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I was curious. It has been stated that the Jedi mind trick borders on using the Dark Side. (in the Grey area) Which is why it tends to work to varying degrees. Mind control is said to be the Dark side version of the mind trick. I was curious as to where this came from?? (Books/Comics, Games, etc.)

I believe games honestly. I mean in the movies, who do we see using the mind trick more often? The Jedi. We see the Sith using physical persuasions more often, in the OT, and we can surmise that likely Palpsis using a mind trick to be more persuasive to Anakin, but that is iffy at best.

I would agree with that.

Empire Strikes Back wrote:Yoda: Run! Yes. A Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger...fear...aggression.

Empire Strikes Back wrote:Yoda: You will know. When you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

The Jedi Mind Trick does seem to be in a gray area. Its not a very passive skill; the Jedi is using the force to actively persuade / trick someone into believing their suggestion (Obi-wan and guy selling death sticks/ Obi-wan and the Tatooine troopers), or notice something that is not there (Obi-wan and the Death Star Troopers).

It fundamentally relies on deception, a trait that I think is more closely associated with the dark side than light side. But then again, perhaps it could be used as a preemptive defense move in that the Jedi could trick an opponent into overlooking something that might escalate into a confrontation and fight (e.g - Obi-wan and the troopers looking for the droids; without the trick, I could see that situation easily escalating, perhaps to the point in which Obi-wan would have to kill the troopers.)

I think it would depend on the situation. I do not remember any examples from the movies involving dark side mind control. I agree with Ghost Rider; the distinction probably comes from the games starting with the Jedi Knight first person shooter series.

Yeah Now I remember that aspect coming from Jedi Knight 2. But The whole Dark Side Mind Control cocept I do recall a bit of it coming from Zahn Trilogy when Joruus C'Boath has someone completely under his control. (he died) But I think it was described as a tactic he used.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI wrote:Yeah Now I remember that aspect coming from Jedi Knight 2. But The whole Dark Side Mind Control cocept I do recall a bit of it coming from Zahn Trilogy when Joruus C'Boath has someone completely under his control. (he died) But I think it was described as a tactic he used.

I got the impression that C'baoth's trick wasn't so much the Mind Trick as essentially simply taking over a person's mind; it does have some Mind Trick elements to it, true, but he was basically invading their minds, taking over their psyche, and controlling their bodies through that in order to make them almost literally his puppets.

I don't think the Jedi have any problem with lying to or coersing people. Obi Wan an Gui Gon both use desception. If the Clone Wars cartoon is taken into account, Yoda does as well.

Mark S wrote:I don't think the Jedi have any problem with lying to or coersing people. Obi Wan an Gui Gon both use desception. If the Clone Wars cartoon is taken into account, Yoda does as well.

To meet some higher end at least. The Jedi seem to consider themselves above the law when they feel it is for the greater good (for instance, Anakin steals a Senator's hovercar without a second thought to catch Zam.) However, I doubt you could get away with coercing someone simply to give you money, or just to screw with your mind (the KOTOR games suggest this "difference by intent".)

Noble Ire wrote:

Mark S wrote:I don't think the Jedi have any problem with lying to or coersing people. Obi Wan an Gui Gon both use desception. If the Clone Wars cartoon is taken into account, Yoda does as well.

To meet some higher end at least. The Jedi seem to consider themselves above the law when they feel it is for the greater good (for instance, Anakin steals a Senator's hovercar without a second thought to catch Zam.) However, I doubt you could get away with coercing someone simply to give you money, or just to screw with your mind (the KOTOR games suggest this "difference by intent".)

RL police often do the same. Its called comandeering. If a vehicle is deemed needed now a policeman can borrow the nearest car of his choising. Now this does have limits but it does seem a likely use of Police Powers the Jedi have. Did they compensate the senator for the damage to the hovor car?

Did they compensate the senator for the damage to the hovor car?

If they did, they waited long enough for an another man to be charged with the crime. He was aquitted though, so it seems the Jedi came forward eventually.

I think it likely that Jedi use the Force very sparingly for persuasion unless the situation has run out of other options, and then only for a greater cause which may save lives.

Take a look at Qui-Gon for instance. Before trying a mind trick on Watto, he offered him 20,000 Republic credits. I can picture a Sith Lord in his position doing one of two things: pulling out a saber or using the mind trick at first.

Also, every time a Jedi uses the mind trick power, it is usually to help someone's life. Qui-Gon persuaded Boss Nas to give him a speeder to warn the Naboo. Obi-Wan tricked the Mos Eisley stormtroopers to let them pass the droids through. Luke mind-tricked Jabba to save Han Solo's life. Yet Qui-Gon would not mind-trick Boss Nas later in TPM to send his warriors to their deaths. On the opposite, we see the Sith using this power in another dimension, to further their own ambitions. This is what Darth Sidious did to Jar-Jar, according to the AOTC commentary.

As for Joruus C'Baoth, he seems to be more of the exception than the rule for dark siders. His persuasion goes far deeper than many of the strongest Force users ever known. This isn't surprising since some Jedi are more skilled in certain areas than other Jedi are.

Elheru Aran wrote:

THEHOOLIGANJEDI wrote:Yeah Now I remember that aspect coming from Jedi Knight 2. But The whole Dark Side Mind Control cocept I do recall a bit of it coming from Zahn Trilogy when Joruus C'Boath has someone completely under his control. (he died) But I think it was described as a tactic he used.

I got the impression that C'baoth's trick wasn't so much the Mind Trick as essentially simply taking over a person's mind; it does have some Mind Trick elements to it, true, but he was basically invading their minds, taking over their psyche, and controlling their bodies through that in order to make them almost literally his puppets.

I didn't say it was a mind Trick. I specifically stated that it was Mind Control.