Jedi Knights as the galaxy peacekeepers?

[PainRack]

Well,we all know MW rants about the Jedi Knights.Why did Mace Windu sneak up on Count Dooku and not kill him?Why squander the element of surprise?

Well,after going through the ROE for arrests,all becomes clear.Let's revise what happened.

The Jedi Knights snuck into the arena,and stationed themselves all around the stadium.Meanwhile,big ass Windu snuck up to the grand stand where Dooku and the other leaders of the seperatists were.

Once he got up there,he brought out his lightsabre,ignited it,and held it at the throat of the only visibly armed person in the grandstand,Fett.
Soon,the various other Jedi Knights revealed their presence.Notice their scattered presence all around the arena,effectively surronding the populace inside.
"This party's over."More banter between bad villian and kick ass good guy,overwhelming enemy bad guys come.
Windu defends himself.finds himself overwhelmed,retreats by jumping off,into the arena.

Now,what is wrong with this picture?Well,if Windu was a soldier,out to win the Civil War for the Old Republic,a quick way would have been to simply just kill Count Dooku,if not the various other leaders.Even if the soldier was out to take prisoners,once the droids got up there,he would have simply killed the leaders of the resistance.So,why didn't Windu?Simple.Because the EU,and Windu himself told us why earlier."We are keepers of the peace your Excellency,not soldiers."

Imagine how the sitution would have looked,if you pictured the Jedi as a COP instead.They surrounded the place to prevent the bad guys from running away,the leader made his presence known and asks them to surrender,when they refuse,he reveals his entire force presence in an attempt to intimidate them.And he keeps trying to take prisoners.
Voila!The picture fits.

The ROE
:You are to take all reasonable steps to resolve situations without the use of force.
:IN all situations,you are to use only the MINIMUM FORCE neccesary.
:Force likely to cause serious injury or death must only be used as a last resort.

Self Defence and Defence of Others
:You may use the MINIMUM FORCE NECCESARY,up to and including lethal force,in exercising the right of self-defence and the defence of others from imminent threat of death or grevious hurt.

Graduated Response
:When you use force,you must only use the minimum force neccesary and your response must be graduated where possible.


I leave the facts for you guys to ponder

[His Divine Shadow]

I'll read it in a moment, first, long time no see, still in the army?

[His Divine Shadow]

Hmm, yeah, I concur!

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

You are making sense! BURN THE HERETIC!

[PainRack]

Well,I did tell you before.Unlike you,I am a conscript for two and a half years.Even longer if I get promoted to corporal or higher.So yes.I'm still there.

BTW,anything wrong with spacebattles?I can't seem to log on there at all.

[His Divine Shadow]

Well,I did tell you before.Unlike you,I am a conscript for two and a half years.Even longer if I get promoted to corporal or higher.So yes.I'm still there.

Yes well I forgot.

BTW,anything wrong with spacebattles?I can't seem to log on there at all.

Probably, wich URL are you using?
I hear spacebattles.com is gone or something but the forum at kier.3dfrontier.com is still there.

[David]

I've always wondered how the jedi would fill that role. The galaxy is huge and there don't seem to be enough jedi to act as peacekeepers in any degree.

[BlueExcalibur]

Makes sense.

I've always wondered how the jedi would fill that role. The galaxy is huge and there don't seem to be enough jedi to act as peacekeepers in any degree.

Well, there aren't during the separatist crisis. But other than that, I think the republic was mostly peaceful and held itself together pretty well, so more Jedi might not have been needed,

[Rob Wilson]

Imagine how the sitution would have looked,if you pictured the Jedi as a COP instead.They surrounded the place to prevent the bad guys from running away,the leader made his presence known and asks them to surrender,when they refuse,he reveals his entire force presence in an attempt to intimidate them.And he keeps trying to take prisoners.
Voila!The picture fits.

So you send only one sop to arrest an armed suspect, or a group of armed suspects? Who is this Cop? Judge Dredd?

Windu overestimated himself and underestimated the threat. If it were done by the police then don't you think it would be more likely to be 20 cops, with 2 to each prisoner, rush in and manhandle the suspects to the floor, get them cuffed and Miranda'd (for yank police) and stil having at least one man per suspect covering the whole thing with drawn weapons?

No Windu fucked up big style, and lost nearly everyone he took with him because of it.

[David]

Arrogant in true jedi style.

[Rob Wilson]

Arrogant in true jedi style.

I still think they were too arrogant, I always pictured the Jedi as acting like Chow Yun Fat's character in Crouching Tiger. Instead they are just self-righteous idiots with Lightsabres according to AOTC. Damn it, why couldn't Lucas have just let some common sense interrupt things?

[David]

Lucas putting in common sense!!!!!!!!!!!!



Are you mad?

[Rob Wilson]

Lucas putting in common sense!!!!!!!!!!!!



Are you mad?

Now that you mention it....

[Rob Wilson]

Lucas putting in common sense!!!!!!!!!!!!



Are you mad?

Mad? I'm Livid.

(oldie but a goldie)

[David]

I'm mad

























-ly in love, but not with you

[Rob Wilson]

I'm mad

-ly in love, but not with you

But everyone loves Rob... Oh wait that's Raymond. My bad.

[David]

I don't. I've never seen the show.

[BrianDavion]

keep in mind windu send according to the novel 200 jedi into the area. quite literally all they could afford.

[Robert Treder]

I think that Mr. Rack is correct in his constabulatory analogy, and that Mr. Wilson is correct in his accusation of Mr. Windu.

The Jedi do act as a sort of elite police force (there are mundane cops as well in the Republic, hence the small number of Jedi)...probably analoguous to an earthly CT team, like Half-Life's very own SEAL, GSG-9, GIGN, and SAS teams, or Clancy's Rainbow Six. The difference between these real life kick-ass cops and Star Wars's kick-ass Jedi cops? Jedi arrogance still comes into the picture even when you look at them in police terms.
They didn't act like good soldiers and lay waste to the place, and they didn't act like good cops and secure the place, as Mr. Wilson pointed out.
It is frustrating to see the Jedi act so...so stupidly, but I think if we just hang on it will all work out. Our preconceptions of the Jedi may have been totally wrong...would the badasses we envisioned really let themselves walk into the Purge? I think the Jedi are being portrayed as arrogantly foolish for a reason...they will learn their lesson come EIII...and it will be a hard one to learn. Yes, they will pay the price for their lack of vision. And then...then there will be a new hope, and they will be redeemed, and will return.

[Mr Bean]

They started out *badass prehaps

But then slacked and went arrogent and they paid for it

I agree with most everything said so far

[BlueExcalibur]

I think Yoda's comments about the Jedi being arogant is very important in the long term.(I wanted to say something like that...) He probably remebers a time when the Jedi were not like the way they are in AOTC.

[Rob Wilson]

I think Yoda's comments about the Jedi being arogant is very important in the long term.(I wanted to say something like that...) He probably remebers a time when the Jedi were not like the way they are in AOTC.

That's prety much what I want to beleive as well. I'm hoping (for the sake of my childhood memories) that the Jedi did in fact deserve their reputtions as Capable defenders of the Peace. Lets face it, the thought of just two of them turning up (and one of them a learner at that) nearly forced the Trade Federation to capitulate without even fighting or talking to them! There may well have been a time when this was a well founded fear, and the Jedi have been coasting on that rep for a few years without facing any real challenge to it. All told this messed up performance of thiers is probably there to show how far the Jedi have fallen in terms of Power and ability.

[PainRack]

Read the ROEs again.As stated,Mace Windu didn't do anything seriously wrong as he threatened Jango Fett,the only visibly armed opponent.As the remainding conspirators had demonstrated no hostile intent,shows no capability of causing jeopardy,and bearing in mind that the seperatists are classified as nothing more than political dissidents,the use of extreme force is not suitable at hand.

How would any of us here feel,if we learn that the FBI crashed the Green Party HQ,forcibly arrested their leaders and then brutally handled them?We will be screaming political oppression,if not police brutality.

So,while Windu certainly displays overconfidence and underestimating of the situation at hand{hey,there's that clouding of the Jedi judgement we see again.},his actions are defensible.

While many of us may disagree on the wisdom of such tactics,again,the PR cosquences of what will be termed brutal actions will only cause more harm to the Jedi and the Old Republic.

[Rob Wilson]

Read the ROEs again.As stated,Mace Windu didn't do anything seriously wrong as he threatened Jango Fett,the only visibly armed opponent.

Dooku had a Lightsabre plainly visible on his belt. And how would Windu know how many armed people would be on that balcony. Plus there were armed people in the crod as well that could have fired on him. He should have gone in and securd that balcony totally and then there would have been no comeback as None of the Geonosins could fire at thema nd the Droids would not have been deployed.

As the remainding conspirators had demonstrated no hostile intent,shows no capability of causing jeopardy,and bearing in mind that the seperatists are classified as nothing more than political dissidents,the use of extreme force is not suitable at hand.

How would any of us here feel,if we learn that the FBI crashed the Green Party HQ,forcibly arrested their leaders and then brutally handled them?We will be screaming political oppression,if not police brutality.

Were the Green Party attending an execution of members of the Police and Senate, did the Police before turning up know that the Green party was building an Army with which to attack the Government? Is your analogy anywhere remotely close to the events?

So,while Windu certainly displays overconfidence and underestimating of the situation at hand{hey,there's that clouding of the Jedi judgement we see again.},his actions are defensible.

No they are not defensible, they were stupid and sloppy. If the police were going to raid the HQ of a Terrorist organisation that they had evidence of Colluding to overthrow the Government and were building an army to that end, would you even try to defend the actions of a police officer who tried to arrest them all on his own, and that was his only plan! No, you would expect a complete SWAT assualt using Gas Grenades, Flashbangs and complete domination of the Suspects and situation at all costs. Watch a SWAT team in action sometime and tell me they ask nicely for the bad guys to play nice, or do they grab and cuff everyone in sight and sort out the Bad guys from the bystanders afterwards. ( it' the latter as it's the only way to come out of it with the minimum chance of losing your guys or the suspects, if you control the situation then there's less chance of a firefight).

While many of us may disagree on the wisdom of such tactics,again,the PR cosquences of what will be termed brutal actions will only cause more harm to the Jedi and the Old Republic

Brutal?? WTF, you go in and Cuff everyone, which part of that is less brutal than... say the suspects watching the execution of Police officers and a member of the Senate?

[Crossover_Maniac]

I've always wondered how the jedi would fill that role. The galaxy is huge and there don't seem to be enough jedi to act as peacekeepers in any degree.

Yeah, you'd think that. 10,000 Jedi (where did that number come from) can't possibly be peacekeepers in a galaxy of 12 million worlds. I believe they play a special ops roll. They use the Force to forsee where and when trouble will start, who will start, why, and what to do about long before it starts. This is why it was so damning for the Jedi to have their visions of the future blocked by Palpatine. Without it, they don't have the ability of the surgical strike that allowed them to be so effective even with their small number.