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A curious question on something that seems a silly brainbug...

It is widely regarded that iin the SW galaxy there is a large, mysterious "Unknown Region" of space, out there, somewhere... A few questions naturally pop up...

To begin with, it is seemingly ludicrous that in the SW galaxy any area of space should be "Unknown" given the scanning tech that is posed as well as the more then 25,000 years of history that various people have had to map the "Unknown regions"

Is there reason given for this rather large oversight? Is there some purpose that either, no one has bothered to map it, or, that no one bothers to go there?

Just a curious thought.

It's not so much that they're entirely unknown, or unexplored for that matter. Much of the Unknown Regions except for the isolationist and agressively defensive of their space Chiss Dominion and perhaps the very outer rim have been surveyed by the OR. Hell in Survivor's Quest the OR knew enough about the UR to plan on establishing colonies along the way, plus Adumar was a colony that the OR lost track of. It's just that alot of the UR was surveyed hundreds or thousands of years before the Clone Wars and the OR just never got around to developing or expanding into the UR due to having plenty of resources close to home and easier to get to. Plus the UR's systems sre much more spread out than they are in the core, and there are navigation hazards. These factors combined with hostile or indifferent star nations made the UR uninviting to any seeking trade or developement and like the deep core is mainly used as a haven for groups not wanting to be bothered or found. A better term would probably be the Undeveloped Regions or the Uninviting Regions.

Edit: Also, because the UR is similar to the Deep Core and because of Thrawn and the Empire of the Hand's work there Palpatine erased or never bothered to disseminate data on the UR so the NR/GFFA know very little about it and are having to resurvey the UR again as with the Deep Core.

I've just rationalized that they're "unexplored" in the sense of "We haven't really officially checked on them in awhile, mostly because we don't care", and that the mapping effort Thrawn was sent on was done to make sure that the place still matched up to the archaic maps (or to replace them after a deletion, perhaps).

Wasn't the Chiss space and that giant 250 extra sectors of goodness on the giant map in Mount Tantiss both located in the UR?

A lot of the Unknown Regions was realistically the galactic halo and surrounding star clusters.

Crossroads Inc. wrote:A curious question on something that seems a silly brainbug...

It is widely regarded that iin the SW galaxy there is a large, mysterious "Unknown Region" of space, out there, somewhere... A few questions naturally pop up...

To begin with, it is seemingly ludicrous that in the SW galaxy any area of space should be "Unknown" given the scanning tech that is posed as well as the more then 25,000 years of history that various people have had to map the "Unknown regions"

Its unknown not so much that the Galactic Empire didn't know the physical properties of the region, but rather, the geopolitical status of the many worlds. Its specifically mentioned iby WEG that pirates, smugglers and even Rebel groups routinely cross into the Unknown Regions to hide from the Empire, and that mining settlements dot the region.

It would appear to be more akin to Vietnam and SEA vis a vis China, after the collaspe of the Qin Dynasty and withdrawal of the Han outposts. The rulers of China may still know about the existence of Vietnam physically, but details about the people, cities and civilisation in the region, or detailed, up to date maps of the region showing new roads or growth in jungle would have been non-existent.

In the black fleet crisis, we learn that even worlds lying within the spiral arms of the galaxy or near the Core geopolitical status are badly outdated, with no detailed status of their infrastructure, probably thanks to the ravages of the Clone Wars, the Galactic Civil war and the resulting insularism and upheaval in records.

As for the map in Vector Prime, its probably "above" the spiral arms of the galaxy, in the halo of the SW galaxy.

About the map in the front of the NJO books, what level of acceptance is that? I always thought that it would make sense for the galactic halo and other star clusters outside the immediate galactic plane to be the unknown regions, but this map shows a huge chunk of the disk being just 'unknown'. It can't be unexplored due to anomalies because it is such a huge region. In Vision of the Future wasn't there a map on Niraun that showed most of the UR conquered by the Empire?

Well, AOTC establishes well that the whole galaxy is known. However, it's one thing to know where all the stars and planets are, and another to map every last asteroid, civilization, city, road, village... sort of the situation back in the 16th century and around, when the coastlines of most of the world was known, but South America and other vast areas where unknown save for basic observations.

I also read something about most of the maps being deliberately destroyed when the Empire fell, leaving the NR in the dark, and the books are typically from the rebel's perspective.

Lazarus wrote:About the map in the front of the NJO books, what level of acceptance is that?

Same as all the other non-movie maps.

Lazarus wrote:About the map in the front of the NJO books, what level of acceptance is that? I always thought that it would make sense for the galactic halo and other star clusters outside the immediate galactic plane to be the unknown regions, but this map shows a huge chunk of the disk being just 'unknown'. It can't be unexplored due to anomalies because it is such a huge region. In Vision of the Future wasn't there a map on Niraun that showed most of the UR conquered by the Empire?

Its better to rationalise evidence than reject. In this case, like I said, the map probably is showing the galactic halo and other stars "above" or "below" the galactic plane. Its a badly drawn 2D rendition of a 3D universe.

As for anomalies, rather than it being general to the Unknown Regions, its more likely to be specific to the area Mara and Luke were exploring so as to rediscover Zonama Sekot.

The idea of a giant galactic region adrift with "briar patch"-like anomalies is absurd, because this kind of astronomical heterogeneousness would warp the shape of the galactic spiral. It is shaped like that because it is uniform except for a bulge, halo, and density waves which form the stellar arms.

Another possiblity is that the Unkonwn Regions,. when first mapped, or surved, lacked alot of life, compared to the rest of the galaxy, so it was demed not worth development at the time.

Course, to the great and benevolent Emperor Palpatine, everything is worth conq.. er.. development for the good of the Empire and it's citizens.

Hmm, who's that big guy in a cape with that funky maks coming down the road?

Hasn't it been postulated that one of the GFFA's tag-along mini-galaxies could be the Unknown Regions?

I'm in the opinion that the Unknown Regions are well above and below the galactic disc, perhaps in between or further than the two satelite galaxies we see in the AOTC map. The maps you see in the NJO novels, the RPG and other official publications does match the map in the Inside the Worlds.

Put them together, spin one around to align the planets and stretch points connecting the ends of the Unknown Regions area together... they match almost perfectly planet for planet.

The only explanation for me is a lot of the official maps are stylized to force a drawing of the Unknown Regions there, which is in 3D terms above the center of the galaxy, but in 2D terms look like it's one one quarter of the map. And since the map makers wanted to show all the planets, they stretch out the far side of the galaxy from the reader's perspective.

Addtitionally because of their isolation, I believe places like Nirauan, the Ssi-Ruuvi territory, the Chiss territory and sectors like Kathol might have a z-coordinate that is substantially more that the rest of the galaxy, and I suspect some planets in the Deep Core are located similarly too.

Solauren wrote:Another possiblity is that the Unkonwn Regions,. when first mapped, or surved, lacked alot of life, compared to the rest of the galaxy, so it was demed not worth development at the time.

Course, to the great and benevolent Emperor Palpatine, everything is worth conq.. er.. development for the good of the Empire and it's citizens.

Hmm, who's that big guy in a cape with that funky maks coming down the road?

Exploration of territory has always been a holistically geometric process. Von Nuemann probes with only relativistic drive will explore the entire galaxy in a few million years. Star Wars has had some remedies for FTL travel for at least 50,000 years. The founding of the Galactic Republic should coincide closely with the completed integration and stabilization of the colonial expansion galaxy-wide.

It should noted that Rakata prime (aka the Starforge system) is in the core in the KOTOR map, but it's said that the star and the planet are either in the Outer Rim or the Unexplored Regions

AOTC says 80% of the Galaxy charted, and even some worlds beyond the RIm, so any "huge Unknown chunks" are impossible.

Stas Bush wrote:AOTC says 80% of the Galaxy charted, and even some worlds beyond the RIm, so any "huge Unknown chunks" are impossible.

No, 100% of the galaxy is charted. If a planet does not appear in the Jedi Archives, it does not exist, remember? The "80%" close is in relation to the Jedi archives that Obi-Wan uses to track down the Kamino sabre dart- a much more specific topic than simple stellar cartography.

Vympel

If a planet does not appear in the Jedi Archives, it does not exist, remember?

That was a specific case. The planet which actually existed in the archives was erased - though the corresponding data (gravitational influence) was not.
If there were any archives better than the Jedi archives, I'm most certain Obi-Wan would have used those.
But Jedi archives host only an 80%-charted Galaxy, IIRC.

a much more specific topic than simple stellar cartography

Certainly, I mean "charted" in terms of getting to a planet. What good is a map which doesn't show you how to get to the point you need?

We both agree that huge unknown chunks are impossible, the difference is that you've confused the 80% quote from the AotC novel/script during Obi-Wan's sabre dart search with his attempts to find the actual planet Kamino, that's all.

Vympel
Oh, true. He was searching for the dart, not for Kamino.
So it means the Jedi database has correct records for weapons produced in 80% of the Galaxy? Now that's impressive.

IIRC Obi-Wan went to a greasy spoon cook called Dex to get an ID on the Saber Dart because the Jedi Archives don't list it. Dex comments that it was Kamino made and he then tells Obi-wan where the planet is located. It's after that that Obi-wan serches the archives for Kamino.

We both agree that huge unknown chunks are impossible, the difference is that you've confused the 80% quote from the AotC novel/script during Obi-Wan's sabre dart search with his attempts to find the actual planet Kamino, that's all.

I see your logic, and I agree that it would be unlikely that suge a huge chunk of space is not explored. But on all the maps I've seen it either doesn't detail the whole galaxy, or shows the unknown regions as a large chunk. If indeed it is a 2D representation of a 3D map, then what about the planets 'under' the unknown regions? How can there be NO important or story based systems in that huge chunk of the galaxy? Therefore I suggest that the 3D idea is unlikely, and unless anyone can find evidence to the contrary, we must go by the map in NJO books, and for whatever reason, a huge chunk of space is marked as being 'unknown' in some capacity.
In Spectre of the past/Vision of the future, Talon Karrde travels to a remote part of the galaxy, which seems to have little or no contact with the rest of the galaxy. This extends to 'monks' of some form existing, who have weapons technology beyond anything else in the area, which would be standard turbolasers etc, albeit not very up-to-date models. Perhaps this is what the unknown regions are, similar systems to this one. However, the problem with this idea is that unlike in other universes such as, say, Warhammer 40,000, it does not take many years at least to travel across the galaxy. Hence, what would be the reason for these systems not having contact with the outside world? How can they simply be forgotten if they are just a days travel away? It would be like myself forgetting the existence of Carlisle, a town a few hours from here. I don't see how it is realistic. I belive that lends more to the idea that they are regions that, when attempted to be explored, have met resistance of some form. This is suggested in the previously mentioned books, where the Empire of the Hand was set up to defend against the threats found in the Unknown Regions. This might mean that, given the amount of resources available in the already explored galaxy, there wasn't enough reason to risk exploring hostile regions.

Expanding a bit on what Spanky said, if the Unknown Regions are the galactic halo, then that particular part of the UR would likely remain unexplored and unexploited forever. The halo forms early, which means that the star systems in the halo are relatively devoid of stuff heavier than helium... stuff heavier than helium, of course, being necessary for planets and anything else that a galactic civilization would be interested in.

and unless anyone can find evidence to the contrary, we must go by the map in NJO books

Doesn't AOTC override that? Especially since the discrepency can be chalked up to the Empire's destroying of records after Endor and before the fall of Coruscant, and with the New Republic's constant bureacratic infighting.

Hence, what would be the reason for these systems not having contact with the outside world? How can they simply be forgotten if they are just a days travel away? It would be like myself forgetting the existence of Carlisle, a town a few hours from here. I don't see how it is realistic. I belive that lends more to the idea that they are regions that, when attempted to be explored, have met resistance of some form.

If the Empire had met resistance of some form, would they not have attempted to crush it and conquer the territories?

The cartoon map in NJO does not even align well with successive maps depicting the same thing, and certainly does not line-up with the galactic features it should (the Deep Core ought to be most of the galactic bulge, but it depicted as much smaller). It should not be taken as an astronomically correct depiction. The Unknown Regions as labeled must be features located above the plane of the galactic disk, because the post-ROTJ "Unknown Regions" focus heavily on Chiss space and their attendant foes and allies. We do know other Wild Space or Unknown Regions exist: the outlying Sith Empire systems lied in the Unknow Regions or close-by, so does the Ssi-Ruuvi Imperium, and of course Kamino. The Unknown Regions compehend ignored or neglected expanses beyond the scope of the main galactic disk. The Chiss Ascendancy is esconced in a globular cluster to the galactic north of the disk's plane.