I personally have a theory that there are two different types of "dark jedi"- there are the ex-Jedi and the Sith.
The ex-Jedi (for want of a better term) are either former jedi who have lost control(Kueller, Joruus C'baoth), or people who try to be Sith, but don't quite know how(Jerec, Desann).
The Sith are the patient, powerful government-topplers we've all come to know and love(Sidious, Maul, Tyrannus, Vader.).
The main difference is the level of control used by the DJ: The Sith use their anger to control the dark side, whilst the ex-Jedi are controlled by their anger, frequently making hasty, emotion-based moves that are eventually their downfall.
P.S. If this subject has already been brought up, then please nuke it. I would have done a more detailed search, but the 242 topics that mention "Dark Jedi" put me off.
So far we haven't seen any canon examples of pure "Dark Jedi."
Vader, and Dooku are former Jedi who turn to the Dark Side of the Force (hence "Dark Jedi") but have become Sith.
Maul and Palpatine, as far as we know, were never Jedi, so they are pure Sith.
I suppose it would be possible to become a Dark Jedi, but not a Sith. To be a Sith you'd have to either join Palpy's organization (of two) or else subscribe to the teachings of the Sith (which is like its own religion, in which they advocate using aggressive feelings for power and domination, as opposed to the Jedi religion, which espouses public service and emotional restraint for justice).
Then, it would theoretically be possible to have Force sensitives, even Force users, who are not Jedi OR Sith (Leia would be the only canon example that could count, although its implied she's a new Jedi, by virtue of being connected with Luke and his training).
And yes, while a Jedi would already have learned how to use the Force, being a pure Sith would be more ideal because he wouldn't have to "unlearn" all of his Jedi indoctrination.
We've never seen a Sith go back to the Jedi way (unless you count Vader's last moments), but I think the implication is that its far easier to go from Jedi-->Sith, than the other way around.
It would be interesting in the EU if there was a pure Sith, you became a Jedi, or embraced the "Light Side" ie: a "Light Sith" heh
Kurgan wrote:So far we haven't seen any canon examples of pure "Dark Jedi."
According to canon, Dark Jedi are, by default, all Dark-side users. I'm merely pointing out that Palpatine and co. Use their anger, whilst the self-proclaimed Dark Jedi of the post-Endor period are not in control of their abilities. The exeptions are those who don't have enough force ability to be either type. (eg. the "Empire Reborn" force users.)
Kurgan wrote:Vader, and Dooku are former Jedi who turn to the Dark Side of the Force (hence "Dark Jedi") but have become Sith.
Hence they are Sith.
Kurgan wrote:Maul and Palpatine, as far as we know, were never Jedi, so they are pure Sith.
The Sith are an organisation. Using your logic, anyone who was never a Jedi but was a dark sider automatically becomes a Sith.
Kurgan wrote:I suppose it would be possible to become a Dark Jedi, but not a Sith. To be a Sith you'd have to either join Palpy's organization (of two) or else subscribe to the teachings of the Sith (which is like its own religion, in which they advocate using aggressive feelings for power and domination, as opposed to the Jedi religion, which espouses public service and emotional restraint for justice).
That's what I'm saying.
Kurgan wrote:Then, it would theoretically be possible to have Force sensitives, even Force users, who are not Jedi OR Sith (Leia would be the only canon example that could count, although its implied she's a new Jedi, by virtue of being connected with Luke and his training).
Methinks I'm not being clear enough, because that's exactly what I'm saying.
And yes, while a Jedi would already have learned how to use the Force, being a pure Sith would be more ideal because he wouldn't have to "unlearn" all of his Jedi indoctrination.
Not neccessarily. A fallen holy warrior is the most terrifying foe. He knows all your tactics, all your ideals, and can use them against you. His Zeal may be greater.
ph3@r the k3oot3 0n3z
I thought this was a capture the b33r mod?!
I think of it this way. "Dark Jedi" is just an informal term for any dark side force user, while a Sith is a member of the Sith Order. Hence, all Sith are Dark Jedi but not all Dark Jedi are Sith.
I tend to feel that the EU's explanations of Sith and Dark Jedi are a bit more clear.
The orignal Sith were a race that the casted-out Dark Jedi found in the unexplored regions. (the Great Schism) The two cultures merged, forming the Sith that we are more familiar with. I'll drop in some material that I've come across while doing some online SW Rping. The information contained is provided by the Eu's Golden Age of the Sith comics.
"Although forbidden to do so, a few individuals chose to secretly study the Dark Side of the Force; Studying the magics of anger and chaos. Their numbers grew until the inevitable confrontation between the Light and the Dark. This came to be known as the Great Schism; Jedi against Jedi, brother against brother. The Dark Jedi, finally defeated after a century of bloodshed, took their battered ships into exile, crossing the galaxy into the unknown. There the vanquished Dark Jedi found a primitive civilization, a new people to dominate, the Sith. With unlimited resources and willing slaves, the Jedi exiles forged the Sith civilization into a powerful Empire.
After many centuries the Sith Empire grew to a vast, rich realm spanning several star systems. This was the Golden Age of the Sith. The Empire was led by many Sith Lords and one supreme ruler, the Dark Lord of the Sith. This title was passed from one generation to the next, with only one Dark Lord at a time. Although little is known of the first several Dark Lords, 5,200 years ago Marka Ragnos defeated Simus for the title and ruled during the pinnacle of the Golden Age.The Sith Lords built huge stone temples to house the remains of their Dark Lords, and used their magic to create creatures of unspeakable horror to guard the tombs. The Sith Lords crafted many things on the backs of the Sith people, many architectural wonders. The Sith Lords also created many artifacts in this time, items infused with their malevolent Sith power. Some enhanced the wielders power in the Dark Side, others were made to focus Sith energy into a certain effect. The Sith people and the Sith Lords intermarried, and some of pure Sith blood gained the status of Sith Lord.
Two hundred years later, at the funeral ceremony of Marka Ragnos, the title of Dark Lord was once again in dispute. This time it was between Naga Sadow and his arch rival Ludo Kresh. Sadow was part of the elite priesthood of pure Sith blood and said that the Sith had grown too complacent, and that they should expand their empire and conquer new territory. Content with the current glory of the Sith Empire, Kresh vehemently opposed Sadow and accused him of practicing forbidden magic. The confrontation escalated into a duel, but the ghost of Marka Ragnos intervened; the shade told the Sith Lords to choose their fights wisely and be weary of the coming times. Naga Sadow and Ludo Kresh agreed on a temporary truce, but were interrupted by the arrival of Gav and Jori Daragon, hapless hyperspace explorers who showed up in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Mistaken as spies, Gav and Jori Daragon were taken prisoner by the Sith. The Sith Lords convened to discuss Gav and Jori's fate. Ludo Kresh argued that they were precursors to an invasion and should be killed imediately; Naga Sadow belived they could lead the Sith to the Republic, for their own invasion. Later, Sadow staged a jail-break to look like the Republic had arrived and attacked the prison. Outraged, the Sith Lords demanded swift action and elected Naga Sadow Dark Lord of the Sith. Ludo Kresh openly opposed this and refused to accept Sadow as the next Dark Lord. With Gav and Jori hidden away in his fortress, Sadow staged another attack to retrieve their impounded ship and again made it look like the Republic did it. But Ludo Kresh found the evidence that Sadow had intentionally left that implicated him. Fearing that Sadow's treasonous actions would lead to the fall of the Sith Empire, Kresh attacked Sadow's fortress. However, Kresh had attacked a decoy fortress and waltzed right into Sadow's trap, barely escaping with his life. But during the attack, Sadow had tricked Jori into escaping and fleeing back to the Republic for help. Unbeknownst to her, Sadow had place a tracking device on her ship that would lead the Sith right to the Republic. While Sadow was gathering the Sith forces for the invasion of the Republic, Kresh mounted another attack, this time on Sadow's real fortress. But Sadow destroyed Kresh's ship by remotely activating it's self destruct mechanism. Following the tracking device, the Sith fleet headed for the Republic.
Without warning, the Sith invasion force launched a multi-pronged attack that included Koros Major and Kirrek in the Empress Teta system and Coruscant, capital of the Galactic Republic. Unprepared for an invasion, most of the Republic struggled to withstand the onslought of the Sith forces. The only one who heeded Jori Daragon's warning of a Sith invasion was the Empress Teta. Ready for the invasion, her imense forces were nearly all that stood between the Sith and control of the Republic. During his captivity, Gav had been tutored by Naga Sadow in the ways of the Dark Side. At Sadow's request Gav had reluctantly accepted command of the Sith invasion force. But now, seeing all the death and destrucion, Gav had a change of heart. Confronting Sadow at Primus Gould, Gav disabled Sadow's meditation sphere. Without Naga Sadow using his Sith powers to control his armies, the tide began turning and the Sith forces were pushsed back. Regrouping his forces at Primus Gould, Sadow drew the Republic forces there for a trap that resulted in the supernova of Primus Gould, an already unstable star. Gav warned the Republic forces and allowed them to escape, but was himself doomed to die aboard the damaged meditation sphere as the star went supernova. Fleeing back to Sith territory, Sadow's fleet was met by Ludo Kresh, who had somehow managed to survive their last confrontation. While Sadow was away invading the Republic, Kresh had rallied the forces that were left behind in Sith territory and now led them against Sadow's already battered fleet. But Naga Sadow managed to defeat Ludo Kresh once again by ordering a damaged capital ship to ram Kresh's flagship, finally killing Ludo Kresh. With not a moment to rest, Sadow was imediately assailed by the Republic fleet that had followed him. In a last ditch effort, Sadow fled in his one remaining battleship between two binary stars; Using powerful Sith magic, Sadow caused huge solar flares to explode between the stars, destroying his persuers and masking his escape. With his fleet destroyed and the Sith Empire in ruins Naga Sadow fled to an isolated star system called Yavin. There on the fourth planet of the Yavin System he established a new base. Sadow commanded his loyal Sith followers to build great Sith temples. For over a hundred years he ruled as Dark Lord over the sole remaining outpost of the Sith Empire.
Over the next millennia the Sith Lords all died out, the Sith civilization on Yavin 4 fell into disrepair, and the remaining Sith people were mutated by Naga Sadow's magic into primitive, beast-like creatures that would guard the temples forever. But in that time, almost six hundred years after Sadow's arrival on Yavin 4, A Sith Lord by the name of Freedon Nadd couldn't wait to become Dark Lord of the Sith. Not wanting to challenge the reigning Dark Lord, Nadd left to start his own Empire. His search led him to the backwater planet of Onderon, bringing with him the dark power of the Sith. For centuries after his death, the ruling family of Onderon was tainted by Sith magic.
Four Thousand years before the Galactic Civil War, three Jedi knights were dispatched to Onderon to put an end to the Beast Wars that had been raging for fifty years. The Jedi were successful and brought peace to Onderon, but discovered that Queen Amanoa had been influenced by the ghost of the dead Sith Lord.
Shortly following the end of the Beast Wars, loyalists to Freedon Nadd rebeled and threatened to retake Onderon in the name of the Sith Lord. Nadd's reign of darkness was brought to an end when the Jedi interceeded and quelled the Freedon Nadd uprising. His sarcophagus was eventually moved to Dxun, removing the remaining source of Nadd's power from Onderon.
Four millennia before the Rebel base on Yavin 4, the Sith Empire would be reborn at the hands of Exar Kun... "
So, in order to be classified as a Sith, you would have to be in the position to have their specific teachings. IE, Palpatine teaching Maul and Dooku, or a Sith Holocron, Sith tomes/texts, etc. To be a Dark Jedi, you merely have to have gone over to the Darkside of the Force.
"And as I promised, I said I would read from the bible..." "...And if we could turn our bible to Pslams..."Happy shall he be that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." (Pslams 137:9) So let me ask you a question? Who is the worst influence, God or Marilyn Manson?" "God!" "And if that's not the best fucking example, God HIMSELF killed his own MOTHER FUCKING SON!"-Marilyn Manson
"Don't fuck with a Jedi Master, son..." -M.H in J.A.S.B.S.B
Achieved ultimate Doom (post 666) on Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:38 pm
Pcm979, I actually wasn't trying to argue against you, hope you didn't get that impression!
So far we haven't seen any canon examples of pure "Dark Jedi."
According to canon, Dark Jedi are, by default, all Dark-side users.
That I disagree with, because Maul was never a Jedi Knight, neither was Palpatine. They were never members of the Jedi Order. Even in the Expanded Universe we have people using the Dark Side who aren't called "Dark Jedi" or "Sith." That's all I was saying.
I'm merely pointing out that Palpatine and co. Use their anger, whilst the self-proclaimed Dark Jedi of the post-Endor period are not in control of their abilities. The exeptions are those who don't have enough force ability to be either type. (eg. the "Empire Reborn" force users.)
Sure, you could argue that. So you're defining "Dark Jedi" as any Dark Side user, and "Sith" as anybody who's in control of it, right? I was just defining them as members of organizations.
Vader, and Dooku are former Jedi who turn to the Dark Side of the Force (hence "Dark Jedi") but have become Sith.
Hence they are Sith.
Yes.
The Sith are an organisation. Using your logic, anyone who was never a Jedi but was a dark sider automatically becomes a Sith.
No. In the canon films, we have not see anybody who uses the Dark Side of the Force who is not a Dark Jedi or a Sith. In the Expanded Universe (the quasi-canon) there are some Dark Jedi who are not Sith, and some Dark Side users who are not Sith or Dark Jedi.
I see the Dark Jedi as just any Jedi who turns to the Dark Side, and the Sith as any member of Palpatine's secret order.
That's what I'm saying.
Okay, sorry if my comments were confusing. ; p
Methinks I'm not being clear enough, because that's exactly what I'm saying.
I didn't disagree with your opening post, I was just commenting on it with my own ideas. ; )
Kurgan wrote:Pcm979, I actually wasn't trying to argue against you, hope you didn't get that impression!
Okeydoke.
Kurgan wrote:
So far we haven't seen any canon examples of pure "Dark Jedi."
According to canon, Dark Jedi are, by default, all Dark-side users.
That I disagree with, because Maul was never a Jedi Knight, neither was Palpatine. They were never members of the Jedi Order. Even in the Expanded Universe we have people using the Dark Side who aren't called "Dark Jedi" or "Sith." That's all I was saying.
I was under the impression that "Dark Jedi" was a catchall phrase meaning darksider, because in the Star Wars universe the Jedi are the yardstick by which all force users are measured by. (sort of like saying PC for all computers, despite the fact that PC really only means Microsoft computers.)
Kurgan wrote:
I'm merely pointing out that Palpatine and co. Use their anger, whilst the self-proclaimed Dark Jedi of the post-Endor period are not in control of their abilities. The exeptions are those who don't have enough force ability to be either type. (eg. the "Empire Reborn" force users.)
Sure, you could argue that. So you're defining "Dark Jedi" as any Dark Side user, and "Sith" as anybody who's in control of it, right? I was just defining them as members of organizations.
I'm defining "Dark Jedi" as all dark side users, and "Sith" as members of Palpy's organisation. A proper member too, not just someone who skim-read the Sith manual and then charged headfirst at the NR.
Kurgan wrote:
Vader, and Dooku are former Jedi who turn to the Dark Side of the Force (hence "Dark Jedi") but have become Sith.
Hence they are Sith.
Yes.
Yay!
Kurgan wrote:
The Sith are an organisation. Using your logic, anyone who was never a Jedi but was a dark sider automatically becomes a Sith.
No. In the canon films, we have not see anybody who uses the Dark Side of the Force who is not a Dark Jedi or a Sith. In the Expanded Universe (the quasi-canon) there are some Dark Jedi who are not Sith, and some Dark Side users who are not Sith or Dark Jedi.
I see the Dark Jedi as just any Jedi who turns to the Dark Side, and the Sith as any member of Palpatine's secret order.
Remember that if you term the Canon as excluding the EU then the term "Dark Jedi" doesn't exist.
Kurgan wrote:
That's what I'm saying.
Okay, sorry if my comments were confusing. ; p
'Sokay.
Kurgan wrote:
Methinks I'm not being clear enough, because that's exactly what I'm saying.
I didn't disagree with your opening post, I was just commenting on it with my own ideas. ; )
Okay. I hope this post clears up any misconceptions I have created.
Oh, and:
Lord_Xerxes: Thanks.
IG-88E: Not all Dark Jedi follow the teachings of the Sith, therefore they aren't.
Ghost Rider: Who (and what) are you replying to?
Any ex-Jedi or simple persons who has affinity to use the force and been twisted or taught to use the dark side of the force by a Sith Master will be Sith Lord. (Darth Vader or Darth Maul)
Other ex-Jedis who sought for personal gain and power but lacks the control of a Sith Master will be Dark Jedis.
They "turn" themselves by their own acts. (Kueller)
Boba Fett wrote:Any ex-Jedi or simple persons who has affinity to use the force and been twisted or taught to use the dark side of the force by a Sith Master will be Sith Lord. (Darth Vader or Darth Maul)
Other ex-Jedis who sought for personal gain and power but lacks the control of a Sith Master will be Dark Jedis.
They "turn" themselves by their own acts. (Kueller)
Yes, but what about force potentials who weren't trained by the Jedi or by the Sith but turn bad anyway?
Like Dathomirian witches (not Sith neither Dark Jedi but uses the power of the dark side)
Like Mystrils (I don't know a lot about them but they're assassins with limited force ability and since they're assassins they slip to the dark side sooner or later)
Mara Jade (Simple the Hand of the Emperor) No Sith title
Maybe because since the old bloodbath between the Siths there can be only one master and one apprentice for easier control.
Master Sidious/"Apprentice" Lord Vader. Mara Jade wasn't Dark Jedi either but used the dark side powers.
...and there were other "Hands" as well.
Boba Fett wrote:Any ex-Jedi or simple persons who has affinity to use the force and been twisted or taught to use the dark side of the force by a Sith Master will be Sith Lord. (Darth Vader or Darth Maul)
Other ex-Jedis who sought for personal gain and power but lacks the control of a Sith Master will be Dark Jedis.
They "turn" themselves by their own acts. (Kueller)
Yes, but what about force potentials who weren't trained by the Jedi or by the Sith but turn bad anyway?
Boba Fett wrote:Any ex-Jedi or simple persons who has affinity to use the force and been twisted or taught to use the dark side of the force by a Sith Master will be Sith Lord. (Darth Vader or Darth Maul)
Other ex-Jedis who sought for personal gain and power but lacks the control of a Sith Master will be Dark Jedis.
They "turn" themselves by their own acts. (Kueller)
Yes, but what about force potentials who weren't trained by the Jedi or by the Sith but turn bad anyway?
Those are more job titles. (well, apart from the witches of course.)
Anyway, I was thinking more along the line of:
Stupidoverconfidentnitwitswhothinktheyknoweverythingbutmakeafatalmiscalculationoroversightthatiseventuallytheirdoom...
The EU did pretty much assume that Force use and lightsabers went hand and hand, and hence the term "Dark Jedi" did pretty much align itself with any dark side force user (there are of course exceptions, like the Sith witches in Courtship of Princess Leia, and the various magicians and not-quite-jedi force users in the Dark Empire and Tales of the Jedi comics).
I agree, the term "Dark Jedi" is only mentioned in the EU. Then again, the term "Sith" was never mentioned in the original films either (but it was mentioned in the canonical film novelisations). It wasn't until TPM that we actually had the Sith mentioned and it was defined who they were (more or less).
So in that murky, pre-Phantom Menace (circa 1999) time, the Sith were more mysterious, and the term "Dark Jedi" get flung around a lot.
I'm just trying to make some sense of it in our (soon to be) post prequel continuity. ; )
And there is some overlap in terms.. like in TPM, Gui Gon describes Maul as being "well trained in the Jedi arts."
Of course we all know that Jedi aren't the only force users in the galaxy, but they're certainly the most prominent, and without knowledge of the Sith's continued existence, it wouldn't be surprising that he'd describe Maul (a force and saber user who attacked him) in those terms.
Yes, in the canonical novelisation of A New Hope (then titled "From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker") just not in the movie (or any part of the classic trilogy for that matter). ; )
