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I was wondering what happened to those Padawans who faill to become Jedi. I've heard something about them being forced to join the Healer and Agricultural Corps. What are those organizations? What if washouts just want to live a normal life? Is that allowed?

The problem with them becoming 'normal' is that there would be an temptation to misuse their powers, tapping into the Dark Side. It would *not* do well for the Jedi if one of their (formerly) own went nuts and fucked over a shitload of people before being put down...

Well...

[KOTOR2 Spoilers]Apparently, the Jedi have a nifty little trick that enables them to literily strip a person of the ability to use the force, as was the case with the game's protagonist, so maybe they have the option of, if a person finds they just can't take the rigors of Jedihood, letting them go back to normal life after they wipe away all the training they recieved and any potential for regrowth.[/Spoilers]

Sharpshooter wrote:Well...

[KOTOR2 Spoilers]Apparently, the Jedi have a nifty little trick that enables them to literily strip a person of the ability to use the force, as was the case with the game's protagonist, so maybe they have the option of, if a person finds they just can't take the rigors of Jedihood, letting them go back to normal life after they wipe away all the training they recieved and any potential for regrowth.[/Spoilers]

Remember that this technique was not a light punishment and was in light of killing the offender.

Somehow a padawan drop out is hardly on this level.

As for what they do to them, probably archivists or some other mundane job.

Does anybody know what they do once they are sent to AgriCorps. Just do farmer shit like everyone around them with the additional disadvantage of being watched by Jedi chekists? Use their minute Force powers to help the plants grow?

Thank you.

Its stated i think in Rouge Planet or the Aurient Express Comic series that Obi-Wan was well on his way of being kicked out of the order and going to the AgriCorps. Then Qui-Gon found him and took him on as an apprentice. Its been a while since i read Rouge Planet so i dont remember the details exactly but Qui-Gon saw some potential in Obi-Wan and convinced the council to bring him back

Tychu wrote:Its stated i think in Rouge Planet or the Aurient Express Comic series that Obi-Wan was well on his way of being kicked out of the order and going to the AgriCorps. Then Qui-Gon found him and took him on as an apprentice. Its been a while since i read Rouge Planet so i dont remember the details exactly but Qui-Gon saw some potential in Obi-Wan and convinced the council to bring him back

Your thinking of Cloak of Deception in the EU novels perhaps?

Tychu wrote:Its stated i think in Rouge Planet or the Aurient Express Comic series that Obi-Wan was well on his way of being kicked out of the order and going to the AgriCorps.

In the 'jedi apprentice' books its stateds Obi-Wan was very near the cut off limit of 14 years to be picked as a padawan.(if you don't get picked by a master by 14 you get sent off to agricorps)

It wa in fat qui-go whio needed convincing to take Obi-Wan, a he didn't want another padawan since his last one fell to the darkside.

Crazedwraith wrote:

Tychu wrote:Its stated i think in Rouge Planet or the Aurient Express Comic series that Obi-Wan was well on his way of being kicked out of the order and going to the AgriCorps.

In the 'jedi apprentice' books its stateds Obi-Wan was very near the cut off limit of 14 years to be picked as a padawan.(if you don't get picked by a master by 14 you get sent off to agricorps)

It wa in fat qui-go whio needed convincing to take Obi-Wan, a he didn't want another padawan since his last one fell to the darkside.

The cut-off age is 13 standard years. Obi-Wan actually passed the cut-off age but Yoda offered an appeal when Qui-Gon wished to take him on as his apprentice.

Another fuck up the jedi made, I mean look at how good Obi-wan become,jedi master on council chamber,not to mention one of the top swordsman. Imagine how much potential could be wasted if he was sent to agriculture corps.

ray245 wrote:Another fuck up the jedi made, I mean look at how good Obi-wan become,jedi master on council chamber,not to mention one of the top swordsman. Imagine how much potential could be wasted if he was sent to agriculture corps.

The same could be said of a great many people, organizations, and places. Its hardly a failing unique to the Jedi order.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Does anybody know what they do once they are sent to AgriCorps. Just do farmer shit like everyone around them with the additional disadvantage of being watched by Jedi chekists? Use their minute Force powers to help the plants grow?

Thank you.

IIRC, the purpose of the Agricorps was to make sure that the various planets on the rim had enough of a food supply. The Medicorps or whatever they were called served a similar purpose with medical supplies. I'm not sure what they did exactly, though.

Sharpshooter wrote:Well...

[KOTOR2 Spoilers]Apparently, the Jedi have a nifty little trick that enables them to literily strip a person of the ability to use the force, as was the case with the game's protagonist, so maybe they have the option of, if a person finds they just can't take the rigors of Jedihood, letting them go back to normal life after they wipe away all the training they recieved and any potential for regrowth.[/Spoilers]

Nitpick: They never actually stripped his powers. They didn't have too. After the battle of Malachor V and the ensuing loss of life, the exile lost his connection to the force on his own. Now, the three remaining masters were going to do it to him on Dantooine after he found them all, but Darth Treya came in and curb-stomped them before they could complete the job.

JediMaster415 wrote:

crazedwraith wrote: It was in fact Qui-Gon who needed convincing to take Obi-Wan, a he didn't want another padawan since his last one fell to the darkside.

The cut-off age is 13 standard years. Obi-Wan actually passed the cut-off age but Yoda offered an appeal when Qui-Gon wished to take him on as his apprentice.

Whats your source on that? I'm pretty damn sure, Obi-Wan wasn't over the line, though his birthday was a couple of weeks away when Qui-Gon arrived at the temple and Yoda conviced him to take Obi on.

But then again this was in a kiddies book IIRC.

Cut off is at 13. Obi-Wan was a few weeks short of his birthday when another potential provoked Obi-Wan into giving him a small beating, which got reported to the masters, who decided to send Obi-Wan packing ahead of schedule. Yoda insisted Obi-Wan stay to fight for Qui-Gon, who rejected him anyway, and Obi-Wan got shipped off.

Bill_Dunaway wrote:I was wondering what happened to those Padawans who faill to become Jedi. I've heard something about them being forced to join the Healer and Agricultural Corps. What are those organizations? What if washouts just want to live a normal life? Is that allowed?

I read something about this in Darth Maul:Shadow Hunter. The Failed jedi are forced out of the order, and are assigned to a sector. They can live normal lives, but they must avoid using their powers.

My guess is that the Council has lower level jedi or secretaries of some sort check up on them from time-to-time.

also they might use the washouts for doing some jobs in the Temple.

I'm sure there are plenty of non-Jedi jobs in the Temple.

On the other hand, it's probably not such a good idea for failed Younglings and Padawans to hang around there. They might feel resentful of those who go on to become Knights.

The effectual forced enslavement of Padawan washouts would certainly, dramatically, weaken any moral high-ground the Jedi might have. What we are talking about here is basically taking a 13 year old, who has been conditioned throughout their entire life to be a Jedi, who feels it is their destiny, and who really fundamentally lacks the maturity needed to handle a dramatic change of fate such as this, then depriving them of their dream, and finally, forcing them into a miserable life in "AgriCorps" or as some bureaucratic functionary within the Jedi Temple. In essence, depriving them of their perceived raison d'etre and forcing them into servitude. There are times when I really regret that George Lucas doesn't step in and make this shit non-canonical.

With this kind of morality in the Jedi Order, one might as well endorse the Sith.

In essence, depriving them of their perceived raison d'etre and forcing them into servitude. There are times when I really regret that George Lucas doesn't step in and make this shit non-canonical.

What exactly would you propose instead? I can understand the objection in cases of trainees with very weak force powers, but what about those who are deemed too unstable to become Jedi? Would you simply release them upon society, knowing full well that they are likely to go dark and you'll have to eventually hunt them down anyways? The only options are containment, at the Temple or the Agri Corps, or execution. You pick the one that is more moral.

(There is the possibility that stripping the target of the Force, as seen in KOTOR 2, is an alternative, but it is possible that ability was lost with the near destruction of the Jedi Order.)

What exactly would you propose instead?

(A) recruit no more padawans into the system than there are projected Jedi capable of training them by the time they reach the age of 13 (an unsatisfactory solution, of course, due to the problem that some Padawans might be handed over to a master without proper preparation), or preferrably, (B), eliminate the age 13 cut off point for becoming an apprentice.

Other, more radical solutions that would go against what we have seen in the actual films could involve allowing Jedi to have multiple Padawans, or encouraging acceleration of the trials process.

The only "washouts" from the process should be Padawans who are discovered to be mentally ill so that they could potentially be lost to the dark side, and in those cases, the Jedi would simply take care of them for the balance of their life.

If the Jedi padawan selection process is all its cracked up to be, though, that instance should not even happen.

The fundamental problem with the Jedi system and washouts, is that basically, the Jedi are plucking toddlers out of their homes and semi-permanently or permanently removing them from their families, at an age before they are really capable of making a determination on their own of whether they want to be a part of the order. So my opinion on this matter is, if you're going to do all that to some kid, at least make sure beforehand that they are trainable, and afterwards, that they do in fact become Jedi, as opposed to lifelong slaves of the order or the AgriCorps.

I cannot help but to prefer, in general, the new Jedi training system Luke Skywalker set up in the EU.

RThurmont wrote:
The fundamental problem with the Jedi system and washouts, is that basically, the Jedi are plucking toddlers out of their homes and semi-permanently or permanently removing them from their families, at an age before they are really capable of making a determination on their own of whether they want to be a part of the order. So my opinion on this matter is, if you're going to do all that to some kid, at least make sure beforehand that they are trainable, and afterwards, that they do in fact become Jedi, as opposed to lifelong slaves of the order or the AgriCorps.

Despite their best efforts, some recruits are going to wash out. Recruiting at an older age, though would probably make it easier to determine who would succede as a Jedi and who wouldn't. For that matter, failed Jedi would at least probably have a prior life to go back to. Kids who grow up in the Jedi Temple would unfortunately be lacking in social skills needed to function as normal beings. Are they even allowed to go outside the Temple before they are assigned to a Master?

Of course, the Jedi order allowed Dooku to pursue a career in politics after he left. Undoubtedly, they figured a former master could never do anything evil while former Padawans and Younglings could get involved in all sorts of wickedness.

(A) recruit no more padawans into the system than there are projected Jedi capable of training them by the time they reach the age of 13 (an unsatisfactory solution, of course, due to the problem that some Padawans might be handed over to a master without proper preparation), or preferrably, (B), eliminate the age 13 cut off point for becoming an apprentice.

Other, more radical solutions that would go against what we have seen in the actual films could involve allowing Jedi to have multiple Padawans, or encouraging acceleration of the trials process.

I believe your missing the point. I personally do not understand the 13 year cut off, and disagree with it, but the issue is with those trainees who are either to weak in the Force to be Jedi, or are for whatever reason unsuitable to the role (ie, potentially dangerous.) More masters being availible won't change that.

The only "washouts" from the process should be Padawans who are discovered to be mentally ill so that they could potentially be lost to the dark side, and in those cases, the Jedi would simply take care of them for the balance of their life.

IIRC, that's what the Agri corps is designed to do (although the practice of sending post-13 trainees is very dubious.)

If the Jedi padawan selection process is all its cracked up to be, though, that instance should not even happen.

The fundamental problem with the Jedi system and washouts, is that basically, the Jedi are plucking toddlers out of their homes and semi-permanently or permanently removing them from their families, at an age before they are really capable of making a determination on their own of whether they want to be a part of the order. So my opinion on this matter is, if you're going to do all that to some kid, at least make sure beforehand that they are trainable, and afterwards, that they do in fact become Jedi, as opposed to lifelong slaves of the order or the AgriCorps.

I think the point of removing any Force-senstive they find is to remove potential corrupting effects from them at birth. That way, whether they become Jedi or not, they are more likely to be able to resist the dark side. Simply leaving a Force sensitive with his familiy because he seems unstable or unsuitable would fly in the face of the entire point of the policy (although doing this to those who are too weak in the force is not really defensible, although they may suspect that some might grow in power as they mature.)

I cannot help but to prefer, in general, the new Jedi training system Luke Skywalker set up in the EU.

True enough. On this level and more, the old system was corrupt, even Yoda noted it. However, simply returning all the washouts to society would not have been effective or safe.

I think the point of removing any Force-senstive they find is to remove potential corrupting effects from them at birth. That way, whether they become Jedi or not, they are more likely to be able to resist the dark side. Simply leaving a Force sensitive with his familiy because he seems unstable or unsuitable would fly in the face of the entire point of the policy (although doing this to those who are too weak in the force is not really defensible, although they may suspect that some might grow in power as they mature.)

So the Jedi forcibly seize the children from their families? As far as I'm concerned, that's not defensible, period. With moral standards like that, Palpatine looks like a hero.

Somehow, my problem with this whole area, the way its being described thus far, is it just doesn't seem to fit with the image of the Jedi that George Lucas seems to have conveyed in the films thus far. It just doesn't taste right...while technically if its in a book its in a low grade canon status, it really does feel apocryphal, like it doesn't belong in the SW storyline. Basically, this relatively minor detail, of Padawan washouts and Jedi recruitment, if left as has been discussed here, substantially undermines the heroic image of the Jedi and the moral proposition that the Old Republic offered.

If the Jedi have no qualms about simply seizing children, why didn't Qui-Gon just take Anakin? As far as I know, he simply had a tracking chip, not a remote kill device. Why not run and have it taken care of back on Coruscant?