StarDestroyer.Net BBS

While Vader is being put into the suit in RotS, it can be clearly seen that many of his burn etc, have not been properly healed. His face and limbs can be seen red with black crap covering them.

After thinking I've come up with two reasons why:

1. It was imperitive that he get into the suit as quickly as possible to save his life.
2. Palps ordered that they not be properly treated so that the residual pain, especially I'm thinking at the joints between artificial and real limbs, would enable Vader to call upon the darkside easier.

I don't really think that 1. is plausable as once he had the respirator (and mask) installed he should have been fine to have treatment done on his limbs.

Opinions anyone?

They were probably just installing the limbs quickly before the nerve endings died (which, with my minimal amount of biological knowledge, is what I assume happens when a limb is severed.)

I haven't seen the movie for awhile, but IIRC, his face was actually cleaned up by the time the whole suit was on and they were putting the helmet on. Sure, it was still burned, but that would heal.

I'm not sure about the second point. It's possible that such residual pain would instead hinder his concentration.

atg wrote:While Vader is being put into the suit in RotS, it can be clearly seen that many of his burn etc, have not been properly healed. His face and limbs can be seen red with black crap covering them.

After thinking I've come up with two reasons why:

1. It was imperitive that he get into the suit as quickly as possible to save his life.
2. Palps ordered that they not be properly treated so that the residual pain, especially I'm thinking at the joints between artificial and real limbs, would enable Vader to call upon the darkside easier.

I don't really think that 1. is plausable as once he had the respirator (and mask) installed he should have been fine to have treatment done on his limbs.

Opinions anyone?

I think #1 is plausible. The breathing mask that was on him during transit would have been only temporary. I'm pretty sure that there's someplace where his lungs are descibed as being completely burned out, and that the suit's main function is to take the place of his lungs (taking oxygen from the air and sending it through the bloostream to the body's vital organs and muscles). This would mean that cosmetic surgery would be skipped over in favor of quickly getting him his new limbs and getting him in the suit. Though I think it's a combination of both 1 and 2.

What did the book have to say about this subject? I would think it would have been more detailed. For example, perhaps it was all to get Vader into his suit so he could see Palapatine's new pet project. Then he could have been sent back to 'bed' where he healed up properly for his new equipment to work properly.

In Dark Lord it's said that did get additional treatment after ROTS but before the book started and and stuffyou see in ROTS was basically gone as fast as possible due to the seriousness of Vaders injuries (that for example explains why his face is more badly burnt in ROTS then ROTJ (large parts of his skin are synth skin (at least in the face)), also at least according to Vader the droids did quite a lousy job at rebuilding him.

Vader's injuries should have killed him, period. He was alive when Palpatine and the troops found him cause of his power in the Force.
They had to get him in the suit ASAP because Anakin couldn't keep himself alive forever.

Vader did get out of that suit after that- as Dark Lord notes, his body had to be regularly cleansed of necrotized flesh- I suspect this would've continued for some time after his injuries, until his body "settled down" into its new routine. He also worked with his medical droids in improving his suit over time, as he was initially not satisfied with it.

I highly doubt that they did a shoddy job on purpose just to help piss him off. Someone that strong in the Force and already so consumed by the Dark Side would need a better motivation than petty physical pain.

Here's a hypothesis: Sidious wanted him up, walking and breathing ASAP so he didn't lose the will to live. If he was languishing in a med ward or floating in a bacta tank when he learned of Padme's death, he might have given up. With his suit what would have been suicidal dispair became homicidal rage. Although he was a shadow of his former self, he's hardly impotent.

Follow-up procedures would have been done later. He doesn't need the armor inside that chamber of his, for whatever reason.

I figured it was because he was just going to use all that uber force healing stuff to take care of the burns.

Darth Raptor wrote:I highly doubt that they did a shoddy job on purpose just to help piss him off. Someone that strong in the Force and already so consumed by the Dark Side would need a better motivation than petty physical pain.

Here's a hypothesis: Sidious wanted him up, walking and breathing ASAP so he didn't lose the will to live. If he was languishing in a med ward or floating in a bacta tank when he learned of Padme's death, he might have given up. With his suit what would have been suicidal dispair became homicidal rage. Although he was a shadow of his former self, he's hardly impotent.

Follow-up procedures would have been done later. He doesn't need the armor inside that chamber of his, for whatever reason.

Bacta while powerfull can do only that much, it could be possible that dumping Vader into a bacta tank wouldn't have helped him stay alive (one of the Med Droids has several containers of some red/orange fluid that could be bacta).

Darth Raptor wrote:I highly doubt that they did a shoddy job on purpose just to help piss him off. Someone that strong in the Force and already so consumed by the Dark Side would need a better motivation than petty physical pain.

Vader's idea that the job was shoddy was very much in the context of his great anger at being crippled. Where Anakin Skywalker had dash and grace, Vader was by comparison a lumbering brute. One of the big themes of Dark Lord is Vader getting over this and becoming as we know him to be. There were certainly areas where improvement was required, but Vader throwing unreasonable temper tantrums was also part of it.

Here's a hypothesis: Sidious wanted him up, walking and breathing ASAP so he didn't lose the will to live. If he was languishing in a med ward or floating in a bacta tank when he learned of Padme's death, he might have given up. With his suit what would have been suicidal dispair became homicidal rage. Although he was a shadow of his former self, he's hardly impotent.

In terms of how he used to look, move, and fight, he is a shadow- but in terms of his power, he's just as dangerous as ever- his issue was psychological, not physical. Luminous beings ...

Vympel wrote:In terms of how he used to look, move, and fight, he is a shadow- but in terms of his power, he's just as dangerous as ever- his issue was psychological, not physical. Luminous beings ...

And even in the move/fight terms he became increasingly better over time, adapting to his suit's limitations (and most likely enhancing the suit to better fit his needs). He did beat the Jedi Master Dark Woman (it was noted in New Essential Guide to Characters) who was a lot more powerful adversary, despite her considerable age, than anyone in the Dark Lord. Also two comics show it that Vader could jump so fast that you couldn't even pull the trigger to kill him (one of those Empire comics in which a group of Falleens ambush him) but accidentally shot right below his foots (and in the comic, right into your best pal) and that he could move and fight like a demon even without a lightsabre, but with a double-bladed vibroblade against an opponent who was agile and not encumbured by heavy armour (Crimson Empire).

In short, Vader was just as deadly as Anakin (although I bet that he could never again aspire to be the poster hero like Anakin had be, at least not without his helmet on) and used the Force a lot more during the fights not only to enhance his movements, but to do some seriously nasty stuff to his opponents (like ripping off walls and ceilings and sending the pieces flying towards his opponent, witness ESB and Dark Lord). But Vader was not as agile as Anakin had been, as much as he would have liked - he could still be fast and could still use the Force to speed up his reflexes and reactions, but he had to adapt a new, more conservative fighting style, as noted in Dark Lord (although that fighting style did give one hell of a headache to his opponent even then, I wonder how deadly it had become later on).

Indeed- he also took full advantage of the resilience his artificial limbs and armor afforded him- he took glancing lightsabre hits, simply because it cost him nothing to do so. Against flesh, it'd be an instant disabling wound (Obi-Wan vs Dooku in AotC).

Lord Revan wrote:also at least according to Vader the droids did quite a lousy job at rebuilding him.

He does have some rather high standards though.

Mostly related to how dissatisfied he is with his condition- my mask is ugly, I can't see properly, whinge whinge whinge. He improves his suit where he can and gets over it.

By the end of Dark Lord I got the impression that he had perfected his suit, as Shryne and Starstone both are hit with the grace and agility Vader moves in, as opposed to the lumbering style he was forced to use in the beginning.

And even though it was interlaced with whining, I did enjoy Vader's overview of the suit.

I dont think he had perfected the suit as yet, more he had regained his control of the Force, especially the Dark Side. Their exchange on p.283 (and what Vader was doing just prior to that, to avoid spoilers ) makes this pretty clear

What is also clear, is that Sidious is one Grade-A , first -class bastard

i dont know, i read somewhere that throughout the Empire days that Vader had tried and tried to heal himself with the force, he got so far and then gave up. My opinion: the wounds are to badly inflicted. It could be connected to Padmè dying. "Theres nothing wrong with her she just gave up her will to live" its kinda for Anakin: he wants to heal himself but he might still want the scars to remind him how much an idiot he was

Tychu wrote:i dont know, i read somewhere that throughout the Empire days that Vader had tried and tried to heal himself with the force, he got so far and then gave up. My opinion: the wounds are to badly inflicted. It could be connected to Padmè dying. "Theres nothing wrong with her she just gave up her will to live" its kinda for Anakin: he wants to heal himself but he might still want the scars to remind him how much an idiot he was

Well, according to Shadows of the Empire he actually did try to use the Dark Side to heal himself. However, although the healing worked fine, his joy at suddenly being whole ruined his whole mood of rage and sorrow (and so the repairs failed). According to that, he actually really wanted to just be able to breathe through his own regrown lungs, but he couldn't since he hadn't fully embraced the Dark Side.

atg wrote:While Vader is being put into the suit in RotS, it can be clearly seen that many of his burn etc, have not been properly healed. His face and limbs can be seen red with black crap covering them.

After thinking I've come up with two reasons why:

1. It was imperitive that he get into the suit as quickly as possible to save his life.
2. Palps ordered that they not be properly treated so that the residual pain, especially I'm thinking at the joints between artificial and real limbs, would enable Vader to call upon the darkside easier.

I don't really think that 1. is plausable as once he had the respirator (and mask) installed he should have been fine to have treatment done on his limbs.

Opinions anyone?

There's really no reasonable way to rationalize it, IMHO. It all comes down to dramatic pacing.

What really honks me off about that whole sequence is that no apparent effort is made to treat Anakin's burns from the moment he was picked up from Mustafar. When they got him back to Coruscant and were transporting his capsule from the shuttle to the medical center they even had the top of the capsule open, exposing him to the rain. Hello? From what I recall, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but the biggest killer from burn wounds is infection. The first priority in treating a burn wound is cleaning it and protecting it from foreign particles, isn't it? Yet there's no sign that any of that had been done in transit between Mustafar and Coruscant so unless the emperor's shuttle is able to jump halfway across the galaxy in just a few minutes then Anakin should have developed a pretty serious infection. Yeah, they could have given him anitbiotics of some sort, but still, wouldn't it have made more sense to at least clean him up and slap on some synthetic skin before they start grafting on the artificial limbs?

And during the whole procedure of adding his cybernetics he had no apparent assistance in breathing....weren't his lungs supposed to be severly damaged? The way it was presented in the novelization there was at least some implication that his conversion into a cyborg took some time, but because of the dramatic pacing of the film it made it look as if it took mere hours, at the most.

I'm sorry to rant, but that whole sequence gang raped my suspension of disbelief.

Kenoshi wrote:
What really honks me off about that whole sequence is that no apparent effort is made to treat Anakin's burns from the moment he was picked up from Mustafar. When they got him back to Coruscant and were transporting his capsule from the shuttle to the medical center they even had the top of the capsule open, exposing him to the rain. Hello? From what I recall, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but the biggest killer from burn wounds is infection.

yes, that would be correct.

The first priority in treating a burn wound is cleaning it and protecting it from foreign particles, isn't it?

That would also be correct........ however, Anakin injuries was so intensive that normally, nothing could be done already.

I mean, his entire body is already scarred and blistering. It shouldn't even be possible to move him without popping something and causing him to bleed to death. Hell, technically, his skin should already be melted off.

Yet there's no sign that any of that had been done in transit between Mustafar and Coruscant so unless the emperor's shuttle is able to jump halfway across the galaxy in just a few minutes then Anakin should have developed a pretty serious infection. Yeah, they could have given him anitbiotics of some sort, but still, wouldn't it have made more sense to at least clean him up and slap on some synthetic skin before they start grafting on the artificial limbs?

Without knowing what SW medical technology capabilities could be, grafting synethetic skin would actually be the worst idea. You would first need to allow the skin time to heal and regrow connective tissue and capillaries first, before a skin graft can be grafted successfully. But again, this is from our context, synthflesh may work entirely different from our ideas of a skin graft, although Han Solo complaint of itchiness from synthflesh suggest otherwise.

And during the whole procedure of adding his cybernetics he had no apparent assistance in breathing....weren't his lungs supposed to be severly damaged? The way it was presented in the novelization there was at least some implication that his conversion into a cyborg took some time, but because of the dramatic pacing of the film it made it look as if it took mere hours, at the most.

I'm sorry to rant, but that whole sequence gang raped my suspension of disbelief.

Didn't the novel state that there was artificial respiratory aid already? Perhaps at this point in time, his lungs had not become scarred yet, and was still allowing adequate perfusion due to force enhanced powers?

PainRack wrote: Didn't the novel state that there was artificial respiratory aid already? Perhaps at this point in time, his lungs had not become scarred yet, and was still allowing adequate perfusion due to force enhanced powers?

I wish I still had my copy on me...lent it to somebody. I think the novel didn't cover the process of Vader's transformation, it just cut to him waking up and realizing what had happened to him.

In any case, thanks for offering some insight on the whole burn treatment business.

Kenoshi wrote:

PainRack wrote: Didn't the novel state that there was artificial respiratory aid already? Perhaps at this point in time, his lungs had not become scarred yet, and was still allowing adequate perfusion due to force enhanced powers?

I wish I still had my copy on me...lent it to somebody. I think the novel didn't cover the process of Vader's transformation, it just cut to him waking up and realizing what had happened to him.

In any case, thanks for offering some insight on the whole burn treatment business.

No prob.... as it is, you just highlighted the fact that I forgot what burn treatment is supposed to cover.....

Thankfully, I believe that isn't a topic for my exams in 3 weeks time.

Lone_Prodigy wrote:

Tychu wrote:i dont know, i read somewhere that throughout the Empire days that Vader had tried and tried to heal himself with the force, he got so far and then gave up. My opinion: the wounds are to badly inflicted. It could be connected to Padmè dying. "Theres nothing wrong with her she just gave up her will to live" its kinda for Anakin: he wants to heal himself but he might still want the scars to remind him how much an idiot he was

Well, according to Shadows of the Empire he actually did try to use the Dark Side to heal himself. However, although the healing worked fine, his joy at suddenly being whole ruined his whole mood of rage and sorrow (and so the repairs failed). According to that, he actually really wanted to just be able to breathe through his own regrown lungs, but he couldn't since he hadn't fully embraced the Dark Side.

Note:
Vader himself believed that with time he could learn to heal himself (or to control his body's functions) so well that he could walk outside his pressure chambers without his body armour (this line of thought is recorded in Shadows of the Empire novel). It is unknown if it could have ever happened, but possible - Vader had already survived after getting all of his remaining limbs hacked off and then burned and left to die in the fume-filled air near a hot lava flow. Healing oneself could indeed be possible for him (especially since he planned to learn all he could about the dark side and the Sith arts from Palpatine - "to claim Palpatine's dark power for his own" - as evidenced in RotJ novelization) after he had spent more time learning about the higher mysteries of the Sith and surrendering himself more fully to the dark side (as Exar Kun had done - although it should be noted that the spirit of Freedon Nadd was there to empower Kun's dark side healing when the future Sith Lord pledged himself to the dark side, as evidenced in Tales of the Jedi).