StarDestroyer.Net BBS

I was minding my own business, looking at the SW timeline on Wikipedia. I clicked on and found my way to the Hyperdrive article on the SW Wiki.

It wrote:The first interstellar space drive known to make use of hyperspace was developed by the Rakata, who built their Infinite Empire around technology using the dark side of the Force to travel through hyperspace.

Around 25,000 BBY, two hundred years after the fall of the Infinite Empire, the peoples of the planet Corellia finally discovered ways of working around the Force-attuned components of the Rakata technology and produced their own version of the hyperdrive; the Duros also independently created such workarounds.

So the Rakata hyperdrive tech was Force-based, and the others created workarounds to this? Does this mean that the Corellians got their tech from the Rakata, rather than the Hyperspace aliens? Or does it mean that their tech was originally also built around using the Force?

Furthermore, what kind of workarounds are they talking about? Workarounds are generally sub-optimal temporary solutions to problems, so that would mean that hyperdrives are inherently Force-based. But perhaps they used the Dark Side for navigation, and then used navicomputers for that instead. But then, that wouldn't be a workaround, it'd be a fix and shouldn't really be mentioned at all (e.g: "Corellian hyperdrives did not need the Force to function", instead). "Workaround" seems to imply that the Force-using parts are still there...

I really hope that it's a case of bad choice of words or fan-wank, because otherwise I can easily see this as the dumbest thing ever. Hyperdrives being dependent on a mystical energy field with its own will. So it isn't tech then, it really is magic


Though, it would be a cute explanation as to why there is no extragalactic travel. I mean, if they can achieve speeds in excess of hundreds of millions times c, then they should be able to go to neighbouring galaxies within weeks. But if hyperdrive doesn't work outside the GFFA because the Force only exists there (or at least doesn't exist to the same degree in intergalactic space) then they could never leave...


BTW, which timeline is correct, SW Wiki's, or Wikipedia's? Wikipedia says the universe was created 7.5 billion BBY, but the other says 13.7 billion BBY, making the GFFA an extremely young galaxy, as it apparently formed 5 billion BBY in both timelines (which actually seems very unlikely as the majority of the stars in the galaxy would then only be first-generation).

What the hell?

The Rakata never said their tech was Force based, just that the Starforge had certain affinities to it as well as other pieces of the computer technology. The fact that Jolee had problems with a major piece of their technology gives an idea that it had more to with something within the mind then "Force based"

That has to be one of the largest leaps of logic to force how one piece of tech they built, meant all their tech was based upon this.

Ghost Rider wrote:What the hell?

The Rakata never said their tech was Force based, just that the Starforge had certain affinities to it as well as other pieces of the computer technology. The fact that Jolee had problems with a major piece of their technology gives an idea that it had more to with something within the mind then "Force based"

That has to be one of the largest leaps of logic to force how one piece of tech they built, meant all their tech was based upon this.

Well it would explain why their empire was so fucking small, yet spread so broadly. The sought out disparate nexi of the Force with their drives, so you have a broad but uncondensed string of colonies because their drive adequately seeks out strongpoints of the Force but not those ordinary regions.

From an SoD perspective, assuming that was information true and not erroneous historical information (it was a very long time before the fall of the Republic/rise of the Galactic Empire period), it probably means that they used the Force for navigation, rather than for converting their ships into tachyonic matter; that was probably achieved through technological means similar or identical to those used by starships that exist in the era covered by the movies.

There are other sources that support the idea of Force-based astronavigation, including possibly Luke's first hyperspace jump to the Dagobah system.

Cykeisme wrote:From an SoD perspective, assuming that was information true and not erroneous historical information (it was a very long time before the fall of the Republic/rise of the Galactic Empire period), it probably means that they used the Force for navigation, rather than for converting their ships into tachyonic matter; that was probably achieved through technological means similar or identical to those used by starships that exist in the era covered by the movies.

There are other sources that support the idea of Force-based astronavigation, including possibly Luke's first hyperspace jump to the Dagobah system.

I believe that the new essential chronology supports the force navigation idea. I will check it when I get back.

Cykeisme wrote:From an SoD perspective, assuming that was information true and not erroneous historical information (it was a very long time before the fall of the Republic/rise of the Galactic Empire period), it probably means that they used the Force for navigation, rather than for converting their ships into tachyonic matter; that was probably achieved through technological means similar or identical to those used by starships that exist in the era covered by the movies.

So it's a bad choice of words, then. Replacing the navigational system would hardly be a "workaround". Also, then they wouldn't "[use] the Dark Side to travel through hyperspace", but use the Dark Side to... well, navigate. The hyperdrive itself would have worked without it...

But meh, maybe the site's just crap. It seems to support the idea that hyperspace is a "parallel dimension"...

Actually, I just found this fine quote on the Hyperspace talk page there:

Fade wrote:Ever wondered if hyperspace/hyperdrives unknowingly utilise the Force in some way? After all, the Force has no trouble traversing time or space. Maybe the designers tapped into this without even knowing it. Although it isn't why I thought of the idea, the Rakata used the Force in their spacecraft to propel them.

Well, well. Where are they getting all of this from?

This appears to have started with the New Essential Guide to Chronology, as AK_Jedi pointed out:

Page 4 wrote:The Rakatans used the Force to power thier technology, and employed starship engines that allowed them to tunnel through hyperspace and reach other planets with Force-strong signatures.

Page 5 wrote:...Corellian scientists succeeded in "perfecting" the Rakatan hyperdrive by implementing technology-based workarounds to Force-attuned components.

These passages clearly suggest that the Rakatans only used the Force to navigate and power the hyperdrives, and that the Corellians designed artifical sensors and reactors to replace them. Nothing at all about the Rakata actually using the Force as a type of Hyperdrive.

I was a bit miffed by this. Alot of the information on the Rakata from the NEC is, I believe, suspect. It claims that Coruscant, Corellia, and other core worlds were dominated by the Rakata and that humans were a slave race. Which doesn't make any sense, as it both contradicts in-game information that the Rakatans had never encountered humans, and also simple logic that if humans were enslaved by the Rakata for millennia and got hypertech from them that they'd at least have some sort of oral tradition about them, and not have never heard of them. Plus, Coruscanti colonized Alderaan c. 27,000 BrS while the Rakatan empire spanned between c. 30,000 and 25,000 BrS. It seems odd that an opressed Rakata slave race would be sending out colony ships during the probably height of Rakata occupation. And again, if humans and other Repubilc-founding species in the core worlds (like the Duros) were enslaved by the Rakata so close up to the founding of the Republic, it's very strange that they completely forgot about it.

I like Dan Wallace, but when I asked him about it he gave a kind of half-assed explanation that the Rakata had a minor core-world presence and stopped by Coruscant every so often to pick up slaves.

Truth is, though, the easiest way to get around this is just to ignore it. The NEC is penned in-universe by Voren Na'al, an ex-Rebel officer in the Historical Corps who was tasked during the civil war with 'researching' various events and then writing up historical-- or propaganda, to be less charitable-- pieces on them. It's entirely likely (from an in-universe perspective) that he'd just make shit up.

All of this is unfortunately a kludge because of the simultaneous unlikelihood of a galactic-scale civilization self-destructing, a galaxy-spanning civilization (from the Rakatan capital to Tattooine and Kashyyyk - more “we must display the same planets over and over again” minimalism - ), and a meager several hundred planets comprehending this “infinite empire.” SW writers are idiots. This is well documented.

It is strongly implied in the game that the Star Forge's darkside-using technology isn't unique, which certainly makes sense - it should have previous technology to build upon. That said, it's a quantum leap to assume it was part of all their technology, and merely bad writing to put it in connection with humans. In any case, later hyperdrives clearly don't rely on the force, be it only as a navigation aid or else.

Hmm, I think somebody's been reading/watching too much "Dune."

I'm getting the impression that all hyperspace engines are from Jedi or Sith? Well they can't only be powered by Force. The Jedi and Sith were forgottin in the origonal trilogy so people in the galaxy would have ran out of hyperspace juice after a while if it were powered by Force.

Navigation and power generation has been accomplished by technological means for (at least) the past 25,000 years. The discussion was about before that.

Cykeisme wrote:Navigation and power generation has been accomplished by technological means for (at least) the past 25,000 years. The discussion was about before that.

000 wrote:And again, if humans and other Repubilc-founding species in the core worlds (like the Duros) were enslaved by the Rakata so close up to the founding of the Republic, it's very strange that they completely forgot about it.

I think the in-game explination says that when the oppressed races were able to overthrow the Rakata (after the Rakata exclusive plague) they destroyed every accessible vissage of their oppressors and forbid speaking of them. The only people that kept any kind of oral history of the Rakata were the Sand People. The origins of any technology they needed to keep would fall under the aforementioned shut mouth policy.

In KoTOR the Rakata mention that their empire began to fall when they lost touch with the Force, because "their ships weren't able to travel as far and fast anymore" (the quote is probably a bit off ). I think there was some mention about their technology somehow utilising the Force too.

Karza wrote:In KoTOR the Rakata mention that their empire began to fall when they lost touch with the Force, because "their ships weren't able to travel as far and fast anymore" (the quote is probably a bit off ). I think there was some mention about their technology somehow utilising the Force too.

Actually, it is that quote, and the its later substantiation in Chronology that triggered this dispute. It seems to refer to their usage of the Force it guide and power their FTL travel, not to the actually using the Force to propel their starships, as was suggested by some.