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It's pretty obvious that between ROTS and ANH, Vader undergone a distinct transformation in his character from "Whiny-Anakinish" Vader to Darth Vader, "da Man" that we all have come to known for a long time.

Most interestingly, I have observed the change in relationship between Vader & Palpatine.

In ROTS, Anakin/Vader & Palpatine were very close friends. They had a mentor-student relationship and Anakin/Vader had... dare I say a reverence for Palpatine? (At least this is what I got when watching the PT).

However, by the time of OT-era, Anakin/Vader is clearly plotting to overthrow the Emperor, evidently by his attempt to convert Luke and rule the galaxy as "Father & Son".

So why this change in relationship between Vader & Palpatine? I know it is the Sith way for the student to destroy the Master. But did anything happen in between? Perhaps those with extensive EU knowledge can shed some light...

However, by the time of OT-era, Anakin/Vader is clearly plotting to overthrow the Emperor, evidently by his attempt to convert Luke and rule the galaxy as "Father & Son".

He may have desired to overthrow Palpatine from the beginning. You might recall that in ROTS just before his battle with Obi-Wan, Anakin attempted to convince Padme to join him by saying they could overthrow the Emperor and rule the galaxy together, essentially the same argument he made to Luke over 20 years later.

Its probably just Anakins personality to be power hungry. It starts to exhibit itself in TPM but that could be written off because of a childs ambition. But as we get into AOTC and ROTS Anakin becomes a whiny little runt anytime something doesn't go his way or he can't do anything.

Note the "I will be the most powerful Jedi ever!" speech.

Anakin/Vader never struck me as power hungry. He always seemed to want order, stability, and to put an end to all the atrocities in the galaxy. The power for him was just a means to an end. Unfortunately for him, he was never taught the old sayings about "Absolute power", and what the road to Hell is paved with.

As for the change in the relationship, I think Vader recognized Palpatine's interest in Luke for what it was...someone who is stronger in the force to be Vader's replacement, just like he replaced Dooku. So, Vader tried to cut Palp off at the pass.

KhyronTheBackstabber wrote: As for the change in the relationship, I think Vader recognized Palpatine's interest in Luke for what it was...someone who is stronger in the force to be Vader's replacement, just like he replaced Dooku. So, Vader tried to cut Palp off at the pass.

Remember though, it was Vader that came up with the idea of converting Luke.

"If he could be turned, he could become a powerful ally"

Shadow WarChief wrote:

KhyronTheBackstabber wrote: As for the change in the relationship, I think Vader recognized Palpatine's interest in Luke for what it was...someone who is stronger in the force to be Vader's replacement, just like he replaced Dooku. So, Vader tried to cut Palp off at the pass.

Remember though, it was Vader that came up with the idea of converting Luke.

"If he could be turned, he could become a powerful ally"

Which too implied that Vader was likely plotting behind Palpatine's back shortly after he knew that his son existed. Why else converted Luke, if not to rule the galaxy as "Father & Son"?

It just strikes me as strange really. Palpatine was in Anakin's inner circle of friends (not that he had many in the first place). To list down Anakin's close friends would be - Padme, Obi-Wan and Palpatine.

*Cough* Might I point out that he set a bit of a precedent by killing the other two?

I was just speculating about this; I think, at some point, Anakin learned Palpatine engineered the entire clone war. Remember, at the end of RotS, all Anakin knows is Palpatine is a Sith Lord, not that he started all the unrest in the first place. So, I was thinking, at some point between RotS and ANH, Vader learns Palpatine was behind the entire war, and has a bit of a falling-out with him.

I'm not sure if my speculation is addressed at all in the EU, and I'm sure if it is, somebody will correct me.

Surlethe wrote:I was just speculating about this; I think, at some point, Anakin learned Palpatine engineered the entire clone war. Remember, at the end of RotS, all Anakin knows is Palpatine is a Sith Lord, not that he started all the unrest in the first place. So, I was thinking, at some point between RotS and ANH, Vader learns Palpatine was behind the entire war, and has a bit of a falling-out with him.

I'm not sure if my speculation is addressed at all in the EU, and I'm sure if it is, somebody will correct me.

He does in Dark Lord.

The big thing is they bring up in Dark Lord is that the Sith philosophy is a teacher and student, A teacher to rule, a student to covet. And no real falling out, given that in ROTS he wanted to kill the old bag.

Rommie2006 wrote:It's pretty obvious that between ROTS and ANH, Vader undergone a distinct transformation in his character from "Whiny-Anakinish" Vader to Darth Vader, "da Man" that we all have come to known for a long time.

Most interestingly, I have observed the change in relationship between Vader & Palpatine.

In ROTS, Anakin/Vader & Palpatine were very close friends. They had a mentor-student relationship and Anakin/Vader had... dare I say a reverence for Palpatine? (At least this is what I got when watching the PT).

However, by the time of OT-era, Anakin/Vader is clearly plotting to overthrow the Emperor, evidently by his attempt to convert Luke and rule the galaxy as "Father & Son".

So why this change in relationship between Vader & Palpatine? I know it is the Sith way for the student to destroy the Master. But did anything happen in between? Perhaps those with extensive EU knowledge can shed some light...

You did watch RoTS right?

Where he goes "I can kill him, we can take over!" Does not sound like a man who holds friendship highly anymore. As a Jedi Anakin was his friend, when he fully embraced becoming a Sith and saw Padme as a way to intiate the rule of two...he changed his tune faster then a whore and $1000.

So his RoTJ choice was not so out of the blue and if people think so, watch RoTS again.

Also his RoTJ choice is easy.

1. He was all but pacifying the Emperor in ESB...the novel states this practically. EU defends it, and honestly Lucas was eazsily steering this direction given he gave the seeds as far back as RoTS.

2. Here was the greatest Jedi since him, and his son to boot. And given Anakin's propensity to family, this was not an oppurtunity to let go.

It's already been stated; the difference between PT Vader's and OT Vader's views are a non-issue, because there isn't any difference. The OP somehow forgot about Vader's offer to Padme to kill Sidious and rule the galaxy as husband and wife.


Regarding Surlethe's postulation and Ghost Rider mentioning that it's detailed in Dark Lord.. I did wonder about that myself, whether Vader discovered the truth about the Clone Wars.
Dark Lord seems to be packed full of important facts, cool scenes with Vader being badass, and generally everyone here thinks it's a good book. I really have to read it

Cykeisme wrote:It's already been stated; the difference between PT Vader's and OT Vader's views are a non-issue, because there isn't any difference. The OP somehow forgot about Vader's offer to Padme to kill Sidious and rule the galaxy as husband and wife.


Regarding Surlethe's postulation and Ghost Rider mentioning that it's detailed in Dark Lord.. I did wonder about that myself, whether Vader discovered the truth about the Clone Wars.
Dark Lord seems to be packed full of important facts, cool scenes with Vader being badass, and generally everyone here thinks it's a good book. I really have to read it

It's a decent book that covers a few niggling issues. Particularly how does Anakin/Vader actually become Darth Vader and not whinier bitch in suit, how does Palpatine deflect the accusations and insure that Vader becomes a proper Sith.

Also it dealt with some bits like Clones disobeying Order 66 as well as Jedi completely getting the warning completely wrong as well as when Obi Wan finds out whether or not Anakin survived Mustafar.

IMHO the major difference between Vader in ROTS (both pre- and post-suit) and Vader in the OT is maturity.

Anakin and Vader in the PT act are niave about their powers and the results of their actions and whiny when they don't get what they want.

Darth Vader in the OT has had about 20 Years to think what his inpatience and impulsiveness caused so he isn't that impulsive (though if possible has even shorter temper then he had before) and used his powers to max effect rather then wasting them on needless displays of power.

Lord Revan wrote:IMHO the major difference between Vader in ROTS (both pre- and post-suit) and Vader in the OT is maturity.

Anakin and Vader in the PT act are niave about their powers and the results of their actions and whiny when they don't get what they want.

Darth Vader in the OT has had about 20 Years to think what his inpatience and impulsiveness caused so he isn't that impulsive (though if possible has even shorter temper then he had before) and used his powers to max effect rather then wasting them on needless displays of power.

Small detail: I wouldn't equate short temper with impulsiveness; just because somebody loses his temper doesn't mean he'll automatically act impulsively because of that. I would think that during the OT he still has a temper about as long as PT, but 20 years of training and conditioning have led him to immediately channel the anger into Dark Side force-boosts, as opposed to PT Anakin, who has Jedi conditioning against anger to inspire guilt to work through before he actually admits to himself he's angry.

Surlethe wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:IMHO the major difference between Vader in ROTS (both pre- and post-suit) and Vader in the OT is maturity.

Anakin and Vader in the PT act are niave about their powers and the results of their actions and whiny when they don't get what they want.

Darth Vader in the OT has had about 20 Years to think what his inpatience and impulsiveness caused so he isn't that impulsive (though if possible has even shorter temper then he had before) and used his powers to max effect rather then wasting them on needless displays of power.

Small detail: I wouldn't equate short temper with impulsiveness; just because somebody loses his temper doesn't mean he'll automatically act impulsively because of that. I would think that during the OT he still has a temper about as long as PT, but 20 years of training and conditioning have led him to immediately channel the anger into Dark Side force-boosts, as opposed to PT Anakin, who has Jedi conditioning against anger to inspire guilt to work through before he actually admits to himself he's angry.

when I was talking about Temper I was talking about Vader's habit of executing those who displease him, but exessive impulsive behavior of PT Anakin/Vader has mostly if not totally gone away.

Lord Revan wrote:when I was talking about Temper I was talking about Vader's habit of executing those who displease him, but exessive impulsive behavior of PT Anakin/Vader has mostly if not totally gone away.

My mistake. Still, he has twenty years of men saying "how high?" when he says "jump" to become a perfectionist regarding detailed execution of his orders.

I dont know if this means anything but: in the ROTS video game, there is an alternate ending were after Anakin kills Obi-wan he kills Palpatine

Zwinmar wrote:I dont know if this means anything but: in the ROTS video game, there is an alternate ending were after Anakin kills Obi-wan he kills Palpatine

Which is to appease people in wondering.

He tells Padme that they can take over. Like I said, you need look no further then the source itself. Hells, the RoTS novel goes into more detail about his plans for galatic domination and the death of one old geezer.

Ghost Rider wrote:

Zwinmar wrote:I dont know if this means anything but: in the ROTS video game, there is an alternate ending were after Anakin kills Obi-wan he kills Palpatine

Which is to appease people in wondering.

He tells Padme that they can take over. Like I said, you need look no further then the source itself. Hells, the RoTS novel goes into more detail about his plans for galatic domination and the death of one old geezer.

I heard somewhere pre-burnination Anakin would be quite capable of offing Palpatine: didn't George Lucas say Anakin would have been twice as powerful as Palpy, had he not been crisped?

Surlethe wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:

Zwinmar wrote:I dont know if this means anything but: in the ROTS video game, there is an alternate ending were after Anakin kills Obi-wan he kills Palpatine

Which is to appease people in wondering.

He tells Padme that they can take over. Like I said, you need look no further then the source itself. Hells, the RoTS novel goes into more detail about his plans for galatic domination and the death of one old geezer.

I heard somewhere pre-burnination Anakin would be quite capable of offing Palpatine: didn't George Lucas say Anakin would have been twice as powerful as Palpy, had he not been crisped?

He thinks of it, and he puts it into RoTS with Palpatine believing this train of thought.

Another bit is in Dark Lord, Palpatine still knows Anakin is just as bad ass crispy then he is non, just that he took such a blow to his ego and psyche, that he wasn't as confident as before.

"They are here. My son is with them."

"Are you sure?"

"I have felt him."

"Strange that I have not... I wonder if your feelings in this matter are clear?"

Sounds like there's been a bit of a wariness between them for awhile. As Palpatine gets on in years and doesn't get out much anymore it is only a matter of time before Vader starts gets ideas. And as surely as Vader was maneuvering Luke to take out Palpy, so too was Palpy trying to manipulate Luke against dear ol' dad:

"Now, use you hatred! Strike him down and take your father's place at my side!"

My observation of the PT/OT Vader has more to do with his student/Master relationship with Palpatine.

He was very defiant as a student with Obi Wan, and yet, 20 down the road, he's basically Palpy's bitch. Some where in there, Skywalker did some changing. I just can't see Jedi Anakin as subserviant to Obi as Sith Anakin was to Palpatine.

I don't think he was more subserviant as much as he just learned to better hide his feelings. Vader seems much less brash and impulsive in every area than Anakin, and that includes emotional control.

Zwinmar wrote:I dont know if this means anything but: in the ROTS video game, there is an alternate ending were after Anakin kills Obi-wan he kills Palpatine

That ending doesn't quite make sense. If Anakin had emerged from his duel with Obi-Wan victorious and undamaged, he would have at least waited awhile to try and kill Palps. Remember, his main reason for stopping Mace from killing him was because he believed Palpy had the power to save Padme and his kids. Certainly Anakin would've delayed any attempts at seizing the throne until after Padme had given birth.

Rommie2006 wrote:Most interestingly, I have observed the change in relationship between Vader & Palpatine.

In ROTS, Anakin/Vader & Palpatine were very close friends. They had a mentor-student relationship and Anakin/Vader had... dare I say a reverence for Palpatine? (At least this is what I got when watching the PT).

However, by the time of OT-era, Anakin/Vader is clearly plotting to overthrow the Emperor, evidently by his attempt to convert Luke and rule the galaxy as "Father & Son".

So why this change in relationship between Vader & Palpatine? I know it is the Sith way for the student to destroy the Master. But did anything happen in between? Perhaps those with extensive EU knowledge can shed some light...

Aside from the fact that has been pointed out, that Darth Vader in RotS wanted to defeat Palpatine, if Vader discovered that Palpatine had set up everything in those 20 years, it could certainly lead to a change in a point of view.

In RotS, he was ready to turn Palpatine in. But Mace didn't trust him. Anakin panicked because he feared he was losing his only opportunity to keep Padme alive. Of course, during his panic he killed Mace, and immediately asked "what have I done?" And after that, he felt he had no choice but to obey Palpatine if he wanted to keep Padme alive. After Padme died, though, the situation changed.

At some point, Vader likely figured that had he not joined Palpatine, Padme would be dead but at least Anakin wouldn't be mostly machine. As such, Palpatine would have meant even less to Anakin than he did when he offered to overthrow the Sith Lord so that he and Padme could rule the galaxy. But because of the Emperor's power, taking him on directly wouldn't necessarily be that good of an idea, Vader would have figured.

Also, while Vader said that the Jedi were evil from his point of view, he also knew that the Sith were evil. Vader wanted to end suffering, not cause it like Palpatine had. So overthrowing the Empire and starting his own rule, where people wouldn't have to suffer, would be the best course of action as he saw it.

Of course, we know that his view on things was distorted, but I'd expect that his reasoning followed those lines given what he had observed.

Surlethe wrote:I was just speculating about this; I think, at some point, Anakin learned Palpatine engineered the entire clone war. Remember, at the end of RotS, all Anakin knows is Palpatine is a Sith Lord, not that he started all the unrest in the first place. So, I was thinking, at some point between RotS and ANH, Vader learns Palpatine was behind the entire war, and has a bit of a falling-out with him.

I'm not sure if my speculation is addressed at all in the EU, and I'm sure if it is, somebody will correct me.

its pretty clear that Anakin should know that the Clone Wars was all a ruse. When Palpatine sends Anakin to Mustafar to destroy the Sepratists thats one clue right there. I dont know, miracuosly Palpatine knows where they are. And 2 when Anakin gets to Mustafar, Nute Gunray says that we had assurances from Lord Sidious that will be freed. thats 2. Anakin has to be one of the stupidest people if he didnt figure out there. To bad for the galaxy that Anakin already made the Clone Wars about the Empire vs Jedi.