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I was having a conversation with a friend about Star Wars and we got to talking about Yoda and his plans. My friend wanted to believe that Yoda would be working with the Rebellion, while I argued that Yoda probably didn't think the Rebels had much of a chance without Jedi. That, and if Yoda showed his head outside Dagobah, Palpatine would throw everything he had at him.

Which eventually led to a discussion about what were Yoda and Obi-wan's plans? Initially, it seemed as if they just wanted Luke and Leia to grow up normally, free of Vader and the Emperor, but Yoda eventually can moniter Luke from afar, so I'm assuming the Shroud has been lifted. So he not only can moniter (and dismiss him as a potential Jedi) Luke he can probably see the future again.

Why then did it seem, at the end, that Obi-wan and Yoda's plan was to train of Luke and send him to kill Vader? How is that a good idea at all, if that just leaves the Emperor to train a new apprentice (which he doesn't need by RotJ anyway)?

Seen the OT? It gives a pretty good idea what their plans where. I kid i kid.

Basically it's exactly as you say the Jedi Masters Yoda and Kenobi's job was to mould Luke into a weapon to destroy the Sith. Obiwans part was to watch over him and then when he became of age to open his eyes to the future. Many of Kenobi's "points of view" seem tailored to get Luke interested in his father and following his foot steps. Yoda's job was to then break and remake Luke into a weapon, his training on Dagobah(sp?) seems more pointed towards the physical and using the Force to enchance his combat skills and resist the Darkside.

Lord Pounder wrote:Seen the OT? It gives a pretty good idea what their plans where. I kid i kid.

Basically it's exactly as you say the Jedi Masters Yoda and Kenobi's job was to mould Luke into a weapon to destroy the Sith. Obiwans part was to watch over him and then when he became of age to open his eyes to the future. Many of Kenobi's "points of view" seem tailored to get Luke interested in his father and following his foot steps. Yoda's job was to then break and remake Luke into a weapon, his training on Dagobah(sp?) seems more pointed towards the physical and using the Force to enchance his combat skills and resist the Darkside.

Yeah, but after watching RotS, they had to know that Luke could never be a plausible threat to the Emperor. I mean if Yoda could not take him down, what chance did Luke have?

And was Yoda exaggerating a little about his Dark Side warnings? Obi-wan supposedly, IIRC, went slightly Dark Side in his fight with Darth Maul, and it did not control his destiny from that point on.

Crom wrote:

Lord Pounder wrote:Seen the OT? It gives a pretty good idea what their plans where. I kid i kid.

Basically it's exactly as you say the Jedi Masters Yoda and Kenobi's job was to mould Luke into a weapon to destroy the Sith. Obiwans part was to watch over him and then when he became of age to open his eyes to the future. Many of Kenobi's "points of view" seem tailored to get Luke interested in his father and following his foot steps. Yoda's job was to then break and remake Luke into a weapon, his training on Dagobah(sp?) seems more pointed towards the physical and using the Force to enchance his combat skills and resist the Darkside.

Yeah, but after watching RotS, they had to know that Luke could never be a plausible threat to the Emperor. I mean if Yoda could not take him down, what chance did Luke have?

And was Yoda exaggerating a little about his Dark Side warnings? Obi-wan supposedly, IIRC, went slightly Dark Side in his fight with Darth Maul, and it did not control his destiny from that point on.

Luke was expected to have a chance. In fact if he was fully trained both Obi Wan and Yoda did think he was able to kill Vader and possibly the Emperor. It was Luke's impetuous behavior that foiled that plan.

So by Jedi they did feel a bit fucked, and Luke had even strayed from the thought of killing Vader. Obi Wan even went as far as going "You have to...no one else can."

Crom wrote:And was Yoda exaggerating a little about his Dark Side warnings? Obi-wan supposedly, IIRC, went slightly Dark Side in his fight with Darth Maul, and it did not control his destiny from that point on.

Jedi in the time of the Old Republic had an extensive support system that could help rehabilitate them if they brushed against the Dark Side. Yoda was probably concerned that if Luke began tapping the Dark Side there would be no one who could get him back on track.

Crom wrote:Yeah, but after watching RotS, they had to know that Luke could never be a plausible threat to the Emperor. I mean if Yoda could not take him down, what chance did Luke have?

While quantification of Force ability is generally frowned upon, the Chosen One and his son are supposed to have greater power than Sidious and Yoda, aren't they?

Cykeisme wrote:

Crom wrote:Yeah, but after watching RotS, they had to know that Luke could never be a plausible threat to the Emperor. I mean if Yoda could not take him down, what chance did Luke have?

While quantification of Force ability is generally frowned upon, the Chosen One and his son are supposed to have greater power than Sidious and Yoda, aren't they?

More importantly, both Palpatine and Yoda believed as such. Just neither had the time as Palpatine or Yoda to refine their skill.

Crom wrote:

Lord Pounder wrote:Seen the OT? It gives a pretty good idea what their plans where. I kid i kid.

Basically it's exactly as you say the Jedi Masters Yoda and Kenobi's job was to mould Luke into a weapon to destroy the Sith. Obiwans part was to watch over him and then when he became of age to open his eyes to the future. Many of Kenobi's "points of view" seem tailored to get Luke interested in his father and following his foot steps. Yoda's job was to then break and remake Luke into a weapon, his training on Dagobah(sp?) seems more pointed towards the physical and using the Force to enchance his combat skills and resist the Darkside.

Yeah, but after watching RotS, they had to know that Luke could never be a plausible threat to the Emperor. I mean if Yoda could not take him down, what chance did Luke have?

And was Yoda exaggerating a little about his Dark Side warnings? Obi-wan supposedly, IIRC, went slightly Dark Side in his fight with Darth Maul, and it did not control his destiny from that point on.

After fighting Sideous in the Senate Rotunda, Yoda came to the conclusion that the Jedi were indeed stagnate and the Sith have had a thousand years to evolve their powers in the Force. (as I recall from the novel). Yoda sending Luke and Leia away to live a 'normal' childhood instead of a rigorous training schedual might be an indication that he is indeed trying to act on his epiphany.

Instead of installing that standard Jedi dogma into them from their early years, Yoda might be thinking that a 'normal' life for their formative years might actually strengthen them, then proceed with the training of Jedi Arts when they're a bit older.

The result seemed to have worked, though I'm sure not quiet how Yoda thought it would. Luke wasn't brain washed with the whole 'non attachment' thing. In fact, his attachments were what motivated him and got him past quite a bit of trouble. Leia and Chewie bailing his ass out at Bespin and such. It was his attachment to his friends and to the Rebellion that made him finally strike out at the Emperor, making Vader respond, setting up their confrontation and giving Vader another chance at his 'choice'.

Basically, I guess, is that if Yoda did the standard Jedi training, Luke would have had to have no attachment to Vader, and accept his loss to the Dark side. He would never have tried to save him, and Vader would not have the 'conflict' to force him to make a choice between his son and the status quo.

I think part of the idea of sending Luke to live with a real family, Obi-wan only watching over him from a distance, was to ultimately create a Jedi who would be able to understand what draws to the dark side, and reject it, to become the instrument of the Sith's destruction. However, you probably shouldn't interpret there being a 'master plan' that Obi-Wan and Yoda have in mind. Although they did realize that traditional Jedi training would not work, which is why they elected to send the twins to families, they also (or at least Yoda) seemed to believe that the Force would bring the two young prospective Jedi to them at the right time.

Although, Yoda in Empire Strikes Back seems to contradict the novelization of RoTS a bit; he said that Luke was 'too old to be trained', unless he was merely testing Luke's resolve.

Guardsman Bass wrote:Although, Yoda in Empire Strikes Back seems to contradict the novelization of RoTS a bit; he said that Luke was 'too old to be trained', unless he was merely testing Luke's resolve.

There are two other possibilities.

One is that Yoda is merely saying it out of frustration after seeing just how unteachable a state Luke is in.
The second is that Yoda changed his mind.

Most likely it's reverse psychology on Luke, though.

Cykeisme wrote:

Guardsman Bass wrote:Although, Yoda in Empire Strikes Back seems to contradict the novelization of RoTS a bit; he said that Luke was 'too old to be trained', unless he was merely testing Luke's resolve.

There are two other possibilities.

One is that Yoda is merely saying it out of frustration after seeing just how unteachable a state Luke is in.
The second is that Yoda changed his mind.

Most likely it's reverse psychology on Luke, though.

There one more possibility I can think of. It's possible that Obi-Wan was supposed to wait until the right time, then take Luke to train with Yoda on Dagobah. Under this idea, it would've been the Death Star attack on Alderaan that screwed up the timing, since Obi-Wan was killed and Luke went off with the Rebellion for a couple years with only the tiny scraps of training before being told to train with Yoda. This extra few years as a partially-trained Jedi may have been what made Yoda reluctant to train him.

Hmm, good point. That's possibility is perhaps the most probable. The events of A New Hope threw a spanner into the two Jedi Masters' plans. Good thing it all turned out well in the end, though.

Maybe they hoped that, if they sent Luke to face Vader(Vader was always the target, not the Emporer), even if Luke couldn't take him, things could go more like Vader planned, they coup Sidious and take over the Empire. While this isn't a perfect solution, but definately the lesser of two evils, seeing as how Anakin doesn't have any of the specist, genocidal, or power hunger quirks that Sidious have. His rule over the Empire isn't going to be utopic, but his goals are more doing what he thinks is right by any means neccissary. Forcing the galaxy into order.

Anarchist Bunny wrote:Maybe they hoped that, if they sent Luke to face Vader(Vader was always the target, not the Emporer), even if Luke couldn't take him, things could go more like Vader planned, they coup Sidious and take over the Empire. While this isn't a perfect solution, but definately the lesser of two evils, seeing as how Anakin doesn't have any of the specist, genocidal, or power hunger quirks that Sidious have. His rule over the Empire isn't going to be utopic, but his goals are more doing what he thinks is right by any means neccissary. Forcing the galaxy into order.

Anakin not power hungry? Maybe you missed the parts where he offers his wife and then his son a partnership in overthrowing Palpatine, or how about him throwing a tantrum when he's denied the rank of Master on the Jedi Council.

Lord Pounder wrote:

Anarchist Bunny wrote:Maybe they hoped that, if they sent Luke to face Vader(Vader was always the target, not the Emporer), even if Luke couldn't take him, things could go more like Vader planned, they coup Sidious and take over the Empire. While this isn't a perfect solution, but definately the lesser of two evils, seeing as how Anakin doesn't have any of the specist, genocidal, or power hunger quirks that Sidious have. His rule over the Empire isn't going to be utopic, but his goals are more doing what he thinks is right by any means neccissary. Forcing the galaxy into order.

Anakin not power hungry? Maybe you missed the parts where he offers his wife and then his son a partnership in overthrowing Palpatine, or how about him throwing a tantrum when he's denied the rank of Master on the Jedi Council.

I meant as power hungry as Sidious. He doesn't want that for its power, he wants the power to do something with it.

Anarchist Bunny wrote:Maybe they hoped that, if they sent Luke to face Vader(Vader was always the target, not the Emporer), even if Luke couldn't take him, things could go more like Vader planned, they coup Sidious and take over the Empire. While this isn't a perfect solution, but definately the lesser of two evils, seeing as how Anakin doesn't have any of the specist, genocidal, or power hunger quirks that Sidious have. His rule over the Empire isn't going to be utopic, but his goals are more doing what he thinks is right by any means neccissary. Forcing the galaxy into order.

Vader didn't seem to hesitate in trying to kill Luke in RotJ, and if we include the RoTJ novelization into it, he was actually getting furious over the thought that his son might best him.

Plus, remember the end of Revenge of the Sith; both Obi-Wan and Yoda consider Anakin to be "lost."

Anarchist Bunny wrote:Maybe they hoped that, if they sent Luke to face Vader(Vader was always the target, not the Emporer), even if Luke couldn't take him, things could go more like Vader planned, they coup Sidious and take over the Empire. While this isn't a perfect solution, but definately the lesser of two evils, seeing as how Anakin doesn't have any of the specist, genocidal, or power hunger quirks that Sidious have. His rule over the Empire isn't going to be utopic, but his goals are more doing what he thinks is right by any means neccissary. Forcing the galaxy into order.

I don't think that Yoda or Obi-Wan would even think about that. They are from the old school of Jedi, where the only sulution to the Empire is it's destruction. I believe that if Luke had joined Vader and had overthrown the Emperor, Yoda and Obi-Wan would have tried to train Leia to take out both Luke and Vader.

One thing Yoda did right was to provide Luke extra training in avoiding the Darkside. Obi-wan did his best to ignore Anakins fall. Obi-wanss blind eye to the relationship with Padame and not slapping him down after his temper tantrums are what started Anakin on his path.

I think that it is pretty heavily implied at the end of RotS novelisation that Yoda and Obi-Wan didn't really have a plan, be it master or B. The whole 'trusting in the living Force' line sort of read to me 'shit will happen when they happen'.

Anyone else get that vibe?

Anyone else get that vibe?

Sure did. I think that after their mano'a'mano with Sidious/Vader failed they were out of ideas and went with a 'lets see what happens' attitude.

Obi-wanss blind eye to the relationship with Padame and not slapping him down after his temper tantrums are what started Anakin on his path.

I like to think that Yoda telling Obi-Wan not to train Luke from the start was like him saying "You stuffed up royally the first time, what makes you think you can do better?"

There was no master plan. There also wasn't a good; well written script, either.

Robo Jesus wrote:There was no master plan. There also wasn't a good; well written script, either.

Thank you for that alarmingly relevant and thought provoking assessment. What, pray tell, would you have prefered happen?

But yes, there was no master plan. The point was to destroy the Sith before their rule over the galaxy could fully take hold, an effort, had it succeeded, that might have preserved, at least in some form, the old Jedi Order, and perhaps the Old Republic itself. However, I don't doubt niether Yoda nor Obi-Wan had any idea of how this would be accomplished. When the assassinations failed, the masters were simply forced into hiding, grasping at the last straws (the twins.)

Come on! It was easy enough to understand they raid the Temple get it back and then go down with the Sith there is no dark hidden meaning to that!

Please no THREAD NECROMANCY.