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Most EU sources (WEG, computer games) depicts the Empire as an oppresive regime, as if citizens are regularly terrorized and oppressed by its government.

Examples:
- Keyan Farlander (X-Wing PCG): Has personal hatred to the Empire. His families are among the victims of the Empire's oppresive action. (I don't remember exactly, but in X-Wing manual, when listening to Mothma's speech, Keyan remembered of his family's fate (home planet?) as victim of the Empire.)
- Kylie Katarn: also has personal grudge against the Empire.
- Ghorman massacre: referenced in many EU materials, such as X-Wing manual. Captain (now Grand Moff) Tarkin landed a cruiser on top of a bunch of protester, killing them en masse & reducing them to ashes.
- Marek Stele: innocently serve the Emperor until he discovered the fact about his father.

Yet, if we played TIE Fighter computer game, we can see "the other side of the story." In TIE Fighter, the Empire is seen as strong government which maintains law & order in the galaxy. The Empire brought peace to two warring minor governments (Dimok & Ripoblus), provided asylum to Ripoblus' political refugees, protected the Habeen from Nharwaak pirate clan, battled pirates in outer rim, arrested corrupted officers (Admiral Harkov), protected its military personnel (the Secret Order saved my life from the traitorous Admiral Harkov. For that alone, they deserve my loyalty ), and protected its citizen.

Now, last point may be debatable, but if I'm not wrong, there was a mission in TIE Fighter when we had to protect the evacuation of workers from a manufacturing facility (Battle 9?). Or was it a space station? Well, I played TIE Fighter back in 1996, but there were some missions when we have to protect evacuation process.

Now, back to the topic: What it was like to be an Imperial Citizen?

Are the Imperial Citizens regularly oppressed by the government? Do the people live in terror? (As if in Eastern Bloc countries during cold war, where the Secret Police can knock your neighboor's door in the middle of the night, and you can only wonder: tommorow, who's next?)

Or maybe the people of the Empire live like in most southeast asian countries? Like in Malaysia, when some opposition (like Anwar Ibrahim) are butt-raped by the government (Mahathir), but the rest of the people can live free, content, and prosper, as long as they don't fuck up with the government; where the people doesn't live in terror, and doesn't have to be constantly worry about Secret Police knocking your door in the middle of the night.

Is it possible that regular Imperial Citizen lives freely without terrorized by the government? Is it possible that the Empire takes a more subtle way to oppress the opposition? (ala government conspirator-style in X-Files?)

Do Imperial Citizen live in content, free to do anything they want (like choosing any job they want, owning personal property, travelling around the galaxy, setting up their own business, participating in stock market, go clubbing at night , etc), as long as they don't oppose the government?

Considering that the Emperor cares about public opinion, is the Empire's dictatorship as brutal and blatant like often described in the EU? Do the people feel oppressed? Again: what it was like to be an Imperial Citizen?

PS: I know that I've been proposing this topic in some previous threads regarding to the Empire ("Is the Empire Evil?" or "Empire hated? Pah"), but I have no intention to trolling. Frankly, I'll appreciate your opinion regarding to this matter, since I guess it'll lot easier to discuss the lives of regular GE people than asking whether the Empire is evil or not ("Evil" is quite hard to define, I guess).

They were probably happy at the stability the Emperor brought. And it all came to an end because of a rebel alliance formed by corrupt senators attempting to reclaim their cushy jobs.

I think that they were pretty happy with the Empire. They had spoils coming in, and it seemed fairly stable and wealthy. I wouldn't have a problem living in the Empire, though women and aliens might, according to the EU.

Think about what kind of chaos the Seperatist movement was creating and the obvious disatisfaction with the Republic (Thousands of star systems were flocking to the banner of the Separatists) creating the climate that starts the Clone war.

The New Order rises and restores...you guessed it order. Most people don;t really care about freedom, they DO care about an orderly way of living, Mussolinin keeping the trains running on time and all that.

I think that the citizens may not be as free as they were under the Old Republic but most don't seem to care. The Rebel Alliance simply did not have the level of support that teh Separatist movement had. Thousands of systems weren't flocking to their banner. Think about it, the only systems that openly sided with the rebels were Mon Calamari and Alderaan. We all know what happened to Alderaan. The rebel forces are fielding old and outdated equipment, HARDLY the maginificent droid armies that the Separtists were fielding. They did not have the manpower to directly confront the empire. They were a small splinter group that happened to get exetremely lucky against a far more powerful foe.

Out of a galaxy of Millions of systems and quintillions of citizens, how many people were honestly in the rebellion - a few million??

When one looks at the chaos that is the NR one wonders if perhaps the majority of citizens don't look back upon those old imperial days with a tear in their eyes.

Stravo wrote:
When one looks at the chaos that is the NR one wonders if perhaps the majority of citizens don't look back upon those old imperial days with a tear in their eyes.

During the Hand of Thrawn Duology Pellaeon states that many systems voluntarily remained in the Empire.

I think that for the Core worlds it would be okay, and it would be GREAT for industrial planets, but I also think that it would have hurt a lot of other, littler planets. I think it would depend on the world.

This is the problem the Expanded Universe has created. Lucas has stated over and over that he likes black and white clear cut issues. The Rebels are good guys, the Empire is evil. Its very obvious in the movies that Imperials are bad guys. However, when you come into the EU, you constantly get a view on the Imperial side. Not the citizens view mind you, but the officers. Palleon, Thrawn, Daala, Isard, Harrsk. Over and over, to them, there was stability. Everything was perfect. Even more so, the authors seem to realize they fucked up and now you don't have bad guy vs. good guy but two good guys fighting each other. Yet the Rebels look more like they are the bad guys. So what do they do? Oh, the Empire is really evil, look how the treat women and aliens. Much like America did until early 1900s. This is sort of striking back to the Thrawn thread. Also, when the authors realize what they did, Kyp, Dash, other characters just happen to have an incident that goes sour. Kyp's parents protested the Empire, he was tossed into the spice mines. Dash's brother ran into the Emperor's favorit mueseum. WTF?!? Just make the bastards the oppresive regime they are supposed to be and you won't have all of this. If the officers you see, interact with, that are portrayed see, think and feel the Empire is stability than it blurs the lines and just causes a lot of questions. Star Trek has a lot of questions. Star Wars has an evil Galactic Empire and the saving graces of the Rebel Alliance. Even worse, is that EU really did a 180. The NR has the exact problems the OR had just before it's fall. Talk about a lack of creativity.


P.S. and you guys wonder why Lucas just throws EU books into the fireplace?

wow!!! I think I would have to agree with you. The vision Lucas had, has been distorted by the eu writers. I can't really judge because I haven't read most of the EU books and I'm not really sure I want to. Rhe ones I have read were very poor.

Besides the Jedi, there were no "Imperial Mass Holocausts", so I'm thinking if you stayed away from the Rebellion, you wouldn't be harmed. In the core worlds, there would be almost no Rebel influence, but in the Outer Rim, there would be more, due to less Imperial influence.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:Besides the Jedi, there were no "Imperial Mass Holocausts", so I'm thinking if you stayed away from the Rebellion, you wouldn't be harmed. In the core worlds, there would be almost no Rebel influence, but in the Outer Rim, there would be more, due to less Imperial influence.

There were a few other holocausts in the EU, mostly of races or planets. Also remember that the Core Worlds would see more benefits from the Empire. They would have massive military industrial contracts coming in, and a desperate need for supplies, labor, and materials. In the Outer Rim and on the fringes, there would be more unrest because there the Imperials are seen more as unjust law-makers, instead of as contract-suppliers. On the Rim, there would be more people who are just against galactic governments and laws than there would be in the Core.

Getting Taxed heavily would be one bad thing about being an Imp citizen. I would like to say that the outer rim gets taxed the most but it cant be true because in the deleted Biggs scene in A New Hope, Luke tells Biggs that his uncle has no major problems with the Imps and dosent know why the Empire would have any intrest on his backwater planet. But a thing that is known to go on is Imperial Stormtrooper random raids on citizens houses. And you simply have no freedom and no choices in your government.

Tychu wrote:Getting Taxed heavily would be one bad thing about being an Imp citizen. I would like to say that the outer rim gets taxed the most but it cant be true because in the deleted Biggs scene in A New Hope, Luke tells Biggs that his uncle has no major problems with the Imps and dosent know why the Empire would have any intrest on his backwater planet. But a thing that is known to go on is Imperial Stormtrooper random raids on citizens houses. And you simply have no freedom and no choices in your government.

Hmm... that's interesting. Luke's uncle is an ordinary Imperial citizen and yet he has no major problems with the Empire. Can we use this fact to reasonably extrapolate the lives of ordinary people in the Empire?

Anyway, if we only count the movies, so far the only people having problem with the Empire are:
Leia: One of rebel leader.
Han: Smuggler & criminal.
Luke: Basically have no trouble with the Empire until he knew story about his father from Obi-Wan Kenobi (Darth Vader killed your father), and decide to voluntarily help the Princess and the Rebellion.
Lando: Operating business illegally (not that gas mining is an illegal business; he just lack of legal license or such).

Tychu wrote: But a thing that is known to go on is Imperial Stormtrooper random raids on citizens houses.

I don't recall such scene in the movie. Did they really do it? Anyway, was it a 'raid', or 'police inspection'?
Anyway, the fact that Stormtroopers pretended to be Sandpeople during Lars family slaughter indicates that they are unlike most Secret Police in Eastern Bloc country during Cold War, which can knock your door at whim, take you for interrogation, and basically nothing you can do about it.

Tychu wrote:
And you simply have no freedom and no choices in your government.

I think it depends on what kind of dictatorship we are talking about. I may sound ridiculous, but for the sake of simplicity, I'll qualify them as "good" dictatorship and "bad" dictatoship. (note that this is like two opposite ends of the spectrum; any dictatorship government could actually falls in-between).

In "bad" dictatorship, people lives in terror and oppression. The Secret Police can knock your door at whim. The government censors everything. Going vacation abroad may cause you trouble. The government can confiscate your private property at will. Even major corporations Etc.

In "good" dictatorship, people doesn't live in terror nor oppression. It is still dictatorship, so you cannot choose your leader. You are free to do anything you want, as long as you don't oppose the government. But you are free, for instance, to choose any job you want. You are free to live prosper by your own standard. You are free to accumulate wealth. Any form of art and entertainment are freely allowed (as long as not used as tools to opposse the government). You are free to go anywhere you like. And even if you're just common criminal, you can still expect fair and equal justice.

The problem is: Do the Galactic Empire qualify as "good" dictatorship or "bad" one? What it was like to be an Imperial Citizen?

If we disregard EU and only count canon sources, is it possible to say anything about the live of an ordinary Imperial Citizen? Will it be more possible if we also count the EU?

Originally posted by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman
Luke: Basically have no trouble with the Empire until he knew story about his father from Obi-Wan Kenobi (Darth Vader killed your father), and decide to voluntarily help the Princess and the Rebellion.

Ahh actually Threepio mentioned to him that the reason they came into being in his possesion was due to the Rebellion, and Luke seemed very excited about it...Mind you he was also looking forward to joining the Imperial Academy like his friends did before him, who he later remet at Yavin, so go figure!

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:Besides the Jedi, there were no "Imperial Mass Holocausts", so I'm thinking if you stayed away from the Rebellion, you wouldn't be harmed. In the core worlds, there would be almost no Rebel influence, but in the Outer Rim, there would be more, due to less Imperial influence.

I'm not so convinced yet. I don't see no Nemodians hanging around in the Empire... though they may be somewhere else not in the Trillogy (at their home planet thinking back wondering what happened to their corperate empire, or whatever) but I tend to think that the Empire, (or the Old Republic under Chancellor Palpatine) possibly wiped the species out completley or to at least a very large extent. I'm also interested in what happens to naboo... I suppose EP III may have some clues to this.

Crown wrote: Ahh actually Threepio mentioned to him that the reason they came into being in his possesion was due to the Rebellion, and Luke seemed very excited about it...Mind you he was also looking forward to joining the Imperial Academy like his friends did before him, who he later remet at Yavin, so go figure!

True. As i've posted in "The Empire hated? Pah" thread, Luke's excitement about joining the Rebellion indicates that "the Empire is evil" is an accepted norm around his neighboorhood.

Unfortunately, we have no idea how wide that perspective ("Empire is evil") accepted around Luke's neighborhood. Is it only among his close friends? (Wedge, Biggs). Is it accepted among the people in his village? The whole Tatooine?

Thus, I think Luke's excitement about joining the Rebellion cannot be extrapolated to claim that the Empire is "bad dictator". Yet, it cannot be used to prove that the Empire is "good dictator", either.

That's why I keep asking the questions regarding to what it was like to be an Imperial Citizen. That's why I created this thread after asking such questions in two previous threads ("Is the Empire Evil" and "Empire hated? Pah").

Because, based on the facts on the movie, I cannot say anything about the lives of an Imperial citizen. Are they oppressed and terrorized by the government? Can the Secret Police (or Stormtroopers, in this case) knock their doors at whim and drag anyone to interrogate? Do the Empire censors everything so that the citizen are frustrated and starving for entertainment?

Yet, if we count EU, I think it just make things more complicated. Some EU literature are just so biased against the Empire, while some others are on the opposite side.

That's why I created this thread, folks. You guys may see what I've overlooked.

jenat-lai wrote:

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:Besides the Jedi, there were no "Imperial Mass Holocausts", so I'm thinking if you stayed away from the Rebellion, you wouldn't be harmed. In the core worlds, there would be almost no Rebel influence, but in the Outer Rim, there would be more, due to less Imperial influence.

I'm not so convinced yet. I don't see no Nemodians hanging around in the Empire... though they may be somewhere else not in the Trillogy (at their home planet thinking back wondering what happened to their corperate empire, or whatever) but I tend to think that the Empire, (or the Old Republic under Chancellor Palpatine) possibly wiped the species out completley or to at least a very large extent. I'm also interested in what happens to naboo... I suppose EP III may have some clues to this.

Yet we don't have a proof that Nemodians were genocided during Palpatine's era. That's the problem with the original trilogy; we never got much chance to see the fate of ordinary citizen. All we can see is mostly about "what it was like to be a Rebel" or "Imperial officer", but not ordinary people.

course, tatooine is infamous for it's crime, people are prolly biased against authority there.

the empire, from what I've seen is excellent for humans, (tho females dont rise far in the military) and viscous to aliens, and those who support them.

We don't know that Luke wanted to join the Rebellion before he got mixed up with that old wizard, Ben Kenobi. On a rim world, news from the Core would only exist in rumor an innuendo - especially news of a rebellion against the government, and especially with a hick moisture farm-boy who doesn't get to the city much. (A trip to Radio Shack for power converters is apparently a big outing.) When, all of a sudden, eye witnesses to said rebellion fall in his lap, of course he'd be excited. Also note, that Luke was continually chaffing against his uncle for preventing him from sending his application to the Academy, an Imperial institution.

I think Palpatine did a great service to the galaxy by decentralizing the government. It's hard enough to run a city, state and country with voting citeznry - imagine having to elect world representatives and the politics that involved! Though I, as an Imperial citizen, might disagree with being under the thumb of a militarized Moff, there might be a small part of me relieved at not having to further aquiesce myself to more politicians.

Whilst one is hard pressed to argue with the obvious benefits derived from a tyranny, there is one notable flaw that seems reoccurant.

In Imperial systems, there is a far greater propensity for civil war. Too many troops required to oversea dominions/border areas means too many generals that might just decide that the way that the Galaxy is being run is not up to the same par as what it would be under him.

In Imperial systems, there is a far greater propensity for civil war. Too many troops required to oversea dominions/border areas means too many generals that might just decide that the way that the Galaxy is being run is not up to the same par as what it would be under him.

Acutal no, Not with the Stormys there, Even exluding the strong possiblity that they where clones the fact is, more than anything else they where 100% Devoted to Papy, much like the 40k Space Marines are to thier old Emperor to draw a sutable parell

Indeed, what is life like for the Imperial citizen? A difficult question, to say the least. Needless to say, it varies a great deal depending on any number of variables, including but not limited to species, socio-economic background, culture, political ideology, and location. Certainly, however, the question merits a more thorough answer, as best as can be provided.

A very interesting section from a document (namely, The Imperial Sourcebook) prepared by Major Arhul Hextrophon, Executive Secretary and Master Historian, Alliance High Command, provides a general summary of citizenship within the Galactic Empire. It is to be noted, however, that the section is written by Major Hextrophon and his staff; whilst the factual content of the passage may or may not be accurate, it is unquestionable that the presentation is biased in favour of the Alliance.

All sapient inhabitants of the Empire – except droids – are considered full citizens. Full citizens are accorded certain rights under Imperial law, namely, the right to follow the precepts of the New Order fully and without question. Other rights include certain freedoms that in no way interfere with Imperial doctrines and goals.

Where in the galaxy a citizen is determines the amount of prohibitions and restrictions governing his or her daily life. The least restrictive areas in the galaxy tend to be in the Galactic Core and in the Outer Rim Territories. Those areas in between find themselves under the greatest amount of scrutiny and, therefore, face the brunt of Imperial authority.

All citizens are subject to the laws of the Empire, and all must pay some form of tribute to the New Order. Laws vary from system to system, but the most uniform are the Imperial Revenue Codes. Under these laws, the burden of proof is upon the citizen to show that he has met all of his fiscal obligations to the Empire. Failure to provide proof is considered an admission of guilt, penalties for which range from confiscation of goods to the increasingly common sentence to labor camps.

Pertinent facts from this excerpt include: (a.) all sapient beings living the Empire’s territories are considered citizens; (b.) all citizens enjoy the same basic rights and freedoms, although those rights and freedoms are undefined within the document; (c.) the degree of Imperial control to which a citizen is subject varies, depending largely upon where in the Empire one happens to live; (d.) all citizens are subject to Imperial law; and (e.) all citizens are required to pay taxes.

The Dark Empire Sourcebook presents an interesting but regrettably brief description of life in the Empire:

Far from the watchful eye of the Empire and its clean, orderly police-state planets, there is a totally different world not patrolled by armed and armored troops, lacking curfews and weapons detectors and sentry droids. Most Imperial citizens never enter this world, moving only in hermetically sealed, environmentally sculpted corridors and mallplexes. But if they left behind their safe luxury liner world for a while, they would see a unique environment with its own rules.

This description is neatly complemented by another, given by Han Solo and the Corporate Sector Sourcebook:

Ever mindful of its corporate image, the Authority likes the idea of a Sector free of crime and unrest. All things considered, many Authority worlds are just as safe as the safest in the Empire.

The Corporate Sector Authority’s Security Division is very much obsessed with maintenance of public order. Possession of firearms is carefully restricted, if not wholly criminalised. Police action is swift and severe; crime is not tolerated in the Corporate Sector. The CSA has made a deliberate and methoidcal effort to create a crime-free environment, and it is largely successful in its mission. It is notable that the Corporate Sector’s success is considered to be comparable to that of the Empire in the maintenance of order.

These descriptions of the Empire are almost Utopian in nature, with just enough of a reminder of the Empire’s authoritarianism to be classified as a negative Utopia. Indeed, given the Empire’s known use of genetic manipulation (no less than 40 per cent. of all stormtroopers are clones of the same template), mind control, brainwashing, and propaganda, life for the average citizen in the Empire begins to resemble something of a combination of Orwell’s 1984, Huxley’s Brave New World, and Zamyatin’s We. Almost ironically, citizens and citizenesses on Kashyyyk lived in close proximity to a large number of flatscreen monitors, a quiet reminder that Big Brother is indeed watching them.

Given these data, one may draw a rough sketch of life for the average Imperial citizen:

For the most part, life in the Empire is not a constant terror. Life is clean, neat, and orderly, in keeping with the Empire’s basic philosophy of unity, stability, conformity, and security. So long as one pays one’s taxes, obeys the laws, and doesn’t attract unnecessary attention to one’s self, one is in no danger. Certainly, the knowledge that one is always under surveillance is discomfiting, but privacy is but a small liberty to exchange for comfort. Consider the alternative: Chaos, anarchy, and ruin, like in the days of the Separatist crisis.

The constant presence of police and paramilitary forces is a silent reminder that disorderly or otherwise disruptive conduct is unacceptable in the new, idealised society. One can be gaoled – or worse – for officially inappropriate behaviour. For the most part, it’s best to simply comply with the law and go about one’s own business. The comfort and security of life for a law-abiding citizen like one’s self is worth the loss of certain civil liberties. Certainly, the Empire can be rather Draconian at times, but that seldom affects one’s life directly. One doesn’t have to watch the Execution Channel, after all.

Publius