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We know that one of the most potent abilties of the Force is the wide array of mental abilities including precog and telepathy that the Jedi and Sith have at their disposal. However throughout the films we have examples of the Force not being as forthcoming as it should with the abilities it doles out.

Here are several examples:

ANH

Vader is able to detect his old master who he has not seen in a generation yet cannot detect his own children (Leia and Later Luke) throughout this movie. Yet in ROTJ Vader can detect Luke who is presumably much better skilled at hiding his presence than the untrained Luke in ANH over a large distance, even better than the Emperor.

Does Force detection require some concrete knowldege of a connection? In ESB Vader can detect Luke fairly easily (in one instance over lightyears while watching a videoclip of Hoth) only after learning that Luke is his son. Sort of a weird limitation especially in light of Yoda and Obi Wan's concerns in ROTS that the Sith may be able to detect the children.


ANH

This point requires a presumption. That the mindprobe mentioned by Vader during his interrogation of Leia is a Force abilty. If the mindprobe is indeed a Force ability then why was he not able to detect Leia's connection to him (she remembered her mother according to ROTJ but that can always be chalked up to Bail's wife) and more importantly Vader is able to pluck things from Luke's mind in ROTJ ("Sister. SO you have a twin sister") without even being able to see Luke yet cannot pluck out the location of the plans from an untrained Leia in the same room under duress?


ESB

Always in motion is the future. Yoda cannot detect the fate of Luke's friends yet Palpatine can see the entire length and breadth of a Galactic War throughout the prequels and manipulates events from ESB onward to his advantage.

Some powerful ally you got there Yoda.


ESB


C'mon. Vader can detect Luke over planetary distances and suddenly when he needs that abilty most he 'thinks' Luke's on the Millenium Falcon? His 'mistake' allows Luke time to be trained.



ROTJ/Prequel Era

Palpatine is able to coordinate the destruction of the Jedi Order and the Fall of the Republic with near perfect precision through the use of his far seeing ability. He is able to out see such masters as Yoda, Mace Windu and the collective Jedi High Council.

YET

When the chips are down his far seeing fails him precisely when he needs it most - in regards to his hold over Anakin and Luke. He sees just far enough to get Luke on the DSII and place everything in position for his defeat at the hands of Anakin. As if the Force had manipulated the Sith and the Jedi - granting a single Sith lord the ability to see better than the Jedi and even cloud their vision yet pulls back just in time to see Palpatine fall.


ROTS

Anakin's precog, presumbaly better than Obi Wan's cannot tell him jumping at Obi Wan is a BAD idea at this point in the duel?


Prequel Era

Veil of the Darkside. One Sith Lord can dampen 10,000 Jedi including masters like Yoda and Mace Windu. The Jedi outnumbering the Sith cannot seem to do the same in reverse. Yoda in fact resorts to probing the darkside (AOTC) for answers.



These cherry picked examples are meant to provide evidence for the point that the Force somehow manipulates the Jedi and Sith, revealing knowledge that it needs them to use and withholding help precisely when the Force user needs it most.

Or are the Jedi and Sith only seeing what they want to see?

If you think I'm full of shit please discuss.

Stravo wrote:Always in motion is the future. Yoda cannot detect the fate of Luke's friends yet Palpatine can see the entire length and breadth of a Galactic War throughout the prequels and manipulates events from ESB onward to his advantage.

I'm planning on exploring this in my fanfic (I'm working on it!), actually, so I've been giving a lot of thought to foresight. An idea which appeals to me is that the Force has a major aspect which is similar to Dune-ish precog, so that the more one sees the future, the more certain it is. Yoda, I postulate, both because he doesn't want to attract Palpatine's attention, and very likely because of Jedi training against it (free will), doesn't want to force the future into a certain course; on the other hand, Palpatine has no such qualms against his quest for power. So, I hypothesize Palpatine has much greater foresight and thus much greater influence over the course of events because he has honed that skill for decades, and because he has no compunctions about forcing others to a certain course of action and suppressing free will.

A quick note: The mind probe is not a Force ability. It was shown in the 1979 comic strip "Gambler's World" to be a spherical device similar in appearance to the IT-O interrogator used by Darth Vader in A New Hope (it is only similar, however).

Publius wrote:A quick note: The mind probe is not a Force ability. It was shown in the 1979 comic strip "Gambler's World" to be a spherical device similar in appearance to the IT-O interrogator used by Darth Vader in A New Hope (it is only similar, however).

Which leads to a very intersting question. Can Jedi/Sith actually rip knowledge from people's minds? Throughout the prequels the Jedi have to investigate things but never get their knowledge from reading people's minds. Look at the scene in AOTC with Anakin/Obiwan and the Bounty Hunter woman. They have to ask her to tell them instead of taking it from her mind.

In fact it seems the only two times we see telepathy in use (AFAIK) is ESB Luke to Leia and ROTJ Vader to Luke. Seems that telepathy is extremely limited force ability.

Maybe this is something disputed in EU or novelisations, but could the 'prophecy' be a literal expression of the force's predisposition to naturally seek to find the balance spoken of? The availability of the various bits of information and the various limitations that you highlighted come as a result of the Force seeking to restore balance to itself - thus going with the 'partially controlling actions, partially obeying commands' line? It needs everyone else to do their bits, but is not adverse to selectively allowing certain things to be found out to get it's objectives completed? Or is that crap?

Stravo wrote:Which leads to a very intersting question. Can Jedi/Sith actually rip knowledge from people's minds? Throughout the prequels the Jedi have to investigate things but never get their knowledge from reading people's minds. Look at the scene in AOTC with Anakin/Obiwan and the Bounty Hunter woman. They have to ask her to tell them instead of taking it from her mind.

The Galactic Emperor and Mara Jade were able to communicate telepathically across interstellar distances, but this is likely due to the 'special relationship' between the two. In Return of the Jedi, Darth Vader notes that "the Emperor always knew the sense of what was in his heart; even if he didn't know the specifics," which seems a strong hint that Force telepathy is not consistent -- circumstances probably alter the effectiveness of the mind-reading (here, for example, the Emperor is able to read the title headings of Vader's thoughts, so to speak, but cannot read the text itself; subsequently Vader is able to read his son's thoughts by chapter-and-verse, despite not even being able to tell where he is).

Joorus C'Baoth takes the information he wants out of peoples heads in DarkForceRising.

About Vader sensing Luke in TESB, it might be that he knows Luke to be on Hoth, but not the exact square-kilometer. When the Falcon takes off Luke is still close enough to be mistakenly thought to be aboard (or Vader confused Luke with Leia). In ANH Obi-Wan might have shielded Luke and Leia didn't display force-powers or had any knowledge about her connection to Luke or Vader.

Stravo wrote:

Publius wrote:A quick note: The mind probe is not a Force ability. It was shown in the 1979 comic strip "Gambler's World" to be a spherical device similar in appearance to the IT-O interrogator used by Darth Vader in A New Hope (it is only similar, however).

Which leads to a very intersting question. Can Jedi/Sith actually rip knowledge from people's minds? Throughout the prequels the Jedi have to investigate things but never get their knowledge from reading people's minds. Look at the scene in AOTC with Anakin/Obiwan and the Bounty Hunter woman. They have to ask her to tell them instead of taking it from her mind.

Kyp Duron did it to Qwi Xux to get the information about how to fly and use the Starcrusher

I've always looked at detecting Force users as being like detecting radar: If they never use it, you're not likely to notice it. If you aren't looking you won't find it, either.

Leia didn't use the Force at all until (possibly) TESB when she receives telepathy from Luke at Bespin. So how would Vader know she had the Force before then?

Luke had barely scratched the surface of the Force when he first landed on the Death Star. Vader had never seen him before, wasn't looking for him (he didn't even know there was a Luke Skywalker) and Obi-Wan's aura, vibes or whatever drew Vader's attention. Even with his old enemy in the hangar he isn't sure. Later, when Luke is tapping into the Force during the Battle of Yavin Vader notices, but only when he's flying right behind Luke and focused on him.

By ROTJ, Vader has Luke's number and can tell immediately when his son is nearby and vice versa.

Think of it this way: The Force is like a pond. When someone taps into it or some other event happens, it's like a rock being thrown in. An astute observer can determine how big the splash was and where it came from. He can also tell whether he caused the ripple or not. In the age of the Jedi, with thousands of Jedi using the Force across the galaxy there are a lot of waves and splashes in the pond. So even when the Sith show up and start chucking rocks into the water, they are hard to detect. If they only use the Force sparingly (like Sidious) they can stay hidden.

Now after the Jedi are almost completely wiped out (forget EU wank and stick to the movies) there are two Jedi left. They make it a point not to display their use of the Force, probably out of fear of giving themselves away. At this point, that body of water should be still except when Sidious and Vader use the Force or some great disturbance occurs (like Alderaan). First Obi-Wan comes out of exile. In spite of his efforts to remain hidden, Vader becomes suspicious and orders the Falcon searched. Later, after Luke destroys the Death Star there is a huge disturbance that must have come from a Force user other than the Sith.

By the time TESB comes around, Vader (and most likely Sidious) are looking for Luke. Vader apparently switches his "radar" to passive and combined with the report from the probe droid, knows where Luke and the other Rebels are hiding. A good clue is that Vader is concentrating in the same pose on the bridge of his ship as he did in AOTC when he was on Padme's veranda, reaching out for signals from his mother.

Aside from immediate reflexes (ducking a gunshot, for example) Jedi precognition is like the visions the ghosts gave Ebenezer Scrooge in A Christmas Carol. The visions aren't set in stone and can be nullified by present actions or misinterpreted. Scrooge changes his ways and doesn't die a miserable old prick hated by everyone. The fable about the ancient king who consults a fortune-teller about his upcoming war and is told a great kingdom will fall if he fights, only to find out that kingdom was his own, is a perfect example of a misread prophesy.

It does seem that Force detection is based on the individual's presence in the Force. In ESB Leia uses the Force after being essentially forced into it by Luke sending thoughts to her. This could possibly be due to feeling a stronger connection to her in the Force than the rest of his friends. Although, he does have a connection to all of them based on his vision, but Leia is a Force user and his sister, making their connection naturally stronger, just like Luke to Vader.

Luke during ANH wasn't using any Force really until the very end when urged to by Obi Wan (not counting the training onboard the Falcon). Vader wouldn't have picked up anything when I imagine his senses would be so full of Obi Wan's presence. Finally at the end, when he is focused on Luke (before Luke utilizes any conscious Force) he can detect strength in the Force, and if Han hadn't shot at him, maybe even figure out that Luke is his son.

In ESB Vader knows Luke, and can detect his "impression in the Force," but actually due to Luke's lack of skill this impression is diffuse, it's not focused and still mostly sub-conscious Force usage on his part and most likely that is more difficult to detect. Later in ESB Luke is trained enough to leave a distinct impression in the Force and Vader can focus in on it enough to determine Luke is his son. By ROTJ, Luke is trained and despite most likely having learned to mask his presence, still leaves a distinct impression in the Force as being Anakin's son. Vader can focus on the connection between them, which now that it is firmly established between the two, neither can mask it. We know from EU fluff that siblings, and by extension blood relatives, can detect the connection between them in the Force.

ANH: OBI might have been using the Force to get Vader's attention as a "okay, we can't have him noticing Luke, and I know there going after Leia now, so..."
It's what I would have done.
Also, I have no doubt Obi-wan was actively using the Force on the Death Star to get to the tractor beam. I think an old man in a cloak kinda sticks out amongst all those black uniforms and white armor.

Then when Luke is using the Force, (more or less) in the trench, he senses that, his use of the Force, and possibly Obiwan going 'luke, trust me'

ESB: We have no proof he could sense Luke on Hoth. He was probably going by well, the military grade shield generators and Luke having a high rank and being an hero and all.

ROTJ: Jedi Knight and Sith Lord in close proximity, Luke thinking about Vader, Vader thinking about luke, and related.

So is the Force conscious and aware of itself and its surroundings? I've never seen a satisfactory answer to that question.

Surlethe wrote:So is the Force conscious and aware of itself and its surroundings? I've never seen a satisfactory answer to that question.

As we know, the Jedi 'ascend' when they die. Obi-wan, Yoda, and Anakin did and perhaps in their new plane of existence are others who rule over what is to be done with the force and how they could guide it for the mortal universe. All speculative of course.

Solauren wrote:ESB: We have no proof he could sense Luke on Hoth. He was probably going by well, the military grade shield generators and Luke having a high rank and being an hero and all.

Maybe not proof, but a good assumption. Right before Vader sees the report from Hoth, he is staring off into space in the same pose as when he was getting vibes from his mother. Shortly before that, Luke uses the Force to get his lightsabre back in the ice cave. He also gets a message from Obi-Wan, who uses the Force to tell him to go find Yoda. Now if Vader could pick up on the suffering of his mother when there are Jedi setting off tremors all over the galaxy, Luke's use of the Force and message from Ben would have been noticed by Vader much more clearly. Sidious must have also picked up on it, because he mentions a "great disturbance in the Force".

its possible that Ozzell was just an idiot as well. "They could be Smugglers" Since when would Smugglers have a massive military grade power generator? Piett in that scene seems to have been speaking in such a way in order to ensure that Vader could hear him giving the impression that he also feels that the planet was worth investigating. Even if it was not the base with Skywalker it was worth taking out. Vader statments do give the impression that he did feel his son after looking at the image.

Elfdart wrote:Sidious must have also picked up on it, because he mentions a "great disturbance in the Force".

By that reasoning, though, shouldn't Vader and Sidious have dropped a fleet on Dagobah? Or am I misunderstanding you, that they can't get location readings from feeling tremors in the Force?

Why couldn't the discovery of Luke presence on Hoth be precog?


Also, could the division into Light and Dark be important to the use of Force abilities? As in Light and Dark are engaged in a, well, war for the lack of a better word, and as such, depending on which side is ascendent, practioners of that side will gain in abilities.

According to the EU, Yoda's presence was shielded by the cave. It's possible that the cave was intense enough to shield Luke's presence at well.

Isolder74 wrote:its possible that Ozzell was just an idiot as well. "They could be Smugglers" Since when would Smugglers have a massive military grade power generator? Piett in that scene seems to have been speaking in such a way in order to ensure that Vader could hear him giving the impression that he also feels that the planet was worth investigating. Even if it was not the base with Skywalker it was worth taking out. Vader statments do give the impression that he did feel his son after looking at the image.

It was a confluence of things. Vader feels tremors in the Force. He may even see Luke surrounded by ice and snow or maybe he just detects his son freezing. Then he sees a report from an ice and snow planet that just happens to have a planetary defense shield. It all fell together in one Eureka! moment, which would explain why he says "And I'm sure Skywalker is with them."

Surlethe wrote:

Elfdart wrote:Sidious must have also picked up on it, because he mentions a "great disturbance in the Force".

By that reasoning, though, shouldn't Vader and Sidious have dropped a fleet on Dagobah? Or am I misunderstanding you, that they can't get location readings from feeling tremors in the Force?

Why would they go to Dagobah? Yoda didn't show any use of the Force until after Luke arrived. Even if he did, Luke mentioned "massive life readings" from the planet. If life creates the Force an abundance of it would be the perfect camouflage for a Force user. Vader would have picked up on his mother and son because they were in distress in barren wastes on Tattooine and Hoth -not deliberately hiding in a swamp teeming with life.

When it comes to locating Force users, it might not be an exact science (like hunting down radar). But a tremor in the Force, plus other information (spies, probe droids, rumors) would almost certainly give them away.

Does Force detection require some concrete knowldege of a connection? In ESB Vader can detect Luke fairly easily (in one instance over lightyears while watching a videoclip of Hoth) only after learning that Luke is his son. Sort of a weird limitation especially in light of Yoda and Obi Wan's concerns in ROTS that the Sith may be able to detect the children.

Before the events of ESB, Vader didn't believe that he had any children. When he learned that Padme had died, he probably assumed that the child she was bearing died with her. So if he ever sensed the presence of his child, he may have blocked it out, thinking it was an illusion of some sort. Basically I am agreeing with you that Force detection seems to require at least some sort of knowledge.

Vader is able to pluck things from Luke's mind in ROTJ ("Sister. SO you have a twin sister")

To be fair, at this point Luke was worrying about the fate of Leia due to the teasings of both Vader and the Emperor that the Rebels had walked into a trap. Since Luke was thinking about Leia at the time, and worrying about her, Vader was probably able to simply read his emotions.

When the chips are down his far seeing fails him precisely when he needs it most - in regards to his hold over Anakin and Luke. He sees just far enough to get Luke on the DSII and place everything in position for his defeat at the hands of Anakin. As if the Force had manipulated the Sith and the Jedi - granting a single Sith lord the ability to see better than the Jedi and even cloud their vision yet pulls back just in time to see Palpatine fall.

I believe Palpatine's failure in this regard was simply arrogance. One of the themes that is common in all of the movies is that emotion seems to have a clouding effect on the force. Palpatine's arrogance got in the way of his precog, which we can see in ROTS when Mace Windu comes damn close to ending his little scheme.

Anakin's precog, presumbaly better than Obi Wan's cannot tell him jumping at Obi Wan is a BAD idea at this point in the duel?

Arrogance. Recall Anakin saying to Obi after his warning something along the lines of, "You don't know how powerful I have become"?

Veil of the Darkside. One Sith Lord can dampen 10,000 Jedi including masters like Yoda and Mace Windu. The Jedi outnumbering the Sith cannot seem to do the same in reverse. Yoda in fact resorts to probing the darkside (AOTC) for answers.

Until ROTS, the Jedi didn't know who the Sith was. How could they "dampen" a Sith that they weren't sure existed?

Stravo wrote:ESB

Always in motion is the future. Yoda cannot detect the fate of Luke's friends yet Palpatine can see the entire length and breadth of a Galactic War throughout the prequels and manipulates events from ESB onward to his advantage.

Some powerful ally you got there Yoda.

ROTJ/Prequel Era

Palpatine is able to coordinate the destruction of the Jedi Order and the Fall of the Republic with near perfect precision through the use of his far seeing ability. He is able to out see such masters as Yoda, Mace Windu and the collective Jedi High Council.

YET

When the chips are down his far seeing fails him precisely when he needs it most - in regards to his hold over Anakin and Luke. He sees just far enough to get Luke on the DSII and place everything in position for his defeat at the hands of Anakin. As if the Force had manipulated the Sith and the Jedi - granting a single Sith lord the ability to see better than the Jedi and even cloud their vision yet pulls back just in time to see Palpatine fall.

Prequel Era

Veil of the Darkside. One Sith Lord can dampen 10,000 Jedi including masters like Yoda and Mace Windu. The Jedi outnumbering the Sith cannot seem to do the same in reverse. Yoda in fact resorts to probing the darkside (AOTC) for answers.

These three are linked, I believe. I've postulated this theory before, so forgive the chance to babble about it again.

The Force is looking to balance itself. Hence Anakin, Skywalker and Palpatine. For the corrupt Republic to start anew, it must be totally torn down. Thus the Galactic Empire. Palpatine could see in the Force far enough to ensure the Empire was indeed going to ahappen to wipe away all of the Old Republic. Vader was indeed the agent of balance and Luke the stimuli for that change from the Empire to the New Republic (supposedly brand new and uncorrupt).

What does this all mean in reguards to the quotes above? The Darkside Shroud made it so the Jedi couldn't see what was coing. Was it some sort of super Palpy-wank power? No, I say.

Rather, and I use a bit of a PT novel (that I didn't like but....) Shatterpoint. Palpatine, durring the build up to war in the PT, was a shatterpoint. When the Jedi saw into the Force and into the future, there was a dark presence there but since Palpatine basically held the 'go' button and could push it anytime he wished, and in varous ways, the Jedi couldn't see any one particular dark problem coming.

Palpatine being the center of ever changing events became invisible, because of all the events happening in the Force. To take Elfdart's analogy; Palpy was sitting in the middle of the pound and dropping in bolders. The Jedi could see all the splashes, yet couldn't see through them at who was causing it. Palpatine was imune due to circumstances and by the intent of the Force.

Fast forward 20 years, and the Empire was ready to fall and become the New Republic. Palpy is now a victim of the same type of effect that had allowed him to orchastrate his rise to power. Worse, the agent of that change, the Choosen One, was the guy he corrupted and thought rid of that particular problem. The problem is that Palpy didn't rid himself of it. He kept Anakin right next to him.

Palpy couldn't have seen the end either, rise of a Jedi threat and the potential of a new 'choosen one' he could corrupt blinded him to the end that was nearing. He was as guilty of the arrogance he accused the Jedi of having two decades ago.

Stravo wrote:These cherry picked examples are meant to provide evidence for the point that the Force somehow manipulates the Jedi and Sith, revealing knowledge that it needs them to use and withholding help precisely when the Force user needs it most.

It could fit with Qui-Gon's statement that the midichlorians "tell us the will of the Force," which implies a certain degree of consciousness on the Force's part.

Elfdart wrote:

Surlethe wrote:

Elfdart wrote:Sidious must have also picked up on it, because he mentions a "great disturbance in the Force".

By that reasoning, though, shouldn't Vader and Sidious have dropped a fleet on Dagobah? Or am I misunderstanding you, that they can't get location readings from feeling tremors in the Force?

Why would they go to Dagobah?

If they can feel a huge disturbance as Luke trains, one would think they'd drop in on Luke and Yoda before Luke is fully trained.

Yoda didn't show any use of the Force until after Luke arrived. Even if he did, Luke mentioned "massive life readings" from the planet. If life creates the Force an abundance of it would be the perfect camouflage for a Force user. Vader would have picked up on his mother and son because they were in distress in barren wastes on Tattooine and Hoth -not deliberately hiding in a swamp teeming with life.

And, again, if the life on Dagobah is so teeming, how do the Emperor and Vader feel Luke at all amid all of those splashes in the pool?

When it comes to locating Force users, it might not be an exact science (like hunting down radar). But a tremor in the Force, plus other information (spies, probe droids, rumors) would almost certainly give them away.

OK. This answers the Dagobah question, then.

Srynerson wrote:

Stravo wrote:These cherry picked examples are meant to provide evidence for the point that the Force somehow manipulates the Jedi and Sith, revealing knowledge that it needs them to use and withholding help precisely when the Force user needs it most.

It could fit with Qui-Gon's statement that the midichlorians "tell us the will of the Force," which implies a certain degree of consciousness on the Force's part.

Obi-Wan debunks this theory in the RotS novelisation. Saying that when the Jedi talk about the will of the force they;re merely describibng somethong they don't fully understand. Ad says that its like someone not understanding gravity saying thats its the will of the river to flow towards the see.

So the Force might not have a consciousness as such but could still always work to balance itself.

Surlethe wrote:If they can feel a huge disturbance as Luke trains, one would think they'd drop in on Luke and Yoda before Luke is fully trained.

I'm talking about the vibes from Luke on Hoth, which is a barren ice cube. Dagobah is a triple canopy swamp.

And, again, if the life on Dagobah is so teeming, how do the Emperor and Vader feel Luke at all amid all of those splashes in the pool?

See above.

When it comes to locating Force users, it might not be an exact science (like hunting down radar). But a tremor in the Force, plus other information (spies, probe droids, rumors) would almost certainly give them away.

OK. This answers the Dagobah question, then.

True. When Anakin was casting a net (so to speak) in AOTC, he knew where his mother was already. Vader and the Emperor don't even know where to begin looking for Yoda and Ben.