"If so powerful you are, why leave?"

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"If so powerful you are, why leave?"

Post by Justforfun000 »

I searched but couldn't find any in depth analysis of the pre fight between Yoda and Palpy.

I found it particularly interesting because of the way it progressed.

Yoda walks in nonchalantly and effortlessly knocks out the two red guards as if they were mosquitos. ( I absolutely loved that part too. I get the biggest grin on my face everytime I see it :lol: )

Palpy looks amused at Yoda's appearance and gives the impression of "HA! So now the aged warrior plans on giving me a spanking does he?"

In fact the irony here is that he accuses Yoda of arrogance and then blasts him with a single bolt of lightning that mind you, DOES catch Yoda off guard (not sure why, he should have expected it). He did not crank up the power and keep blasting away until Yoda was turned into a messy green stain on the carpet. He stopped and just laughed at Yoda in a manner that suggests "I have nothing to fear from YOU. I can kick your little green ass from here to Dagobah".

What I find really interesting is when Yoda stands up and then gives it to him in a very powerful force blast that was strong enough to get a gasp of pain out of Palpatine, and blow him backwards enough to actually unceremoniously land upside down on top of his chair.

Now look carefully at his face when he gets to his feet. He actually looks surprised and a little scared. And what does he do? He tries to run out the door. That's when Yoda flips in front of him blocking his way and says that line. "If so POWERFUL you are.....why leave?" *green lightsaber ignites*.

Now this is where Palpatine looks at him and starts a slow smile as he says (almost as if he is realizing it), "You will not stop me. Vader will become more powerful than both of us".

So up to this point I want an indepth analysis here and see if anyone has a different take on it than me.

My take is this. Force blasts give an indication of the strength of a Jedi or Sith, and until Yoda actually demonstrated his power to Palpy, he did not truly expect Yoda to be anywhere near that strong. He has also had many decades of direct contact with him and Yoda was seemingly "retired" as a council member and teacher more than a combatant, and I think it's reasonable to assume Palpy thought he was too old and feeble to still have great power.

So when he was effortlessly thrown back like that, I think he panicked a little and thought he might have been a little too arrogant HIMSELF. :wink: Hence why he started to run.

I think when he thought about Vader though, he was basically bolstering his own ego enough to think, "Hell, I just converted their most potentially powerful member of the Jedi order and he is MY apprentice, so it's all good".

Now when they start the saber duel, it's a situation that probably changes the measure of each other anyhow because the Emporer channels his hate and anger in the fight and therefore doesn't let any misgivings enter. He probably fights like an indomitable machine until checked.

One thing that annoyed me about the movie though, is that it didn't show how Palpy got the upper hand on Yoda when he was flinging pods at him. They were fighting on the same pod until they return from the other duel going on between Obi and Ani. Then all of a sudden Yoda is further below him, and dodging all the pods.

In any event, my take on the saber fights between them are this. Yoda and Palpy are too evenly matched for whatever reason. Maybe the Artoo form Yoda uses is not effective in penetrating the Emporers style, and conversely, I do believe the Artoo form is one of the better defense mitigation forms because you are bouncing around so much you are harder to hit. So saber fight between them is a useless point.

However, the force is the big kahuna here, and the last major battle between them is again very telling to me...

Once Yoda is face to face with him again and Palpy blasts him with the lightning, Yoda demonstrates his ability to counter these blasts. How he does it exactly I would like to know, because I don't think it's truly explained...but again my take would be this:

Yoda catches the lightning in a way that doesn't exactly deflect it....doesn't just absorb it and dissipate it...but seems to hold it in abeyance. It seems like the energy is being almost "stored" in a type of power void that can be expanded to a point where it can be "released" as a weapon. This seems to be indicated by the fact that when Yoda is holding his own and faces him with that look in his eyes that says "You miserable little fucker...I am so going to shove this lightning up your ass"..the Emporer's face changes..he starts opening his mouth wide and makes some noises like "oh....ohhhHHHH" and to me it looks like he is feeling a buildup of a return volley that is starting to freak him out. When it happens, it looks like the blast is aimed at him and quite effectively smacks him, but Yoda also gets the kickback effect and IMO is pushed a little further because of his size which in this case is highly unfortunate as it indirectly leads him to fall from the great height. Effectively ruining his chances at finishing the fight.

The real question is this. Forcewise Yoda looks to be easily a potential match for Palpitine, but HOW exactly could he have used his power to kill him? Lightning does, force blasts alone have never demonstrated this in the movies. If he could have continued the battle with Palpy, what direct applications of the force could he have used to kill him? He DID say "Destroy the Sith, we MUST", so he definitely did not intend to take him prisoner.

Phew. That was longer than I expected. Thoughts anyone?
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Post by Noble Ire »

The real question is this. Forcewise Yoda looks to be easily a potential match for Palpitine, but HOW exactly could he have used his power to kill him? Lightning does, force blasts alone have never demonstrated this in the movies. If he could have continued the battle with Palpy, what direct applications of the force could he have used to kill him? He DID say "Destroy the Sith, we MUST", so he definitely did not intend to take him prisoner.
The KE imparted by some of the more powerful force blast could certainly kill someone, even weakened Palpatine. Barring that, Yoda could have dropped something on him, or knocked down his guard long enough to put his lightsaber to use. If Yoda had the opportunity, there are plenty of ways he could kill someone.
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Re: "If so powerful you are, why leave?"

Post by NecronLord »

Justforfun000 wrote:I think he panicked a little and thought he might have been a little too arrogant HIMSELF.
This is the man who used himself as bait in a trap. He is too arrogant for his own good. What if Obi-Wan had showed up at the same time? He'd be proper fucked.
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Post by LaserRifleofDoom »

What would have happened if they'd both taken care of Palpatine? He hadn't really taught Anikan any Sith knowledge, they could have effectively whiped out a vast majority of Sith knowledge in one strike. Even if Anikan escaped and went into hiding, he would not be able to do very much. I have a feeling that with Palpatine dead, the Jedi/senate would be able to regain control of the Clone armies.
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Post by Kurgan »

Good point. I mean, yeah Anakin has command of some clone troops, but he doesn't have command of the entire army like (we assume) Palpatine does. Killing him would have tossed a huge monkey wrench into the plans of the Sith! And even if one of them (Yoda or Obi-Wan) had survived to fight Anakin, well, we know how that could have gone (they are both at least a match for Anakin, and Yoda is probably stronger, and has less emotional investment in not killing him).
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Post by Solauren »

I have to wonder how the fight would have gone had it not moved intot the well of the senate with all the ammo for Palpatine to toss
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Post by Molyneux »

Solauren wrote:I have to wonder how the fight would have gone had it not moved intot the well of the senate with all the ammo for Palpatine to toss
Or alternatively, if Yoda had been able to get a bit of a better grip. As far as I could tell, the only reason he lost the battle was that his fingers were too short for him to grab the railing (and thus he fell); kinda makes you wonder why there's no such thing as "Force Grip"...
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Post by Sidewinder »

Solauren wrote:I have to wonder how the fight would have gone had it not moved intot the well of the senate with all the ammo for Palpatine to toss
It was ammo for Yoda to toss, too. The fact that he didn't use it as well as Palpatine suggests that he's not as powerful in the Force as Palpatine.
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Post by Waddles McGee »

Sidewinder wrote:
Solauren wrote:I have to wonder how the fight would have gone had it not moved intot the well of the senate with all the ammo for Palpatine to toss
It was ammo for Yoda to toss, too. The fact that he didn't use it as well as Palpatine suggests that he's not as powerful in the Force as Palpatine.
I think it indicates Yoda just fights differently.
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Post by Noble Ire »

Molyneux wrote:
Solauren wrote:I have to wonder how the fight would have gone had it not moved intot the well of the senate with all the ammo for Palpatine to toss
Or alternatively, if Yoda had been able to get a bit of a better grip. As far as I could tell, the only reason he lost the battle was that his fingers were too short for him to grab the railing (and thus he fell); kinda makes you wonder why there's no such thing as "Force Grip"...
Why is it that people always think that Jedi have the ability to be forever concious of what exactly they could and should do, and forever have every Force power ever exhibited at their finger tips, even when they've just been knocked ten stories down and were just in a very draining duel?
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Post by Molyneux »

Noble Ire wrote:
Molyneux wrote:
Solauren wrote:I have to wonder how the fight would have gone had it not moved intot the well of the senate with all the ammo for Palpatine to toss
Or alternatively, if Yoda had been able to get a bit of a better grip. As far as I could tell, the only reason he lost the battle was that his fingers were too short for him to grab the railing (and thus he fell); kinda makes you wonder why there's no such thing as "Force Grip"...
Why is it that people always think that Jedi have the ability to be forever concious of what exactly they could and should do, and forever have every Force power ever exhibited at their finger tips, even when they've just been knocked ten stories down and were just in a very draining duel?
Because a) it's Yoda, and b) unless my memory fails me, he was clinigng to that surface for a good several seconds before he slipped off.
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Post by Noble Ire »

Because a) it's Yoda, and b) unless my memory fails me, he was clinigng to that surface for a good several seconds before he slipped off.
Yoda obviously not all powerful, but I will admit that it might have been feazible for him to Force grip his way up, if he'd wanted to. Doesn't the novelization indicate that Yoda was losing ground against Palpatine during the fight? If so, even if he could have continued after the fall, the Sith had the "high ground" (and had not just fallen a dozen stories) at that point, which would have skewed the rest of the fight in his favor. I think Yoda decided at that point that the battle was lost, and moved to escape rather than lever himself up.
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Post by NecronLord »

Noble Ire wrote:Why is it that people always think that Jedi have the ability to be forever concious of what exactly they could and should do, and forever have every Force power ever exhibited at their finger tips, even when they've just been knocked ten stories down and were just in a very draining duel?
Never mind that. Force telekinesis (generally) doesn't conserve momentum. Qui-Gon doesn't go flying back when he pushes a droid over does he? Obi-Wan doesn't get shot back like the human cannonball when he pushes Grievous into the air. Clinging on wouldn't do anything, because there is no link of momentum between the target and the jedi using the force. He could crush that railing with telekinesis, and still not be anchored to it.
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Post by Kurgan »

Molyneux wrote:
Solauren wrote:I have to wonder how the fight would have gone had it not moved intot the well of the senate with all the ammo for Palpatine to toss
Or alternatively, if Yoda had been able to get a bit of a better grip. As far as I could tell, the only reason he lost the battle was that his fingers were too short for him to grab the railing (and thus he fell); kinda makes you wonder why there's no such thing as "Force Grip"...
He should have let Obi-Wan teach him that trick he learned against Darth Maul!

(also, watch Obi-Wan's hands in the scene where Grievious tosses him off that platform, wow!)
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Post by Kurgan »

Noble Ire wrote:
Molyneux wrote:
Solauren wrote:I have to wonder how the fight would have gone had it not moved intot the well of the senate with all the ammo for Palpatine to toss
Or alternatively, if Yoda had been able to get a bit of a better grip. As far as I could tell, the only reason he lost the battle was that his fingers were too short for him to grab the railing (and thus he fell); kinda makes you wonder why there's no such thing as "Force Grip"...
Why is it that people always think that Jedi have the ability to be forever concious of what exactly they could and should do, and forever have every Force power ever exhibited at their finger tips, even when they've just been knocked ten stories down and were just in a very draining duel?
It's because people are sensitive to these kinds of things from reading comic books and super hero cartoons. Super heroes often "forget" to use their powers in situations that would help them, due to the dictates of the plot. See: Superman.

Rather than assuming they couldn't use this power, we're assuming they just forgot. In a life or death situation. Why not just argue "Yoda ran out of Force Mana?" :lol:

Anyway, we might just as easily assume that his opponent was drained as well, and with so much riding on his fight, why not go for a second round? I mean, besides the fact that the plot dictates that neither of them are allowed to die.
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Post by NecronLord »

Kurgan wrote:Why not just argue "Yoda ran out of Force Mana?" :lol:
Why not? They can't exert high levels of continous force without exaustion, this can be clearly seen in ESB.
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Post by Justforfun000 »

It was ammo for Yoda to toss, too. The fact that he didn't use it as well as Palpatine suggests that he's not as powerful in the Force as Palpatine.
ehhhh...Not sure if it can be that simple...Capability is completely different from choice of expression.

One thing that definitely hinders the Jedi as far as philosophy goes, is the insistence that (strong emotion = passion). is automatically "bad". From a perspective other than Buhddists really..

Taken from that understanding, it's reasonable to suggest that Anakin was a serious albatross from the get go. He wasn't even CLOSE to turning his emotional attachments into indifference.
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Post by The Silence and I »

I definately agree with most of your analysis of the fight, it is good to see someone else who thinks Yoda may have been on par or there abouts with Palps.

As for the whole Force Grip thing, either there is no such power or Yoda didn't recall it in time (or he could have never learned it, but that is unlikely in his case) because he most definately did not throw in the towel--if he could have held on longer he would have. Note the finger nails in the paint bit if you really think he decided to give up and let go...

I didn't read the novel but if it did in fact suggest Yoda was losing the fight then I take issue with it (again...) because the movie to me suggested close parity. The over all impression I had was Palps was more flashy with his power but whenever it came to a direct confrontation Yoda had the winning hand--I would suggest Yoda was more powerful, he just lacked the kind of offense Palps had access to. One other thing I noticed in the office: when Yoda gets up and shoves the Emperor across his office it isn't immediate--Yoda shoves with his arm, the sound effect goes off, and Palpatine appears to resist for a split second before flying off into his chair. What this tells me--your milage may vary--is Palpatine was ready for Yoda's return (possibly expecting the old teacher to be weak) but was unable to counter the attack. Yoda's push overpowered Palpatine's block and continued to hit him, essentially. Again something similar happened with the lightning. I firmly believe Yoda lost only because he was pushed too far by the kick back and landed in a pickle of a spot.
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Post by Kurgan »

NecronLord wrote:
Kurgan wrote:Why not just argue "Yoda ran out of Force Mana?" :lol:
Why not? They can't exert high levels of continous force without exaustion, this can be clearly seen in ESB.
Sorry, can you explain how ESB demonstrates this? The ROTS novel supports this theory, but I wasn't sure how this movie did...
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

I have thought that in the movie {the book is somewhat different} Yoda is at a tactical disadvantage, no more, due to his size and reach and the nature of the 'arena'. Palpy just has to fight him off from a firm base and use his reach. Yoda has to activly try and get inside that reach without falling off the platform.
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Post by Kurgan »

I mean, why couldn't Yoda have used the trick Obi-Wan used to pull himself out of that pit in TPM? Obi had both hands, true, but he was merely a Padawan. This is Yoda! Plus Yoda is lighter than Obi-Wan...
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Post by Noble Ire »

Kurgan wrote:I mean, why couldn't Yoda have used the trick Obi-Wan used to pull himself out of that pit in TPM? Obi had both hands, true, but he was merely a Padawan. This is Yoda! Plus Yoda is lighter than Obi-Wan...
Again, Yoda may have realized or thought he was losing the battle, simply felt the approach of troops, who did in fact appear by Palpatine as soon as Yoda fled.
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Re: "If so powerful you are, why leave?"

Post by Dooey Jo »

Justforfun000 wrote:The real question is this. Forcewise Yoda looks to be easily a potential match for Palpitine, but HOW exactly could he have used his power to kill him?
Here's how:
He Force-shoves Palpatine into his chair and immediately frog-jumps after him, igniting his little green lightsabre while in the air and then does the downthrust through Palpy's evil ass!

But he doesn't do that, he just stands there like a silly person, waiting for Palpatine to get up. Great warrior, my ass he is :P
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Post by NecronLord »

Kurgan wrote:Sorry, can you explain how ESB demonstrates this? The ROTS novel supports this theory, but I wasn't sure how this movie did...
Yoda shrinking down, looking frail and breathing heavily, then walks off.

Same with AotC. In fact, after every time Yoda exerts himself heavily, he (rightfully) seems exhausted on screen.
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NecronLord wrote:
Noble Ire wrote:Why is it that people always think that Jedi have the ability to be forever concious of what exactly they could and should do, and forever have every Force power ever exhibited at their finger tips, even when they've just been knocked ten stories down and were just in a very draining duel?
Never mind that. Force telekinesis (generally) doesn't conserve momentum. Qui-Gon doesn't go flying back when he pushes a droid over does he? Obi-Wan doesn't get shot back like the human cannonball when he pushes Grievous into the air. Clinging on wouldn't do anything, because there is no link of momentum between the target and the jedi using the force. He could crush that railing with telekinesis, and still not be anchored to it.
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