StarDestroyer.Net BBS

+http://blogs.starwars.com/JackBauer24/18

Good to know some dumbasses over there specifically told Karen that it would be okay, and that people on SW.com apparently believe that because suspension of disbelief exists it is therefore okay to do whatever the hell you feel like. How do they remember to breath?

I have never seen anyone so completely misunderstand and distort SoD, and I have posted as such. I wonder how long it takes for me to be shouted down and told by a Mod I better stop commenting there too?

And these people are the same breed of moron fan that destroy any fictional universe.

They will swallow any and all tripe because they cannot and will not accept any criticism of their fave fictional world.

Yes of course. They are the same breed of fan that kept watching every episode Star Trek Voyager and Enterprise. Swallowing the garbage and shit that Bevis & Butthead kept shovelling out.

stupid fanwhore wrote:To answer that, I'm going to use my favorite television show as an example. 24 is one of the most exciting, well-made dramas on television right now. Yet one aspect of the show causes massive complaints on the parts of many fans; travel times. Despite taking place in real-time, many of the show's characters seem to have superhuman abilities in getting from one location to another. A ten-minute drive across L.A. during rush hour simply doesn't happen in real life. However, the show's creators must ask for the suspension of that disbelief for the show's sake. Why? It simply makes the story better. There would be nothing more boring than to have several hours of the show dedicated to characters driving from one location ot another. Would you really want to see a guy driving for an hour straight? Maybe pickin his nose, or listening to the radio; generally doing nothing. No, of course not! So the realism of driving times is sacrificed to make the story better.

What a crap analogy. Of course not sitting around in a car for hours makes for a better story. The GAR being smaller than many national armies during WW2 does not.

That is why the troop strength problem should not be one. Having a logical error there makes the story better. It's more entertaining. Would you rather hear that the GAR and the Separatists were evenly matched, or that the GAR was winning a war despite being overly outmatched in terms of numbers?

How's about the Republic winning despite being outnumbered 100 to 1? Is that not wankishly heroic enough for you?

What kills me, KILLS me, is that the line all this comes from is pretty obviously just written to sound good. "We have two hundred thousand units ready, with a million more well on the way." It sounds good. It rolls off the tongue. It's alliterative. And it's intentionally ambiguous, referring to "units." Only a MORON could think they were referring to total troop strength. In fact, if someone tried hard enough, I'm sure they could freeze-frame the films and comb the novels and come up with more than 1.2 million canonical, individual clone troopers! After all, you have a whole ton of them getting killed in Clone Wars and the novels, and it's not like they can die more than once. Grievous killed a massive amount of them with a bioweapon. Hell, we have clone gunners on Star Destroyers, assuming the one we see isn't ONE exception out of HUNDREDS of visible Star Destroyers over Coruscant alone. There are gigantic ground battles going on several different planets at once in Episode III at the very, very least.

Anyone figured out how many Acclamators or Venators 1.2 million would even fill up? I'd bet it's a pretty small number. It's not as if we see any non-clone Republic ground troops. How could 1.2 million men even be noiced by the Confederacy?

Anguirus wrote:What kills me, KILLS me, is that the line all this comes from is pretty obviously just written to sound good. "We have two hundred thousand units ready, with a million more well on the way." It sounds good. It rolls off the tongue. It's alliterative. And it's intentionally ambiguous, referring to "units." Only a MORON could think they were referring to total troop strength. In fact, if someone tried hard enough, I'm sure they could freeze-frame the films and comb the novels and come up with more than 1.2 million canonical, individual clone troopers!

It's already been done.

Thank the good Doc.

Anyone figured out how many Acclamators or Venators 1.2 million would even fill up? I'd bet it's a pretty small number. It's not as if we see any non-clone Republic ground troops. How could 1.2 million men even be noiced by the Confederacy?

Less than 100.

It were around 183 for three million clones.

Wait a moment, someone dig out the HolonetNews-article about the GR ordering thousand Acclamators ...

Jesus Chist!

JackBauer wrote:

Ackbar wrote: The Ewoks had suprise, preperation, and a stolen AT-ST on their side (and they still sustained very heavy casualties if I recall correctly from the novelization.)

And your point was that the Clone armies sustained heavy casualties as well, right? No difference there.

Hey, dipshit, the EWOKS WERE NOT OUTNUMBERED BILLIONS TO ONE.

Hey, dipshit, the EWOKS WERE NOT OUTNUMBERED BILLIONS TO ONE.

Dense as hypermatter, isn't he?

Arguing with these people is eerily similar to debating with Fundies.

Wow, thank you Saxton! (And MasterofOssus.) How'd I miss that on the SWTC?

It's good that logical but lazy fans like me have support.

Don't we have a large community of current and ex-military grunts? A few words from someone with actual military experience would give more credence to the pro-tech arguments.

Regarding the Labyrinth of Evil quote that Coruscant was a military state, current military doctrine dictates that a peace keeping force should have a 1:50 ratio, in regards to the number of soldiers to the number of occupants in a peace keeping operation. If we give a very, very generous number of 1:1000 and assume the rest of the work is filled in by droids and automation and assume that the population of Coruscant is a perfect 1 trillion (1 000 000 000 000), we come up with a number of 1 billion (1 000 000 000). Given all of these very conservative estimates and the fact that its a peace keeping number (which contradicts the "military state" quote), that alone right there destroys any pro-3 million arguments.

Therefore, the number of clones must be exponentially greater if the Republic is to maintain a clear presence on Coruscant, maintain a war on multiple fronts (including sieges and long drawn out ground campaigns), maintain support troops (I believe that only 1 in 4 soldiers are actual combat personnel, given the statistics from WW2), maintain occupational forces on purse worlds, maintain their navy, and maintain reserves. Keep in mind, also, that the number of clones in the galaxy must be sufficiently large for them to be a recognized symbol of the Republic and for them to have made even a marginal impact on the war, if local systems militias provided a good portion of their own defense. Any number which is not greater than 1 billion is just so logically stupid that it negates itself.

Given these factors, a real number for the Grand Army of the Republic must range in the hundreds of billions, even trillions, and even these loose numbers are conservative still.

I forgot to mention....

To all of the "its only a myth!" sayers, there is a reason why Star Wars is labeled as science fiction. There must be a sense of believability. If we keep this "believability" constant, we can analyze it and rationalize it using the scientific method.

Yup, Star Wars fans have now surpassed VS Trekkies in their undaunted attempts to dumb down Star Wars. It almost makes one want to accept that cool glass of Koolaide from Darkstar and embrace his canon policy.

Almost.

And imagine... if Lucas dropped ONE meaningless line from AOTC, none of the stupidity would ever emerge.

General_Soontir_Fel wrote:And imagine... if Lucas dropped ONE meaningless line from AOTC, none of the stupidity would ever emerge.

You're talking about Kamino's Prime Minister's line concerning "hundred thousand units and million units on their way" or something like that? It refers to units, which is not the same thing as invidual soldiers. Unit != trooper.

Funny, really, but when I saw AotC I didn't much pay attention to that line. Then when people started to yell about it being one million troopers or some such I at first had the belief that it was produced by that single city where Obi-Wan visited, not counting the other cities on Kamino. But when people insisted that it was the entire clone production of Kamino, I called BS. Somehow Kaminoans made pretty lucrative deal with Kuat to produce all those Acclamators and vessels and I doubt they'd do it for a million and so clones. Now I just believe that unit referred to some pretty large body of soldiers - there's no sense in it otherwise, unless we use that "one city produced over a million clones and Kamino has a shit load of cities (hopefully)" theory of mine.

Lama Su was Prime Minister of Kamino, so he's probably talking about planetary production. Of units. Which are likely "armies," "legions," "corps," or at least "divisions."

And the 1 million was "well on the way," so it's not like there weren't already even MORE that would age six years or so in three years and be in play by the end of the conflict. And then there are the Spaarti clones.

If you use WWII ideaology the numbers of troops for the grand republic would be enormous. But in Star wars like today there exists force mutipliers. Advanced sensors, communications, munitions , droids to service equipment and on. All these would lower the number of support types. One flight of F-117s can do the wrok of a entire squadrons of bombers working with cap and jamming assets. just a stray thought.

jawbertsc wrote:If you use WWII ideaology the numbers of troops for the grand republic would be enormous. But in Star wars like today there exists force mutipliers. Advanced sensors, communications, munitions , droids to service equipment and on. All these would lower the number of support types. One flight of F-117s can do the wrok of a entire squadrons of bombers working with cap and jamming assets. just a stray thought.

True, but 1.2 million invidual clonetroopers is not enough to guarantee the safety of even one single planet, let alone fight a war against an interplanetary goverment large enough to threaten the Galactic Republic.

That is why the troop strength problem should not be one. Having a logical error there makes the story better. It's more entertaining.

How? These are not Jedi we're talking about. These are standard soldiers. They AREN'T superhuman.

Would you rather hear that the GAR and the Separatists were evenly matched,

The war DID go on for three years so they clearly WERE fairly even.

And this idiot doesn't seem to realize that there is an enormous difference between being outnumbered 10 to 1 and a billion to one.

or that the GAR was winning a war despite being overly outmatched in terms of numbers?

Um, isn't this one of the reasons why the LOW number of troops is stupid?

Essentially, what I am trying to say is that there's no good reason to debate the troop numbers. If it makes the saga more interesting, who cares? Hell, that's why it is a space FANTASY. If you can accept that there are beings who have superpowers and wield energy blades, why can't you accept that an army's size does not matter?

Hey dumbass, LOTR is Fantasy too. Would having the humans at Minas Tirith ass-raping the ork hordes despite being vastly outnumbered have made that book/film better?

Tiriol wrote:True, but 1.2 million invidual clonetroopers is not enough to guarantee the safety of even one single planet, let alone fight a war against an interplanetary goverment large enough to threaten the Galactic Republic.

Why do you say that? I never saw more than a few thousand droids attack at once. How many droids could be controlled at once? How many control ships did the Trade fedration have? If you get them efficiently from one fight to the next you dont need a lot of troops to defend the planet. I understood the 1.2 million figure to be a intial figure with more troops to come. 1.2 million is a lot of peeps to suddenly have to feed and find a place to put their shit all at once

jawbertsc wrote:

Tiriol wrote:True, but 1.2 million invidual clonetroopers is not enough to guarantee the safety of even one single planet, let alone fight a war against an interplanetary goverment large enough to threaten the Galactic Republic.

Why do you say that? I never saw more than a few thousand droids attack at once. How many droids could be controlled at once?

Given that the entire invasion army of Naboo was controlled by a single ship, and that many droids seem completely independent, I'd say a lot.

How many control ships did the Trade fedration have? If you get them efficiently from one fight to the next you dont need a lot of troops to defend the planet.

Except that the clones were fighting on multiple planets simultaneously, for instance on Dantooine and Muunilist and Mon Calamari, and during the RotS montage.

I understood the 1.2 million figure to be a intial figure with more troops to come. 1.2 million is a lot of peeps to suddenly have to feed and find a place to put their shit all at once

Not really in an economy as large as the Galactic Republic's. There were massively more refugees during the YV crisis, for example, and it didn't matter too much.

jawbertsc wrote:

Tiriol wrote:True, but 1.2 million invidual clonetroopers is not enough to guarantee the safety of even one single planet, let alone fight a war against an interplanetary goverment large enough to threaten the Galactic Republic.

Why do you say that? I never saw more than a few thousand droids attack at once. How many droids could be controlled at once? How many control ships did the Trade fedration have? If you get them efficiently from one fight to the next you dont need a lot of troops to defend the planet. I understood the 1.2 million figure to be a intial figure with more troops to come. 1.2 million is a lot of peeps to suddenly have to feed and find a place to put their shit all at once

And this is a display of the ignorance needed to think 1.2 million troops is needed for a war that spans more then a single planet.

And if you want a hint moron, both armies are similar levels of tech, so please tell us how exactly 1.2 million has an advantage against a force that is magnitudes of order greater from Genosis alone, let alone what we saw the Trade Federation assemble?

How is it more entertaining for there to be less clonetroopers than the military of a single planet? I'm forced to agree with Anguirus, although I would say that "billions of units ready, trillions on the way" would sound better. It seems to be an attempt to make the numbers smaller so the average person can relate to these numbers. For example, who really knows how much 100 billion soldiers is anyway? But one hundred thousand, wow that sounds like the amount of soldiers in Iraq. What's irksome is that even the most retarded person can understand that in the context of a galactic war, one million, even one billion soldiers is too little, given the "ten thousand star systems" comment by Dooku.

Did these people even watch Star Wars and see clonetroopers falling like flies? 100 to 1, even 5 to 1 is a stretch considering what we see on screen. Are they following current events at all and realizing that when a military person says you need X number of troops to wage a war, you'd better believe him or you'll have a disaser on your hands? Do they even realize that it's a galactic war and the numbers involved must represent significant portions of the population for the war to even come up on the radar screen of "ten thousand star systems" Dooku mentioned who joined the Separatists?

Brian

Master of Ossus wrote:...It's already been done.

Thank the good Doc....

This is off topic but does anyone know an e-mail address at which I can contact Dr. Saxton.

In visiting the above link, I found myself also visiting Dr. Saxton's homepage - discovering in the process the rather interesting fact that he is currently based at the MSSL of University College London.

In the job that I undertake for UCL, I will find myself at MSSL next Wednesday and I want to ask him if I could meet him for a few minutes while I am there.