificial wombs
-We see clones appox. five years of age (10 years old relative)
-We know this scene takes place 3 years before the rise of the Empire.

Now those 5 year old clones won't be ready to fight for another five years, two years into the rise of the Empire. Those clone fetuses will not be ready for deployment for ten years, seven years into the Empire.

So, can it not be concluded that Kamino continued to supply the galaxy with clone forces at least 7 years into the Empire's rule?

[Solauren]

Probably.

The question is, however

were the Kamino 'clone factories' taken over by the Empire or not
were the clones simply removed and then the Emperor go 'oh well, I don't need Kamino anymore...' and BDZ the planet

[Darth Servo]

Probably.

The question is, however

were the Kamino 'clone factories' taken over by the Empire or not
were the clones simply removed and then the Emperor go 'oh well, I don't need Kamino anymore...' and BDZ the planet

While the evidence does show that in the OT era, Imperial troops were recruited the old fashioned way, and so palpy has no more need for Kamino, why would he destroy them? He didn't destroy any of the other corporations that helped build the Imperial war machine.

[The Original Nex]

Probably.

The question is, however

were the Kamino 'clone factories' taken over by the Empire or not
were the clones simply removed and then the Emperor go 'oh well, I don't need Kamino anymore...' and BDZ the planet

While the evidence does show that in the OT era, Imperial troops were recruited the old fashioned way, and so palpy has no more need for Kamino, why would he destroy them? He didn't destroy any of the other corporations that helped build the Imperial war machine.

Some of the Stormies were recruits and conscripts. But many were still clones, of both Jango Fett and other templates.

[Fire Fly]

From starwars.com:

Following the rise of the Empire, the military cloning program expanded to include new clone hosts. By the time of the Empire consolidated its power by dissolving the Senate, the ranks of the Imperial stormtroopers would include cloned infantry from multiple sources as well as birth-born conscripts and recruits from various worlds.

[000]

Kamino was apparently devastated toward the end of the clone war, however, so it's likely that a large amount of the young clones and fetuses were destroyed in the attack.

[Lord Sander]

To quote my Geonosis and the Outer Rim Worlds,

Scant months after the first delivery of clone troops to the Republic, Kamino was attacked by Confederacy forces intent on crippling the Tipoca City facilities.
...
Though there was extensive damage to the facilities and many of the clones in progress were destroyed, the Jedi teams were ultimately able to defeat the invading forces.

But there's also the suggestion Kamino is still thriving well into the NJO.

[Mange]

Well, according to George Lucas, the Storm Troopers are composed of both clones and conscripts:

"The idea is that over time, there were new clone strains introduced, and then they even conscripted guys to be Storm Troopers. So it's not just purely clones: It started out as clones, but then it got diluted over the years as they found out they could shanghai guys [more cheaply] than they could build clones."

Source: http://filmforce.ign.com/articles/613/613366p1.html

Nothing is said about Kamino though, but of course, when Palpatine doesn't have to build clones in secret, Kamino wouldn't be as important.

[Kurgan]

Wasn't there an EU story about an 80 (!?) year old trooper "veteran of the Clone Wars" who thought the battle was still going on that Luke & co. encountered?

I want to read that story...

[Captain tycho]

Wasn't there an EU story about an 80 (!?) year old trooper "veteran of the Clone Wars" who thought the battle was still going on that Luke & co. encountered?

I want to read that story...

How is that even possible? The clones weren't supposed to live more than 20 years at the most, unless he was in stasis.

[Kurgan]

Wasn't there an EU story about an 80 (!?) year old trooper "veteran of the Clone Wars" who thought the battle was still going on that Luke & co. encountered?

I want to read that story...

How is that even possible? The clones weren't supposed to live more than 20 years at the most, unless he was in stasis.

Wait, since when do they have a "die on date" like Bladerunner replicants?

I heard somebody talking about it on a forum, can't remember honestly.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Wasn't there an EU story about an 80 (!?) year old trooper "veteran of the Clone Wars" who thought the battle was still going on that Luke & co. encountered?

I want to read that story...

How is that even possible? The clones weren't supposed to live more than 20 years at the most, unless he was in stasis.

Wait, since when do they have a "die on date" like Bladerunner replicants?

I heard somebody talking about it on a forum, can't remember honestly.

Some sources have suggested the accelerated aging cannot be turned off once the desired level of maturity has been reached.

[Lord Sander]

Some sources have suggested the accelerated aging cannot be turned off once the desired level of maturity has been reached.

Which has some support from ROTS; Clones looking as old as Jango already.

[Noble Ire]

Some sources have suggested the accelerated aging cannot be turned off once the desired level of maturity has been reached.

Hard Contact indicates that clones age at a rate more than twice that of regular humans all of their lives. There is a quote in it from a retired clone who is listed as "Chronological Age: 23, Biological Age: 60."

[The Original Nex]

However we also know that "60s" is middle-aged for humans in Star Wars (ref. Survivor's Quest), implying an average human lifespan is around 120-130 years. So the Kaminoan clones should easily be able to live to age 60 or 70.

[Noble Ire]

However we also know that "60s" is middle-aged for humans in Star Wars (ref. Survivor's Quest), implying an average human lifespan is around 120-130 years. So the Kaminoan clones should easily be able to live to age 60 or 70.

The passage indicated that the clone in question was long retired, and in a Vet Center. It is possible that clone's simply burn out after a few decades, from their genetic modification, or simple over-work.

[Kurgan]

How is that even possible? The clones weren't supposed to live more than 20 years at the most, unless he was in stasis.

Wait, since when do they have a "die on date" like Bladerunner replicants?

I heard somebody talking about it on a forum, can't remember honestly.

Some sources have suggested the accelerated aging cannot be turned off once the desired level of maturity has been reached.

Why would a clone die naturally at age 60? (he's 30 years old in normal terms, so that makes him 60 in clone terms with 2x acceleration, assuming the acceleration doesn't magically stop at some point, which I never assumed). I keep hearing how in the Star Wars universe they have such amazing medical tech that people live a long time. 60 is considered a bit early even in terms of 21st century first world nations.

There were a couple of EU stories about the heroes uncovering old battle droids that still worked. I realize the desire of EU authors to acknowledge the newly created prequel "history" in the post-ROTJ world, but the clone story really threw me for a loop. I wish I knew where it was featured. Star Wars Tales perhaps? Maybe it's not canon...

Some sources have suggested the accelerated aging cannot be turned off once the desired level of maturity has been reached.

Hard Contact indicates that clones age at a rate more than twice that of regular humans all of their lives. There is a quote in it from a retired clone who is listed as "Chronological Age: 23, Biological Age: 60."

That contradicts what we learned in AOTC wherein the clones only age "twice as fast" as normal humans (so a clone would be chronologically aged 23 and biologically aged 46, not 60). I guess this could be some later "hyper accelerated model" if you want to gel the store sources. My question about the above though is... was this a Republic soldier? Because the Republic only ordered their army "10 years ago" (Hard Contact takes place between AOTC and ROTS, correct?). So he couldn't have been more than 26 years old in Clone years. I assume this was from some other Kaminoean order, otherwise it would be a glaring inconsistency.

[Kurgan]

Some sources have suggested the accelerated aging cannot be turned off once the desired level of maturity has been reached.

Which has some support from ROTS; Clones looking as old as Jango already.

Jango is what, 38? So a 13 year old Clone isn't too hard to imagine. The order was made "10 years ago" in AOTC, and then 3 years pass before ROTS. So the Clone's biological age (a first batch clone that survived all the fighting up till now) would be 26. Granted, Temeura Morrison is not ageless, but that fits Bodie Taylor's age during the filming pretty closely.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting that a 60 year old clone is "fit for combat" (though the EU has Boba Fett doing fine for himself in his 60's apparently) but that's a far cry from "dead."

[JME2]

I wish I knew where it was featured. Star Wars Tales perhaps? Maybe it's not canon...

The Star Wars: Empire comic-series, I believe.

[Noble Ire]

That contradicts what we learned in AOTC wherein the clones only age "twice as fast" as normal humans (so a clone would be chronologically aged 23 and biologically aged 46, not 60). I guess this could be some later "hyper accelerated model" if you want to gel the store sources. My question about the above though is... was this a Republic soldier? Because the Republic only ordered their army "10 years ago" (Hard Contact takes place between AOTC and ROTS, correct?). So he couldn't have been more than 26 years old in Clone years. I assume this was from some other Kaminoean order, otherwise it would be a glaring inconsistency.

How does the fact that clones age slightly faster than the rate mentioned off-hand in film make it a contradiction? It's not like Lama Su pulled out a computer display and demonstrated the exact aging rate to the nanosecond, and the times are fairly close anyways. As to the date, the passage in question is one of the quote headings that adorn each chapter. They are clearly not chronological (I'm fairly sure that it mentions the clone is in an Imperial Vet center.)

Anyway, I'm not suggesting that a 60 year old clone is "fit for combat" (though the EU has Boba Fett doing fine for himself in his 60's apparently) but that's a far cry from "dead."

Boba is an unmodified clone, no growth acceleration.

[Kurgan]

How does the fact that clones age slightly faster than the rate mentioned off-hand in film make it a contradiction? It's not like Lama Su pulled out a computer display and demonstrated the exact aging rate to the nanosecond, and the times are fairly close anyways.

Because he's the expert and representative of the Kamino scientists, not just some random tour-guide! This isn't some off-hand comment, this is the person telling you about the product you already purchased in a careful manner. Saying 2x growth acceleration and "over 2x growth acceleration" are different. And isn't Taun We in the same room when the comment is made (I can't remember)? If so then you'd think between the two of them they'd know something about the product they spent all those years creating and overseeing.

Saying a clone is 60 years old rather than 46 is a big difference! And when there's a contradiction, the movie overrules.

To rationalize it, either this lesser source is in error or they're talking about a different cloning process from a later time.

As to the date, the passage in question is one of the quote headings that adorn each chapter. They are clearly not chronological (I'm fairly sure that it mentions the clone is in an Imperial Vet center.)

Well that's tricky because the Republic becomes the Empire in ROTS. Are you saying he's a Stormtrooper (not a veteran of the Clone Wars)? Perhaps I heard wrong then. I got the impression this guy was supposed to be from the Republic era. If it wasn't meant to be then nevermind. It could be the Empire uses different processes that result in even faster acceleration than the Kaminoean process we learn about in AOTC.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting that a 60 year old clone is "fit for combat" (though the EU has Boba Fett doing fine for himself in his 60's apparently) but that's a far cry from "dead."

Boba is an unmodified clone, no growth acceleration.

He's in his 60's and kicking ass in the NJO era, so I hear. How can he do that?! If he can do that, then a 60 year old (30 year old chronologically) Jango Clone can do the same.

[Noble Ire]

Saying a clone is 60 years old rather than 46 is a big difference! And when there's a contradiction, the movie overrules.

To rationalize it, either this lesser source is in error or they're talking about a different cloning process from a later time.

Lama Su is a salesman. It's wiser to make your presentation as concise as possible, especially if your dealing with someone who isn't easily manipulated by technical jargon. If they want more info later, they can ask for it.

In any event, your still not providing any proof of a contradiction. It's a minor semantics difference, nothing more, and the EU fits in just fine.

Well that's tricky because the Republic becomes the Empire in ROTS. Are you saying he's a Stormtrooper (not a veteran of the Clone Wars)? Perhaps I heard wrong then. I got the impression this guy was supposed to be from the Republic era. If it wasn't meant to be then nevermind. It could be the Empire uses different processes that result in even faster acceleration than the Kaminoean process we learn about in AOTC.

The only reason I mentioned the Imperial descriptor (I may be wrong this, it may have simply said Courscant or something) is to place it in the appropriate time frame.

Edit: I checked, it simply says Coruscant Vetcenter, but he is definately a Republic Clone Trooper, meaning that the qoute is chronologically during the Imperial period, and fits into the time line.

He's in his 60's and kicking ass in the NJO era, so I hear. How can he do that?!

As someone already said, in the SW galaxy, 60 is middle age. An active and fit person of middle age is fully capable of "kicking ass."

If he can do that, then a 60 year old (30 year old chronologically) Jango Clone can do the same.

Maybe they can. However, the one mentioned in RC: Hard Contact, apparently is too old or worn.

[Kurgan]

Saying a clone is 60 years old rather than 46 is a big difference! And when there's a contradiction, the movie overrules.

To rationalize it, either this lesser source is in error or they're talking about a different cloning process from a later time.

Lama Su is a salesman. It's wiser to make your presentation as concise as possible, especially if your dealing with someone who isn't easily manipulated by technical jargon. If they want more info later, they can ask for it.

In any event, your still not providing any proof of a contradiction. It's a minor semantics difference, nothing more, and the EU fits in just fine.

Minor?? 14 years difference is minor? Lama Su isn't selling anything, the army is already purchased, he's just "there to inspect the units" (so they think). If it were really 3x growth acceleration and Lama Su said 2x instead, that's a major oversight, and he should know better than to be off by such a margin.

I'm not sure what we gain by making the G-level source in error...

The only reason I mentioned the Imperial descriptor (I may be wrong this, it may have simply said Courscant or something) is to place it in the appropriate time frame.

Edit: I checked, it simply says Coruscant Vetcenter, but he is definately a Republic Clone Trooper, meaning that the qoute is chronologically during the Imperial period, and fits into the time line.

Ok, thanks! Though that still doesn't help matters much...

As someone already said, in the SW galaxy, 60 is middle age. An active and fit person of middle age is fully capable of "kicking ass."

And yet they have to be "retired" (per your source). Why does Boba Fett get to kick ass at 61 years of age, but people are incredulous and assume clones must be "dead" or useless at the same age?

Maybe they can. However, the one mentioned in RC: Hard Contact, apparently is too old or worn.

Well I can understand if he's injured and infirm from his many trials and tribulations. From the bare quote and the way its being used we're given the impression that it's the age acceleration that's put him out to pasture though, wouldn't you agree? That's what I'm arguing against. The EU can't have it both ways... they can't magically make Fett able to continue on but his Dad's clones can't at the same age. If we just go by the movies as well, it wouldn't be improbable to have some Republic era clones still alive in the OT period.

[Noble Ire]

Minor?? You call 13 years difference minor? Lama Su isn't selling anything, the army is already purchased, he's just "there to inspect the units" (so they think). If it were really 3x growth acceleration and Lama Su said 2x instead, that's a major oversight, and he should know better than to be off by such a margin.

I'm not sure what we gain by making the G-level source in error...

And I don't know what we gain by throwing out a non-contradicted EU source without reason. Again, the verbal difference is minor in the grand scheme of things; Lama Su was making it clear how they were able to create an army so quickly, and that the troops were not normal human beings. I'm sure if there had been discussion of the trooper's effective longevity, he would have been more specific, but the contex it was used in did not require such specification.

Well I can understand if he's injured and infirm from his many trials and tribulations. From the bare quote and the way its being used we're given the impression that it's the age acceleration that's put him out to pasture though, wouldn't you agree? That's what I'm arguing against. The EU can't have it both ways... they can't magically make Fett able to continue on but his Dad's clones can't at the same age. If we just go by the movies as well, it wouldn't be improbable to have some Republic era clones still alive in the OT period.

I'm not saying that it is impossible that there are original clones left in the OT. I'm simply mentioning that the clone in the book is not combat able (presumably) and he is only 60. He may of course be otherwise disabled, I'm not discounting that, but it is also possible that the accelerated aging has a straining effect on the body, and they get drained faster than regular humans, even taking into account the acceleration.

[Kurgan]

And I don't know what we gain by throwing out a non-contradicted EU source without reason. Again, the verbal difference is minor in the grand scheme of things; Lama Su was making it clear how they were able to create an army so quickly, and that the troops were not normal human beings. I'm sure if there had been discussion of the trooper's effective longevity, he would have been more specific, but the contex it was used in did not require such specification.

We need not throw out the entire source, merely the error (by "error" I mean something that conflicts with the higher source). Obviously we need not throw it out if it's not an error. But you're implying that we should be interpreting the movie in light of the second source rather than the other way around.

Lama Su could also be outright lying. The whole operation could be a huge bungle or conjob (their reputation has to be maintained, so perhaps they lied). It's possible, but I don't assume it.

I'm not saying that it is impossible that there are original clones left in the OT. I'm simply mentioning that the clone in the book is not combat able (presumably) and he is only 60.

We can rule that out since the EU also has Boba Fett fighting well into his sixties and other characters of that age are not said to be infirm. His retirement probably has to do with other factors. I can understand a military not pushing their soldiers to fight at that age, but then he's a clone, apparently with lesser rights than your average human. If the Republic was desperate to have every man in the field possible, perhaps they would push things a bit.

He may of course be otherwise disabled, I'm not discounting that, but it is also possible that the accelerated aging has a straining effect on the body, and they get drained faster than regular humans, even taking into account the acceleration.

But saying he's biologically 60 is still saying he's biologically 60, not 80 or something else. It's true Boba Fett can choose to fight as an individual while he's 60 and the military may have a cutoff that once you're biologically over 40 they don't want you anymore as a grunt, but you're saying here that its more likely this guy is not physically capable of fighting anymore, most likely caused by his physical old age.

If the Clones have other problems in addition to accelerated aging that we don't know about, this could be a factor yes. Perhaps they have a wasting brain disease that also accelerates somehow. But if a 60 year old man is fight capable, then his clone who's also 60 (even if he'll be 80 sooner than his 60 year old twin) should probably also be, barring some other problem.

I read the thread about the absurdity of each trooper needing to kill 6 billion droids in order to keep up the war effort (lol!), but still, if they're desperate, they will send middle aged men into the field.