StarDestroyer.Net BBS

As we see in ROTS and ROTJ, force lightning is very powerful. However, in ROTS we see Palpatine blast Yoda's sabre out of his hands, and we see Mace using all his streingth to push it away. However, in AOTC, Dooku fires force lightning capable of causing Anakin much pain at Obi-Wan, but Obi-Wan just deflects it with his lightsabre without even flinching. Is Palpatine's lightning really that much more powerful then Dooku's?

It looks like to me that either Dooku is so much weaker then Palpatine that his lightning doesnt do very much (contradicted by Anakin getting blasted earlier in the same fight) or Obi-Wan has something that Mace doesnt have in ROTS.

Please, your imput.

They're using their Force Mastery feat, so that they can use a second Force skill as a free action during their turn. That way, they can use Force Lightning and Move Object at the same time.

Uhm, what I mean is that I'm pretty sure that when Anakin was thrown backward and Mace was pushed back, there was some telekinesis involved, along with the lightning.

If the question is simply whether Palpatine's lightning is that much more powerful than Dooku's, I'd say "yes".

Well there's also the fact that Palpatine was actively trying to kill Mace and later Luke, while it seems that Dooku was aiming at keeping Anakin and Obi-Wan held back.

Sadly we haven't really seen what physical damage it can actually do. Sure, it makes the clothes or skin of the Jedi it hits give off steam (or smoke?), but no scars, bleeding, burns, etc.

The exception being Palpatine of course (and not just his face, but also his hands, skin, nails, teeth), and that was explained on the DVD as the strain of his battle with Mace Windu.

It could be argued that the Jedi use their energy absorption skills to minimize the damage. Maybe it would set a normal human on fire. Maybe the damage is all internal. Maybe it's (as one person put it) "bad joo joo" that just attacks your soul or something.

Maybe Luke had spidery burns all over his body under his clothes, we just never saw it... though his hair didn't stand on end.

Yeah, Force Lightning is clearly not electrical lightning as we know it. I causes no burns or scarring as Kurgan said, but also doesn't scorch or ignight clothing and other inflammable material or cause electrical interference to nearby electronic objects.

It must simply be a Force torture tactic which superficially looks like electrical lightning, while actually having none of the physical properties of true lightning.

Although that's kind of an irrelevant tangent from the original question.

In the film Luke obviously has lightning arcing over his teeth and through his eyes; later on, in Truce of Bakura, they discover that he's dangerously weakened and his bones are degenerating (IIRC), due to the lightning; this is a few days afterwards. He manages to end the degeneration and weakness with a Jedi healing trance, though.

Kurgan wrote:Sadly we haven't really seen what physical damage it can actually do. Sure, it makes the clothes or skin of the Jedi it hits give off steam (or smoke?), but no scars, bleeding, burns, etc.

The exception being Palpatine of course (and not just his face, but also his hands, skin, nails, teeth), and that was explained on the DVD as the strain of his battle with Mace Windu.

It could be argued that the Jedi use their energy absorption skills to minimize the damage. Maybe it would set a normal human on fire. Maybe the damage is all internal. Maybe it's (as one person put it) "bad joo joo" that just attacks your soul or something.

Actually we have seen Force lightning do physical damage. In AOTC when Yoda deflects the lightning back at Dooku and then he deflects it in the ceeling there is an explosion at the point of impact and we see fragments fying.

Elheru Aran wrote:In the film Luke obviously has lightning arcing over his teeth and through his eyes; later on, in Truce of Bakura, they discover that he's dangerously weakened and his bones are degenerating (IIRC), due to the lightning; this is a few days afterwards. He manages to end the degeneration and weakness with a Jedi healing trance, though.

Very interesting!

Why use the extra energy/focus/time/whatever to add a slow degenerative effect to your attack when you are just killing him anyway? That is like slicing your foe's wrist so he will bleed to death right before you cut off his head. Therefore, in my view, since Palpatine was planning on killing him right away and not planning to let him waste away and degenerate like that, it is an inherent part of (at least Palpatine's) lightning.

But, in between AOTC and ROTS, do we hear about Anakin using any healing trance? If not, it is wither that the authers of the in-between books just didn't put it in, or that only the lightning of a very powerful sith lord causes the degeneration thing.

Also, how is it that Dooku can just effortlessly deflect force lightning, but Yoda must "catch" it, and use a lot of energy to push it away?

But, in between AOTC and ROTS, do we hear about Anakin using any healing trance? If not, it is wither that the authers of the in-between books just didn't put it in, or that only the lightning of a very powerful sith lord causes the degeneration thing.

Um, why would we hear about it? the EU doesn't cover every instant of the time between the movies. I suspect he entered one on the trip back to Naboo (or spent some time in a bacta tank, which is an alternative listed in TaB.)

Also, how is it that Dooku can just effortlessly deflect force lightning, but Yoda must "catch" it, and use a lot of energy to push it away?

Either the attack was weaker when Yoda reflected it, or he was simply more experienced with lightning, which is likely.

I've always felt that force lightning is a straightforward raw Force energy attack. The user unleashes force energy at a target causing any range of effects possible through utilization of the Force. Normally this is realized as intense pain and possibly messing with the Force connection in the effected target (causing death in a non-Force user and a battle of wills in a Force user because they can control the Force that flows through them). This makes the lightning's power based on the strength of the user and it's effects based on the user's talents. But that's just my little theory.

In terms of the Yoda and Dooku fight, Yoda collects the entire stream of lightning, which would take effort, where as Dooku "merely" redirected the stream of force lightning. Under the assumptions of my theory, Dooku would have more control over the lightning since it was a manifestation of his raw force power.

Noble Ire wrote: Um, why would we hear about it? the EU doesn't cover every instant of the time between the movies. I suspect he entered one on the trip back to Naboo (or spent some time in a bacta tank, which is an alternative listed in TaB.)

I wouldn't be surprised if Anakin had been in an healing trance in any case, to help his arm heal as much as it could from its amputation and to interface his nerves better with the artifical arm he installed on himself (could be wrong but IIRC he put it on himself) as the method of attaching artifical limbs appears to be painful (ref the droids putting Vader's legs on; he distinctly arcs his back in pain).

The way i've heard it explained, Force lightning is like a snake bite. The outward damage is relatively minor, but inside you're soul is being torn apart. The Force is being like sucked dry out of you until you're left a dried out husk. If thats true, then thats why Palpatine probably looks so shitty, thats probably how you look after youget drained of your Force spirit but he only lost a tiny bit comparitively. This might also explain what happened to Luke's bones and stuff.

Its a raw Force blast, like a shaped charge it just takes the blast and focuses it. The 'lightning' is just like an electrical disturbabce caused by the energy blast, which of course fallows the path of the 'beam'.

Elheru Aran wrote:

Noble Ire wrote: Um, why would we hear about it? the EU doesn't cover every instant of the time between the movies. I suspect he entered one on the trip back to Naboo (or spent some time in a bacta tank, which is an alternative listed in TaB.)

I wouldn't be surprised if Anakin had been in an healing trance in any case, to help his arm heal as much as it could from its amputation and to interface his nerves better with the artifical arm he installed on himself (could be wrong but IIRC he put it on himself) as the method of attaching artifical limbs appears to be painful (ref the droids putting Vader's legs on; he distinctly arcs his back in pain).

Although we didn't see the procedure itself, we did see Luke getting his artificial hand and he seemed to be OK. However, I imagine attaching artificial limbs to someone in Anakin's condition would be painful. He's already in pain and struggling to live. Then you need to attach these limbs to his nerves which would have been overloaded with pain or just burnt. You then need to reactivate these nerves to verify that the attachment is functioning properly (remember Luke was tested for feeling). It would be immensely painful to do something like that to Anakin.

Kane Starkiller wrote:

Kurgan wrote:Sadly we haven't really seen what physical damage it can actually do. Sure, it makes the clothes or skin of the Jedi it hits give off steam (or smoke?), but no scars, bleeding, burns, etc.

The exception being Palpatine of course (and not just his face, but also his hands, skin, nails, teeth), and that was explained on the DVD as the strain of his battle with Mace Windu.

It could be argued that the Jedi use their energy absorption skills to minimize the damage. Maybe it would set a normal human on fire. Maybe the damage is all internal. Maybe it's (as one person put it) "bad joo joo" that just attacks your soul or something.

Actually we have seen Force lightning do physical damage. In AOTC when Yoda deflects the lightning back at Dooku and then he deflects it in the ceeling there is an explosion at the point of impact and we see fragments fying.

Ah good point, I completely forgot about that!

As far as Dooku vs. Yoda's use of lightning, it could merely be there's more than one way to "counter" a lightning attack. I've always wished to argue that Yoda actually uses lightning himself, he doesn't just absorb and toss the same physical bolt back. Perhaps he's making wiser use of the energy than Dooku, or maybe not.

Yoda's ability to "use" the lightning seems like he has more control over it than Dooku. Perhaps his "probing of the Dark Side" including studying up on lightning usage (assuming this is some kind of knowledge normally restricted to the Dark Side as commonly speculated).

Sort of like Mortal Kombat 3 (Ultimate revision anyway). You can block a projectile somebody throws at you and then toss one of your own, or you can (depending on the character) use a special move that makes their own projectile richochet back at them.

So you couldn't use Force Lightning to charge up a battery huh?

Perhaps Anakin was denied painkillers (Palpy is something of a sadist after all) during his surgery. They certainly didn't try to sedate him (well at the end he holds pretty still, maybe by that time).

PS: Yoda also would need to go into his 'healing trance' on Dagobah, but he's got 20 years to do it, so no problem.

avatarxprime wrote:In terms of the Yoda and Dooku fight, Yoda collects the entire stream of lightning, which would take effort, where as Dooku "merely" redirected the stream of force lightning. Under the assumptions of my theory, Dooku would have more control over the lightning since it was a manifestation of his raw force power.

Also, in the ROTJ novel, Luke does the same thing to Palpatine's lightning. He uses the Force to deflect the lightning, but Palpatine manages to overwhelm him anyway.

In The Unseen Queen, one of the Jedi (I think it's Mara, but it may have been Luke) uses force lightning, and it's described IIRC, as "[they] let out a blast of pure Force energy." Or something like that.

Dooku's using a Force Wall on anakin as well as lightning, according to the AOTC novelization (which is why he gets thrown)

My interpretation of Force Lightning is that it, quite simply, is an attack on the target's entire being. The act of willing someone not merely to submit, but to mentally (and perhaps physically) be annihilated, would be quite difficult to reconcile with the Jedi Code.

To me, the Jedi seem quite willing to do what they feel is necessary to destroy a threat, but they rarely seem willing to go past that step. Once a threat has been contained, that's it. In contrasts, those that use Force Lightning rarely seem to discharge it in a controlled manner -- the calmest attempt we've seen was made by Dooku, whose attempts hardly measured up to the barrage presented by Sidious.

As I've seen Force Lightning described before, the difficulty faced by a Jedi would be to call upon Force Lightning and still containing its use to something besides the utter destruction of the enemy.

Maybe so, but sometimes that's the only thing that you can do.

DesertFly wrote:Maybe so, but sometimes that's the only thing that you can do.

True, but I figure it's like giving someone a chainsaw and some methamphetamines and then asking him to moderately torture a suspect. It's gonna be a difficult proposition.

Or maybe my analogies are taking on a life of their own, who can say?

Eleas wrote:True, but I figure it's like giving someone a chainsaw and some methamphetamines and then asking him to moderately torture a suspect. It's gonna be a difficult proposition.

Or maybe my analogies are taking on a life of their own, who can say?

But I'm not talking about torturing. I think it's more for times when you are up against an enemy that you absolutely have to kill. One who, for whatever reason, won't back down, can't be reasoned with, and disarming wouldn't be effective or wouldn't be worth it. I admit that this has many provisions for a "what if" scenario, but I'm sure that times like this come up. Of course, I don't see an OR Jedi employing this technic because there probably is a stigma against it, but I don't see one of NJO Jedi having problems using it, if they have the skill and control to do so, and the right conditions are met.

DesertFly wrote:

Eleas wrote:True, but I figure it's like giving someone a chainsaw and some methamphetamines and then asking him to moderately torture a suspect. It's gonna be a difficult proposition.

Or maybe my analogies are taking on a life of their own, who can say?

But I'm not talking about torturing. I think it's more for times when you are up against an enemy that you absolutely have to kill. One who, for whatever reason, won't back down, can't be reasoned with, and disarming wouldn't be effective or wouldn't be worth it.

Or maybe that's why they have lightsabers, TK, et cetera. There are few enemies around that would need to be countered specifically by the Force Lightning technique.

DesertFly wrote: I admit that this has many provisions for a "what if" scenario, but I'm sure that times like this come up. Of course, I don't see an OR Jedi employing this technic because there probably is a stigma against it, but I don't see one of NJO Jedi having problems using it, if they have the skill and control to do so, and the right conditions are met.

We are talking about the Jedi here, right? People so terminally sloppy and enamored with their abilities as to allow their vaunted Force precognition to become a crutch? While vested with the powers of a civil servant (and presumably answerable to the same orders of conduct), the Jedi allowed their most prevalent martial regimen to essentually become completely unsuited to actual combat, trusting their supernatural powers to act as a safety net. This short-sightednes cost them dearly; they were caught utterly flat-footed in actual battle on Kamino, the first of which were to be many unpleasant bouts with real-life facts theretofore overlooked.

Somehow, they don't strike me as very immune to a dogmatic, narrow-minded mindset. That Yoda, in specific situations, can reflect or even channel Force Lightning, is an impressive feat solely because one almost has to attribute the stagnation and ossification of the Order to his personal influence.

Eleas wrote:My interpretation of Force Lightning is that it, quite simply, is an attack on the target's entire being. The act of willing someone not merely to submit, but to mentally (and perhaps physically) be annihilated, would be quite difficult to reconcile with the Jedi Code.

Well, we really don't know the contents of the Jedi Code or what loopholes exist in it.

I know, I know, the Jedi code is that "there is no death there is the force" thing, but that doesn't exactly line up with the movies. Apparently the code forbids all kinds of things not mentioned therein.

As I've seen Force Lightning described before, the difficulty faced by a Jedi would be to call upon Force Lightning and still containing its use to something besides the utter destruction of the enemy.

Like Yoda?

Kurgan wrote:Well, we really don't know the contents of the Jedi Code or what loopholes exist in it.

Not only that, but we just don't know how strictly the code is adhered to. In some cases, it seems ironclad; in others, very fast and loose.

Kurgan wrote:Like Yoda?

I'm fairly uncertain that Yoda, though he might call upon Force Lightning, chose not to. It would no doubt be unwise to enter such territory in the proximity of Dark Side practicioners of such skill.

We do see an energy buildup near Yoda's hands in the Dooku fight, as with Palpatine, supported in the latter case by the energy losing containment and exploding. Now if Yoda was trying to send lightning back, how did he manage that if he was just barely holding on as it was, and why so unfocused, and for what purpose? No, it seems clear to me that the slightly ambiguous scene with Dooku is neatly resolved if we look at the scene with Sidious in ROTS.

Besides, Ghost Rider disagreed with you earlier, and I need to show spousal loyalty and back him up, or I swear I'll be without sex for a month.