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I was watching ROTS the other day and I had a random thought when I noticed how easily Palpatine cut apart Windu's crew: exactly how much saber-saber training do Jedi recieve?

Look at what we know about the Jedi's function prior to the Clone Wars. They act as policemen, diplomats and occasionally soldiers, but notice that they would have never had an occasion to engage in saber combat against other Jedi/Sith, merely combat versus those with blasters. If you consider that the Jedi probably haven't seen Sith for thousands of years, how much saber-saber combat could they realistically be emphasizing when training new Jedi? After all, the chances of them going up against another Jedi would have been virtually nil.

So I guess the question is, do we have anything to contradict this line of reasoning? Because near as I can tell the average Jedi should have been appallingly poor in saber-saber combat as the skill must have faded over time. It might also explain why Mace Windu fared so well against Palpatine--he might have been one of a few Jedi that still studied the old saber fighting techniques as a historical curiosity.

Yoda: Dark Rendevous seems to indicate that all padawans must be at least somewhat proficent in saber combat to complete their training. However, that may just be due to the wartime. It is possible that lightsaber skills atrophied over the milleium, but that would not explain the deaths of the masters. Kit Fisto is portrayed as being very skilled and experienced in close combat, as is Agen Kolar IIRC. It is possible though that Tiin's lightsaber skill is only minimal, as he tends to pilot rather than engage on the ground.

I would speculate that Palpatine simply used his force of will to overwhelm the masters when he attacked, and only Mace and (to a far lesser extent) Fisto were able to shake him off in time. Personally though, I like the novel's rendition of the fight better. More reasonable.

The Kernel wrote:I was watching ROTS the other day and I had a random thought when I noticed how easily Palpatine cut apart Windu's crew: exactly how much saber-saber training do Jedi recieve?

He was doing something to confuse them- in the RotS novelization Agen Kolar is described as being one of the best swordsmen of the order- notice just before Sidious skewers him- he's looking around as if he has no idea where Sidious went. Saesee Tinn was just too slow, he's about to strike when Sidious cuts him from end to end.

Vympel wrote:

The Kernel wrote:I was watching ROTS the other day and I had a random thought when I noticed how easily Palpatine cut apart Windu's crew: exactly how much saber-saber training do Jedi recieve?

He was doing something to confuse them- in the RotS novelization Agen Kolar is described as being one of the best swordsmen of the order- notice just before Sidious skewers him- he's looking around as if he has no idea where Sidious went. Saesee Tinn was just too slow, he's about to strike when Sidious cuts him from end to end.

The point is still valid though, how much saber combat would Jedi realistically possess? Probably not much.

The point is still valid though, how much saber combat would Jedi realistically possess? Probably not much.

They did have 3 years to practice though, against assorted fallen Jedi, battle droids, and blade-wielding droids/bounty hunters. Although you do have a point, almost none of them had ever fought a Sith, or a really skilled saber-wielder.

Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn and Padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi did decently when faced with Darth Maul, as did Padawan Anakin Skywalker against Darth Tyrannus.

Admittedly all the Jedi I just mentioned got their butts kicked (almost certainly for the reasons discussed in this thread), but it wasn't that bad. It's pretty clear that Sidious somehow stunned or confused them using the Force.


Anakin, as a Jedi Knight, did defeat Tyrannus eventually, but I attribute that to his raw power as the Chosen One as well as going into a rage, so I guess yeah, Jedi typically lose.

Im essence The Jedi simply train to be Jedi, whereas the Sith train to defeat the Jedi. The battles are close sometimes, and might even come down to luck (or perhaps there's no such thing, what with the will of the Force), but almost always the Sith win until the Jedi changed their ways (starting with Luke).

KOTOR includes a line of dark side powers that stun the opponent leaving them defenseless for a short period. Now while it is possible that it is purely game mechanic it is also possible what Palpatine did was the first movie use of such powers. The 3 Jedi were stunned and went down quickly while Mace managed to resist it and kept fighting.

I think the TPM novelization, the AOTC novelization (and the DK books) and some of the novels like "Dartth Maul: Shadow Hunter" all indicated that whiel there were a number of swordsman in the Jedi order (Mace Windu, Qui-Gon jinn, etc.) they weren't all trained to fight against Saber opponents (one of the things, IIRC, that distinguished Dooku's fighting style from other Jedi, IIRC the AOTC novel correctly - Jedi saber styles emphasize deflection and defense more than melee/saber fighting, or something like that.)

Moreover (and perhaps more important) it had been a LONG time since many Jedi had actually faced an opponet in lethal combat who wielded a lightsaber - and that lack of experience can be fatal.

Once war-time rolls around, you probably see some abbreviation to training times and methods - Jedi simply don't have the decades to spare to train and practice.. and that probably accounts for some eventual casualties.

As for Palpy.. I think its pretty much inevitable that his fighting style quite simply requires a more "brute force" approach than any actual swordsmanship. Like Yoda, ,he seems to need to rely heavily on Force usage to tip the odds in his favor (and because he's so frigging powerful, he can get away with it.) In the case of the three other Jedi who accompanied Mace - they may have been better swordsman, but they were vastly underpowered compared to Palpy (especially with the Dark Side Shroud.)

In training the Padewans are pitted against each other in combat. the above mentioned Dark Rendezvous mentions a tournament where the younglings where given powered down lightsabers and allowed to go at it. Plus Dooku was a Jedi and i hardly think he improved his technique so much from the time he left the Jedi untill AotC.

Couldn't Jedi train with powered down lightsabers? I mean, if it only hurts like hell when it hits then you can get something that is very similar to real saber-to-saber combat exept that the loser gets to fight again afterwards.

It's almost like the other Jedi got a burst of lag at that inconvenient moment. I can totally see that as a Jedi Academy whine moment... with Palpy being the LPB.

Adrian Laguna wrote:Couldn't Jedi train with powered down lightsabers? I mean, if it only hurts like hell when it hits then you can get something that is very similar to real saber-to-saber combat exept that the loser gets to fight again afterwards.

Of course they could, that isn't the issue. The point is that they wouldn't because they have no reason to dedicate large amounts of study time for Padawans on a technique that has almost no chance of being needed in the field. They haven't seen the Sith for generations, logix dictates that saber-saber combat would become an anachroism.

The impression I got from things I've read is that dueling went out of style. There were no others who used sabers so there was little emphasis on it, more time was spent teaching to defend against/deflect blaster bolts.

Dooku was different though. His saber was designed along lines similar to those that were popular a couple of centuries ago. Apparently this was form two's heyday, and that's the form Dooku prefers to use.

Kurgan wrote:It's almost like the other Jedi got a burst of lag at that inconvenient moment. I can totally see that as a Jedi Academy whine moment... with Palpy being the LPB.

[BMF-Windu] U R under arrest foo

[Palpatine] O rly?

[Palpatine] =|------ [JM-Kolar]

[Palpatine] =|------ [JM-Tiin]

[Palpatine] =|------ [JM-Fisto]

[JM-Kolar] WTF dude!

[JM-Tiin] OMG Lag

[JM-Fisto] u hax!

[Palpatine] hahahaha noobz LOL

[JM-Fisto] This server sux. :'(

[BMF-Windu] I kill u anyway!

[Palpatine] uh ohes!

[Jedi-Annie] OMG! stupid platforms! did i miss teh fight?

[Jedi-Annie] WTF happened?

[BMF-Windu] Palpatine is a dam hacker! help me kill him

[Jedi-Annie] Uuuhh

[Palpatine] Don't listen to him!Dood, if you help me I'll show u how 2 hack liek me

[Jedi-Annie] Ok

[BMF-Windu] Aarrrgh my hand u teamkilling fucktard!

[Palpatine] ^v^v^v^ [BMF-Windu]

[BMF-Windu] OMG U all suck so much

[Palpatine] Hahaha ultimate power bitch LOL

Darwin that made me chuckle a bit. good work.

This reminds me of....



Kudos to the guys from clan Seels who actually made the picture.

Dueling could have been maintained as a sport or exercise. It need not have vanished just because there weren't any Sith around to fight.

But who knows, maybe they just suck.