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As the title suggests, might Obi Wan Kenobi have had a chance against Palpatine, and Yoda was being a little arrogant again?

I wouldn't post randomly but a few things got me thinking:

1. The lightsaber fighting between Mace and Palpatine seems to be no different in terms of speed when compared with Kenobi and Anakin. In fact, in some ways Anakin and Obi Wan fight a far more intense fight. Now we know that there is a real life reason for this - Samuel L. Jackson and Ian Mcdiarmid are not as fast as Hayden Christianson and Ewan Mcgregor but I'm going on on-screen evidence for the moment.

2. It has been theorised by Darth Wong on the main site that the reason that Mace Windu was so successful against Palpatine was his aggressive fighting style. Obi Wan's fighting style has also been discribed as rather aggressive - its part of what makes him so successful against Darth Maul where Qui Gon Jinn failed and its why perhaps Dooku was able to defeat him and does so twice. I believe there might be a paper-rock-scissors type of effect to lightsaber fighting in many ways & this is part of it.

3. Obi Wan had fought more dark side than Yoda. Let's not forget that Obi Wan fought both Maul and Dooku.

4. There is the problem of Obi Wan's "raw force power" but what effect would this actually have on the duel and how underestimated is Obi Wan? In the final fight on Mustafar with Anakin Obi Wan is completely and utterly even with Anakin when they use the force on each other and there hands are up against each other for a short while. They are thrown apart with equal rigour. Yes, there is the early fight with Dooku where Obi Wan is thrown across the room but if it is true that Palpatine wanted Obi Wan out of the way then surely he could have been affecting the fight? If we assume Obi Wan and Anakin are matched in terms of pure force power (as is shown in Mustafar - indeed by which time Anakin should have gained in strength due to his conversion to the Dark Side) then why does Dooku not throw Anakin around in the same way he tosses Obi Wan to the side? I suggest that it is because Palpatine would not throw his force weight behind such an action where he does with the Obi Wan throw. Even Yoda would have been thrown across the room by 2 Sith Lords using their power against him.

Am I glorifying Obi Wan Kenobi? Have I missed something? Was Yoda's ability to get to and escape from Palpatine the more important issue? Was it more of a case of Obi Wan being more suited to confroting Anakin than Yoda? Am I making some assumptions that are flawed?

Or have I actually made a decent post in the SW forums?

Palpatine would have made mince meat out of Obi Wan. Obi Wan is no where near Anakins equal in that fight in mustafar, he back pedles the whole way through the battle. It was Anakins arrogance that defeated him. Obi Wan would have had a lot of trouble countering the lightning barrage Yoda got hit and even if he could counter that I don't think he'd have been able to defeat the flying senate pods of d00m!

Doesn't Obi-wan's style focus on a nigh-impenetrable guard? While his swordsmanship may be superior to Palpatine's, the fact is that Palpatine will be using the Force to attack Obi-wan throughout the fight. Whether it's in a full-out TK storm like against Yoda, or the Force Wall described in the AOTC novel. And Obi-wan doesn't have the advantage of knowing how Palpatine fights and thinks, unlike in his fight with Anakin.

3. Obi Wan had fought more dark side than Yoda. Let's not forget that Obi Wan fought both Maul and Dooku.

Yoda's how many hundreds of years old? Just because the Sith have been in hiding doesn't mean every dark sider in the universe is in hibernation. Is there a canon statement anywhere about how many darksiders Yoda has confronted?

I think part of the intensity of the ani-obi fight was that they were like brothers before hand, and there was so much hate in ani now.
However, there may be somthing. let us not forget youthful enerygy. obi may have had a little more trouble than yoda at throwing senate things (yoda had some trouble, I recall) but he might be able to dodge better.
however, that initial blast of lightning knocked yoda back a considerable distance- think about what it could do to a less expeirenced jedi.

I wondered why Obi-Wan and Yoda didn't both go after Sidious, then hunt down Anakin.

The Jazz Intern wrote:I think part of the intensity of the ani-obi fight was that they were like brothers before hand, and there was so much hate in ani now.
However, there may be somthing. let us not forget youthful enerygy. obi may have had a little more trouble than yoda at throwing senate things (yoda had some trouble, I recall) but he might be able to dodge better.
however, that initial blast of lightning knocked yoda back a considerable distance- think about what it could do to a less expeirenced jedi.

See I always assumed that Obi Wan would have his lightsaber out. That was the way he did his defensive stance, he was not used to the simple exchange of powers that Yoda was.

Part of the reason for suggesting this was for my thinking about the above question. Some people say Yoda went alone becaue Obi Wan would have been of no use in the fight whatsoever, but I think that's to underestimate Obi Wan and overestimate Yoda and Palpatine.

Pretty much no. Obi was the warrior (the relunctent one at that) and Palpatine was the mage-type character. It was fitting that the relunctent warrior go up against the fallen knight while the old sage (yoda) went up against the evil sorcerer. Story wise, anyway.

For the most part, Obi is the best of the best of the Jedi Knights, but he does not have the inate knoweledge of the Force that Yoda does. Yoda fails in his fight, Obi would be wasted.

Obi Wan's fighting style has also been discribed as rather aggressive

Really? I always hear him described as the defensive master.

Anyway.

You won't meet a bigger Obi fanboy than I, but I maintain that Kenobi is no match for the Emperor. He always performs well against multiple foes or in confusing situations, but one-on-one against a Dark Side duelist is his weakness. He is in no way equal to Maul as a Padawan...puts up an admirable fight, but only wins due to Maul's incredible arrogance. When they are fighting one-on-one on level ground, Maul dispatches him down the pit in seconds. When he's fighting Jinn and Kenobi both, he repeatedly dispatches the Padawan with a kick instead of taking opportunities to kill him...a gesture of outright contempt.

So he doesn't do so well against Maul, but ten years later, he's on a whole other level. Sadly, Dooku is easily able to dispatch him, both in a straight sabre duel (AotC) and rather effortlessly with the Force (RotS).

So we put Palpatine and Kenobi on opposite sides of the chamber underneath the Senate and let them loose. Palpatine has shown the ability to take out Jedi Masters in seconds with a surprise leaping attack, then easily outmaneuvers and dispatches Fisto by tying him up with Windu. Palpatine may eventually lose to Windu at swordplay, but he's easily good enough to at least hold his own against Kenobi. Maybe Kenobi would get him eventually...if it was only the sabre skill under discussion.

Unfortunately, Palpatine is the most powerful known Force user of the era. He can shock humans until their bones glow, surprise Yoda with lightning repeatedly, Force-throw objects and people even better than Dooku, and he's a fast motherfucker.

I would not bet anything on Kenobi in this fight. Nothing makes him equal to Palpatine one-on-one. Hell, if I were Yoda I wouldn't even want to double-team him, since Palpatine's great at maneuvering multiple foes into each other's way. If he overcomes Kenobi, he can use him as a distraction, a hostage, whatever. Yoda can't baby-sit Kenobi...he's got to go it alone.

Elfdart wrote:I wondered why Obi-Wan and Yoda didn't both go after Sidious, then hunt down Anakin.

Probably because there would be two outcomes:
1) They present a real overwhelming threat to Sidious- He calls in the troops and overwhelms them.

2) (Far more likely) Based on Lucas's staements and his choreographers Obi Wan is two levels below Palpatine and Yoda, would get beaten like a rag doll by lightning and would be used as a hostage by Palpatine, possibly giving P a great edge.
3) Either Palaptine or Anakin had to die and that plan gave the best shot at getting either one of them.

DEATH wrote:

Elfdart wrote:I wondered why Obi-Wan and Yoda didn't both go after Sidious, then hunt down Anakin.

Probably because there would be two outcomes:
1) They present a real overwhelming threat to Sidious- He calls in the troops and overwhelms them.

2) (Far more likely) Based on Lucas's staements and his choreographers Obi Wan is two levels below Palpatine and Yoda, would get beaten like a rag doll by lightning and would be used as a hostage by Palpatine, possibly giving P a great edge.
3) Either Palaptine or Anakin had to die and that plan gave the best shot at getting either one of them.

I think that it's more likely that

4) If both Obi-Wan and Yoda attacked Palpatine, it would take either bad writing or a deus ex machina to avoid Palpatine losing the battle...and the story NEEDS Palpatine alive for the later episodes.

Molyneux wrote:I think that it's more likely that

4) If both Obi-Wan and Yoda attacked Palpatine, it would take either bad writing or a deus ex machina to avoid Palpatine losing the battle...and the story NEEDS Palpatine alive for the later episodes.

Is Anakin escaping then a problem?

Surlethe wrote: Is Anakin escaping then a problem?

Well, short term Anakin is less of a threat since he wouldn't be able to control the senate like Palpatine did, but long term he would have become the most powerful Sith/force user in history and would have been ubeatable.

Another factor to consider is the fact that Palpatine might have given Anakin the control over the troopers or military under him when he made him his apprentice as well as granting him access to the sith lore and training holocrons, meaning that Anakin could have slunk off, trained then massacred the remaining Jedi by himself or with the clones/governors.

The problem that Obi-Wan and Yoda faced is the Sith order (like the Jedi Order) could be restored to full strenght if even 1 member survives, so they can't take then chance that either of them survives and possibly goes into hiding.

Surlethe wrote:

Molyneux wrote:I think that it's more likely that

4) If both Obi-Wan and Yoda attacked Palpatine, it would take either bad writing or a deus ex machina to avoid Palpatine losing the battle...and the story NEEDS Palpatine alive for the later episodes.

Is Anakin escaping then a problem?

In any respect Obi & Yoda might feel that Ani really needed to be removed after he slaughtered most of the jedi's at the tempel, in many ways Ani is a walking bomb they have to dismantle before he grows even more powerful and destructive.

The Guid wrote:Now we know that there is a real life reason for this - Samuel L. Jackson and Ian Mcdiarmid are not as fast as Hayden Christianson and Ewan Mcgregor

This is untrue. In the fight scenes, both Cristopher Lee and Ian McDrairmid are played by doubles who have digital replicas of the actors faces put on them. These guys are in fact, far faster (in terms of attacks, not prancing about) and superior fighters than either Hayden Christansen. For example, if you watch the fight aboard the invisible hand in slow motion, you will see that Count Dooku's movements are far more efficient and significantly faster than his opponents. There is no way that Dooku would have been defeated in that fight if it were a contest of swordsmanship - watch carefully, he stops still for no reason just before he has his hands cut off - fortunatley for story purpouses, there is a major force element to the lightsaber fighting which can skew it. It's probable that Anakin was holding his weapon in place to cut his hands off, which would explain how he then took hold of the saber so quickly, and also why Dooku didn't do the simple thing which would be sidestep and bisect Anakin at that moment. Anakin was getting inside Dooku's guard, yes, but Dooku was inside his, in a more advantagous position.

The actors who play Lords Sidious and Tyrannus during the duels are professional fencing-masters, and their experience shows. While Christansen and McGregor move faster at times, their movements are nowhere near as lethal. Hell, there's one point in the Obi-Wan vs. Anakin fight where they just wave their swords around themselves for two or three seconds. Presumably they're doing some funky force mojo, but the limitations of the actors aren't what decides how fast they're going to fight, it's a deliberate act of direction.

The best swordsmen in the film are Lords Sidious and Tyrannus, by a long way.

If you take the book as fact, then Mace Windu only won the fight by funneling the immense dark force power Palpatine was puting out through himself, both in the duel and against the force lightening. Now I think a more interesting question would be novel Obi-Wan vs. movie Palpatine. Novel Obi-Wan feats include deflecting 20 attacks a second each from a different angle from General Grevious, bending his durasteel arm, attacking the group of droids on Utopua unscathed and surviving an attack by Commander Cody from three stories of troopers, heavy weapon and artilery.

I think maybe they were afraid if they teamed up and went after just one at a time, the other Sith lord would have figured out something was wrong and gone into hiding. Again. Basically, they wanted to try to end it "once and for all"

Which, I think, is silly. They should have gone after Palpy first, since he's actually the smarter, more deceptive, and more dangerous one. Given that Padme was still living and pregnant, all they had to do was watch her until Anakin showed up.

NecronLord wrote:There is no way that Dooku would have been defeated in that fight if it were a contest of swordsmanship - watch carefully, he stops still for no reason just before he has his hands cut off - fortunatley for story purpouses, there is a major force element to the lightsaber fighting which can skew it. It's probable that Anakin was holding his weapon in place to cut his hands off, which would explain how he then took hold of the saber so quickly, and also why Dooku didn't do the simple thing which would be sidestep and bisect Anakin at that moment. Anakin was getting inside Dooku's guard, yes, but Dooku was inside his, in a more advantagous position.

You can see something similar in AotC when Anakin gets "disarmed" by Dooku -- he inexplicably holds his sword arm out, in a convenient position to get the big chop. I think that it's difficult to come up with plausible endings to sabre fights, so we end up seeing endings that are dramatic instead.

With respect to the OP, the only reason I could think of for choosing partners instead of ganging up on Sidious -- aside from Yoda's comment that Obi-Wan was not strong enough (which would imply that he would either hinder Yoda or be completely useless) -- is that the idea was to kill both Sith before they could consolidate their power. Obviously, Yoda would only be able to get to Sidious for a limited time; once the clone troopers returned from their various assignments elsewhere, the Emperor would be much, much more difficult to reach. Similarly, if Vader were to go "in the wind" (as he would, if the news reached him that Sidious had fallen), Yoda/Kenobi might have a hard time locating him before he found his own apprentice, etc.

Realistically, there was no reason to expect Kenobi to be able to defeat Vader, from what I saw, though it appeared that Yoda felt more than equal to the challenge of Sidious.

There was a question about Obi-Wan's fighting style which the ROTS: VD answers quite nicely. It states that he is a master of Ataru, which mostly focuses on deflection/defense, but his true style is Soresu, "which encourages the practitioner to place himself at the eye of the storm". It also says that to truly master Soresu you must be audacious. Nothing about having to be aggressive in either form.

My impression has always been that either Yoda overestimated his own chances, or underestimated Palpatine. He acts like he'll easily whupp some Sith when talking to Obi. He also seemed pretty contemptious toward Palps when he first goes to confront him, up until Palps unleashes that first barrage. You can see the shock and surprise on his face when he first gets hit. Then he seems to take Palps a little more seriously. When it comes to the tossing of pods you can actually, or so it seemed to me, see him starting to get a little worried. Finally when he gets tossed to the floor you see the realization that he's bitten off more than he can chew. So he wisely takes the better part of valour, and hooks up with Bail.

That was always my beleif anyway.

Lord Pounder wrote:Palpatine would have made mince meat out of Obi Wan. Obi Wan is no where near Anakins equal in that fight in mustafar, he back pedles the whole way through the battle. It was Anakins arrogance that defeated him. Obi Wan would have had a lot of trouble countering the lightning barrage Yoda got hit and even if he could counter that I don't think he'd have been able to defeat the flying senate pods of d00m!

The Obi-Wan backpeddiling thing is just the results of a diffrent fighting style. Its stated int he Insider issue with the lightsaber styles that in Ep: I Obi Uses the more agressive form IV? Qui Gon used II.
Then in Episode II-IV Obi used a form II While Anakin used close to the style Obi used in EpI (form IV? i dont have the issue on hand)

Imperial Overlord wrote:

3. Obi Wan had fought more dark side than Yoda. Let's not forget that Obi Wan fought both Maul and Dooku.

Yoda's how many hundreds of years old? Just because the Sith have been in hiding doesn't mean every dark sider in the universe is in hibernation. Is there a canon statement anywhere about how many darksiders Yoda has confronted?

It would seem that Yoda has fought no DarkSiders besides Palp and maby spared with Dooku when he was still in the Jedi Order

Yoda dies at ~900 years old (ROTJ: "At 900 years how you look" or to some extent, you know that scene where Luke says hes ready)

Ki Adi Mundi "The Sith have been extinct for over a mellenia" ~1000+ years

So there you go Yoda didnt fight any Sith besides Palpatine/Sidious

Tychu wrote:So there you go Yoda didnt fight any Sith besides Palpatine/Sidious

He didn't fight in the -war-, but he obviously had some hand or awareness of them, and conflict with them, if he made the "Master and Apprentice" line.

Tychu wrote:It would seem that Yoda has fought no DarkSiders besides Palp and maby spared with Dooku when he was still in the Jedi Order

In Tim Zahn's trilogy it explicitly states that around the time of the Clone Wars there were several Dark Jedi that arose. Yoda was supposed to have led a team personally that killed these Dark Jedi. As well as Yoda himself chasing the leader to Dagobah and killing him there. This is what was supposed to have created the dark side cave that Luke went into.

He also led a team to Dathomir when he was younger (only ~400 IIRC) to rescue a number of Jedi that crashed there from some Nighsisters. So he obviously has some experience with Dark Siders, maybe not Sith but definitely Dark Siders.

Obi-wan couldn't even take on Count Dooku, twice, remember? He got knocked out all the time. How is he going to compete with Palpatine, who is, by default, much stronger than Dooku? A fight between Obi-wan and Palpatine would have been slaughter. And a fight with Yoda & Obi-wan vs. Palaptine would not have help much anyways; again, Obi-wan couldn't stand his ground when he and Anakin were both fighting against Count Dooku. How is he supposed to be able to stand his ground if he and Yoda were fighting side by side? Obi-wan would have been more useful to go after Anakin.

Edit: spelling mistakes.