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We all know the criteria for canoninity in Wars, what is and is not a violation of that policy. My question is if a violation has ever occured? If so who, when, and with what work?

Thanks all.

Hedgehog's Roommate wrote:We all know the criteria for canoninity in Wars, what is and is not a violation of that policy. My question is if a violation has ever occured? If so who, when, and with what work?

Thanks all.

Most canon violations come from something being overruled by later sources, but I don't think thats what your refering to. I am actually unfamiliar with any real violation like that, outside of minimalism.

Noble Ire wrote:

Hedgehog's Roommate wrote:We all know the criteria for canoninity in Wars, what is and is not a violation of that policy. My question is if a violation has ever occured? If so who, when, and with what work?

Thanks all.

Most canon violations come from something being overruled by later sources, but I don't think thats what your refering to. I am actually unfamiliar with any real violation like that, outside of minimalism.

I believe he is asking if there have been contradictions in-universe, one source disagreeing with another upon the same level of canon (i.e., a book vs a book, not a computer game's cinematics vs a movie scene).

In that context, there *are* a few problems. Nothing serious, however, and as Noble Ire said, the most of it is minimalism-- EU writers depicting a galaxy -much- less powerful than shown in the movies, that kind of thing.

Hedgehog's Roommate wrote:We all know the criteria for canoninity in Wars, what is and is not a violation of that policy. My question is if a violation has ever occured? If so who, when, and with what work?

Thanks all.

The easiest ones are dimensions. 15 metre tall AT-ATs, 8km long Super Star Destroyers. Then you've got the E-Web which takes some ridiculously long amount of time to set up, when we see it set up and about to fire in seconds in the film.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

I was mostly concerned with any violations in regard to the movies, but if people want to put other types in that would be nice too.

Hedgehog's Roommate wrote:Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

I was mostly concerned with any violations in regard to the movies, but if people want to put other types in that would be nice too.

Well........ most sources now contend that Luke only carried a single pair of proton torpedoes attacking the DS. However, the ANH novelisation shows that Luke fired at least two salvoes of Proton torps in that battle. The problem is, the scene described in the ANH novelisation doesn't exist in the movie, and would be rather difficult to reconcile.

Of course, the most difficult portion of the ANH novelisation would still remain the blaster burning away the cell door.

I believe the simplest solution is that "within the highest (so to speak) canon, the movies override the novels."

Edward Yee wrote:I believe the simplest solution is that "within the highest (so to speak) canon, the movies override the novels."

Yes I know. That is not what I'm asking.

Just to clarify I want to know if anyone has any specific examples of comics, books, game dialogue,etc. that violates the movie canon in anyway.

Boba Fett's origin as stated in one of the books is crushed by EP II and III.

Deathstalker wrote:Boba Fett's origin as stated in one of the books is crushed by EP II and III.

That, of course, was reteconned (into begin the back story of one of Jango Fett's mentors whose identy Boba took on for awhile), but it was a violation nevertheless. There are several other instances where the PT went against established canon, but generally, EU authors tended to be vague enough that no really significant violation would occur.

It is not really fair to blame the earlier source for the contradiction created by the later one. This is like faulting the Young Jedi Knight and Junior Jedi Knight books for failing to mention Luke Skywalker's marriage to Mara Jade, even though they were published before Mr. Zahn wrote that particular bit of garbage. Clearer contradictions include the presence of Rancors on Dathomir in The Courtship of Princess Leia when the Rancor is described as being obviously a mutant in the novelization of Return of the Jedi, or depictions of the Princess Leia of Alderaan meeting the Grand Moff Tarkin prior to A New Hope (in the novelization Tarkin begins to introduce himself but she interrupts him by saying she knows who he is). Then there are bits in the novelizations that contradict the films, such as the description of the lightsaber in Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker or the fate of MG Maximilian Veers in the novelization of The Empire Strikes Back, but these are usually due to the novelization being written from an earlier version of the script rather than the final product; Revenge of the Sith suffers from similar problems, including the different portrayals of Darth Sidious's duels with the Jedi Masters and with Master Yoda.

On the other hand one could say that later sources shouldn't contain contradictions because they have the benefit of possessing the earlier sources. The new authors could (theoretically) check the old sources to make sure they don't make obvious mistakes.

The way it seems to go is that a new source from Lucas will contradict something, and then the retcon follows (in the EU usually). That's much easier of course when the contradiction is between say the prequels and the EU, rather than the prequels and the classic trilogy... but the EU is left with the job of explaining whatever it was that was amiss.

When it comes to C-canon, LFL seems VERY reluctant to toss out anything, preferring complicated retcons. This is due to thte rabid fans who want everything from The Glove of Darth Vader to Star Tours enshrined in canon.

This is like faulting the Young Jedi Knight and Junior Jedi Knight books for failing to mention Luke Skywalker's marriage to Mara Jade, even though they were published before Mr. Zahn wrote that particular bit of garbage.

Forgive my ignorance, but did Zahn actually write the comic in which they are married? I thought all he did was merely imply such an eventuality in VotF.

When it comes to C-canon, LFL seems VERY reluctant to toss out anything, preferring complicated retcons. This is due to thte rabid fans who want everything from The Glove of Darth Vader to Star Tours enshrined in canon.

Generally, I approve of retecons over invalidation, but it is true, the attempts of some to canonize blatantly non-canon sources is moronic (I refer more to Star Tours than the other. Glove, while being quite contradictory to most other sources, have been reteconned fairly well.)

Noble Ire wrote:Forgive my ignorance, but did Zahn actually write the comic in which they are married? I thought all he did was merely imply such an eventuality in VotF.

No, Mr. Stackpole wrote Union itself, but the idea was decidedly the misbegotten spawn of Mr. Zahn's literary autoerotism. It is generally frowned upon in fan-fiction circles to marry off a main character to one's own creation; if some random fan were to write stories like Mr. Zahn's, they would be derided for rampant oneupsmanship and shoddy characterization (to say nothing of the lunacy of Mr. Zahn's love affair with his own characters, who are supposed to be superlative in every way, surpassing even the filmic characters). Some readers liked Mara Jade better when she was named Shira Ellan Colla Brie, in "Hello, Bespin, Goodbye!"

^ Well then, I guess Zahn must be tolerated because he doesn't write fan-fiction. Just wildly popular official fiction.

About the only thing that bugs me about Zahn is his minimalism. I love his characters, for the most part, and he treats the film characters quite well IMO. (He doesnt quite nail Han, but who has?) Mara Jade isn't my favorite of his, but I can't imagine anyone else being married to Luke.

Publius wrote:It is generally frowned upon in fan-fiction circles to marry off a main character to one's own creation; if some random fan were to write stories like Mr. Zahn's, they would be derided for rampant oneupsmanship and shoddy characterization (to say nothing of the lunacy of Mr. Zahn's love affair with his own characters, who are supposed to be superlative in every way, surpassing even the filmic characters). Some readers liked Mara Jade better when she was named Shira Ellan Colla Brie, in "Hello, Bespin, Goodbye!"

You wouldn't, by any chance, post under a different alias on TFN, would you?

Anguirus wrote:^ Well then, I guess Zahn must be tolerated because he doesn't write fan-fiction. Just wildly popular official fiction.

Neither Mr. Zahn's status as a published author nor the evident success of his books renders him immune to criticism (as Mr. Anderson has so brilliantly demonstrated).

Many of the rules of thumb followed among writers of fan-fiction exist because they are simply good guidelines for avoiding shoddy work, presumptuousness, and character-based egotism. The same flaws that make poor fan-fiction will make poor official fiction. The extent to which this applies to Mr. Zahn specifically is a matter of personal interpretation, so one may make of that what one will.

You seem generally satisfied with the quality and content of Mr. Zahn's writing; this author obviously does not share your opinion, and there need be no argument over the specific merits of his work (de gustibus non disputandum est, after all). Suffice it to say that a good opinion of his characters, his characterization, and his sense of scale is not universally held.

000 wrote:You wouldn't, by any chance, post under a different alias on TFN, would you?

As General Patton once wrote, "as through a glass, and darkly the age-long strife I see, where I fought in many guises, many names – but always me." This author has written under several pseudonyms on the Jedi Council forums, but an you suspect him of being Genghis12, he has the pleasure of saying that you suspect wrongly.

Neither Mr. Zahn's status as a published author nor the evident success of his books renders him immune to criticism

Yeah, I know. I'm just teasing you because it honestly doesn't bother me.

After all, someone's OC had to marry Luke, if anyone was ever going to do so. At least it's not Callista.

Anguirus wrote:After all, someone's OC had to marry Luke, iif anyone was ever going to do so.

And why, precisely, should anyone marry him at all? With one or two (notably brief) exceptions -- of which Mara Jade is certainly not one, in this author's opinion -- , there have been precious few female matches that were not tedious, over-the-top, and forced. There is no reason that Skywalker could not remain a bachelor (Mother Rell's apparent prophecy in The Courtship of Princess Leia notwithstanding). Certainly Mr. Lucas did not feel the need to pair him with someone at the end of the filmic saga.

But this is all a digression from the main topic, no?

At any rate, yes, there have been numerous 'canon violations,' between all kinds of evidence. Novelizations have contradicted films, novels have contradicted novelizations, comics, sourcebooks, and video games have contradicted novels, and so on. Some of them are minor -- the proliferation of General Tagges or Doman Berusses, or the twofold fates of Grand Vizier Sate Pestage -- and are either fixed with a line or two in some source or regarded as so insignificant as to never be addressed at all (e.g., the 'other' General Veers, 'Colonel' Thrawn, the physical appearance of Bothans, Noghri, and smuggler chief Mazzic). Others -- the making of the Baron Fel, the life and times of Boba Fett, the earlier ranks of Grand Admiral Thrawn -- are so convoluted and byzantine that attempts to fix them with papered over 'explanations' generally manage only to make matters worse (with regard to the Lord Fel and Thrawn, this is in large part due to nearly total ignorance of military and naval rank and usage).

In such cases, the best method is to first see which source more accurately reflects the 'reality' of the films (e.g., the length overall of the Super Star Destroyer, clearly shown in the films to be many kilometers long, must conform to that evidence, regardless of what other, inferior sources contend). If neither source is 'more genuine' when measured by this standard, then one may resort to supporting evidence: which bit of the contradictory evidence is better supported by other sources? In the absence of a clear superiority of one source's account over that of another, it may come down to one's personal preference (e.g., since neither version of Mazzic's appearance is really 'better' than the other, it is more or less open to interpretation which is 'really' Mazzic).

According to Chee, there are a few instances in which the EU can override the movies:

+http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... &start=510

Mange the Swede wrote:According to Chee, there are a few instances in which the EU can override the movies:

+http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... &start=510

Question to Leland Chee wrote:I'd be interested to know what circumstances would allow the EU to overthrow the films. . .

Leland Chee wrote:Well, you've got the Boba Fett thing. Then there's stormtroopers where there's a bunch of sources released prior to Ep2 that said that they were human recruits. Hence we established that while most stormtroopers are clones, there are some that are recruits.

That's not really overriding, but adding to established movie facts.

Ugghh.

Interesting that he said most were clones and some were recruites (not the other way around).

Especially since it is only assumed by many that stormtroopers must be clones because their armor resembles that of the clonetroopers; none of the films actually state this. Mere resemblance of uniform is not a compelling argument in favor of identical origin, lest one conclude that the US Navy is in fact the militant wing of the US Postal Service.

the 'other' General Veers, 'Colonel' Thrawn, the physical appearance of Bothans, Noghri, and smuggler chief Mazzic

veeres gets cleared up in the new essential guide to characters
colonel thrawn actually makes sense with the established imperial rank system in the imperial sourcebook

the rest *shrugs* wouldn’t be the first time that a artist screws up, especially for comic books. I for one rather go for the written sources then artistic licence, otherwise there is no way to explain how some of the chars look in the comics (yellow skinned Lando by Marvel, or white skinned Lando in Dark Empire). Other little things also come to mind, like the two completely different Rand Ecliptic (X-Wing Comics (which is actually the much cooler ship design), Empire Comics), or why Gillespee's Kern’s Pride looks nothing like the Corellian Blockaderunner it is meant to be in the Thrawn Comics, also how a Marauder Frigate can be far smaller then a Xiytiar Transport (Crimson Empire) and so on....