StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Here's a link to a site with a rewriting of the sw insider magazine article:

http://swg.stratics.com/content/gamepla ... mbat.shtml

Interesting stuff.

Good post. I can hear Bob Brown crying bitterly from here though

One thing though- it says Qui-Gonn studied Form IV same as Yoda- but we never see Qui-Gonn performing any of the acrobatics of Yoda.

This is mostly a reprint of information that originally appeared in the SW VD for EP2. In the last few pages of that book, they have some very intresting info on lightsaber combat. Definetly worth checking out.

However, for information about stances and strikes, I like to refer to information that was put together for an onlin SW RPG that I took part in a few years ago. The info was collected from various sources, mostly i believe from actual Martial Arts. Here goes:

Jedi Fighting Arts of Kei'No
What is "Kei'No"?

Developed Millennia upon Millennia past by a great and respected Jedi Master serving on the Council named Jorcsh Car'dalla, a human resident of the since-lost world of Alath, Kei'No was intended to serve the Jedi as a uniform fighting style which was based in a defensive, reactionary style, as opposed to the more aggressive styles preferred by the many Dark Jedi then plaguing the galaxy. Its defensive edge was in fact SO polished that in the twenty thousand years following the death of Master Car'dalla, no style was found to surpass his work. The name Kei'No, a combination of two Alathian words, was not adopted until years after Master Car'dalla's death, but at the time of its adoption, the Jedi Council felt the Alathian words "Kei" and "Noe," meaning "Jedi" and "Way," to well define the technique behind Car'dalla's work.

Even as it passed down through the thousands of years following the death of its creator, Kei'No changed little. Though additional stances were added for the addition of a double-bladed lightstaff to Jedi Weaponry, or to accomadate those Jedi who saught to weild two blades in combat, Kei'No's inherent role as a defensive art of martial combat remained unchanged, and only continued to increase in its fluidity and gracefulness. In time, Masters of the Art were seen almost as artisans, so beautiful and graceful could their fighting be.

As with all arts, Kei'No's rich heritage only increased with age. Long-lived Masters like the great Mace Windu, or the even more venerable Yoda, were acknowledged as accomplished in the arts, and could add some of their own philosophy and teachings to the Jedi Way, but even for all that cultural age and history, by the time of the Clone Wars, Kei'No was already known as "The Old Way," and all but forgotten. Kei'No's galactic fame and recognition all but ceased to exist in the years following the Jedi Purge. It was survived only in the fighting of the Jedi Master Luke Skywalker, and passed on in training to his students. Among the many teaching aids Master Skywalker employed to instruct his students in the Jedi Way, as taught to him by his masters Obi-Wan "Ben" Kenobi and Yoda, was an ancient manual recovered from the ruins of Yoda's Hut on Dagobah. An ancient text, inscribed by a Jedi Master born thousands of years before Yoda, which revealed the true name and lineage of Kei'No to the Last Jedi and his students, and enabled the Order to continue in the Way of its predecessors.

Gripping the Lightsaber

In Kei'No, the Lightsaber (when weilded as a two-handed weapon, as is most common) is gripped most commonly in the following manner: The left hand is at the bottom of the hilt, and the right hand is at the top. In this gripping manner, the left hand serves to preform the work of moving the weapon up, and down, whilst the right hand controls direction, angle, and thrust. The grip used is much like the grip of any other two-handed handle, with the thumb and first finger of the right hand at the top of the hilt. But in the Jedi Way, the force of the blow is most strong applied by the ring and index fingers.

Although this style CAN be reversed, and although it is possible to weild the lightsaber in a single hand, it has been found that the strongest and most balance grip IS that of the traditional Jedi Way, right hand over left, strength in the index and ring fingers. Even the left-handed duelists are advised to prefer the original grip, as it lends uncommon strength to your upward or downward movements that may catch an unwary opponent off guard.

Fighting Stances in Kei'No

Traditionally, The Jedi Way of Kei'No utilizes a fighting stance where both feet are parallel, with the right foot being both forward and a few inches to the side of the left. In this stance, the balls of the feet take on the weight of the stance, and although it seems to run contrary to common sense, forward movement is propelled off of the rear foot, and NOT by leaping forward or sliding forward with the front foot. If you require a pivot, use the frontal foot (weight centered on the ball of the foot) to pivot upon, launching forward from the rear foot. In Kei'No, the frontal foot is referred to as "Fro" and the rear as "Frae."

Some saber users, however, who attempt to weild their weapon with more strength than Is actually required (in hope, perhaps of an added edge of speed, though with the massless blade of a lightsaber this policy is not recommended) favor a wider stance, called the "Ken'Ju" stance. But in either case, if the duelist is upright, balanced, aware, and holds the center with his or her weapon (as will be explained in detail further on), then the stance will be adequate for the defensive nature of Kei'No.

Once the duelist IS so balanced, aware, and etc., the typical need of a swordsman to dodge in-coming attacks though weaving, swaying, or bobbing, no longer exists, as all attacks can be well-countered from the Kei'No stances without requiring any ducking, flinching, twisting, or gyrating. In fact, to preform these actions would only slow you, and leave you more open to attack from a more controlled master of the weapon.

Footwork in Kei'No

There are primarily two forms of footwork employed in the Kei'No, one for the common duelist, and one for the advanced, skilled master veteran of many battles. The first is referred to as "Koe'noi" (for Gliding Walk) and the second as simply "Koe" (Glide).

Koe'noi, which is quick and well-suited to covering greater distances between foes, involves a sort of 'walking' footwork from which it recieves its name. The feet are kept close to the ground, like a sort of glide, to prevent interruption from causing loss of balance. This style is easy to learn and to employ, and is more widely adopted than Koe.

Koe, unlike Koe'noi, is a more masterful footwork used by true masters of dueling. It involves starting from a position like unto that of the Kei'No Fighting Stance (Above Section), with one foot (often the right) ahead of the other. THIS POSITION IS RETAINED throughout the duel, barring a drastic change in location. Typically, the foot which is forward would seem to glide off the ground a little ways, to be followed by the foot behind. This footwork is adopted when fighting becomes that of close-quarters, but again, is most commonly used by MASTER duelists.

Remember - excessive movement is to be kept to a minimum. Your body should always be facing straight, or nearly so, toward your opponent - wild, meaningless flips may look both artistic and colorful, but are likely to drain you, leaving you tired, slow, and vulnerable. Keep excessive movement to a minimum.

If you are wondering which foot to lead with, refer back to the grip with which you hold your saber. If you hold it as is customary, right hand over left, lead with the right foot. If you employ the reverse, lead with the left.

Kanae (En-Guarde) Postions in Kei'No.

Just as with all sword arts, Kei'No has its own forms of En-Guarrde positioning - what it refers to as its Kanae. Howeveer, unlike with common sword-fighting stances, Kanae are NOT merely physical positions of readiness. They are mental, spiritual, emotional, and Force focii - nessecary for the unseen mental dueling of the Jedi and their Force-using opponents, a mental combat that can be even more deadly than the physical one.

There are both the 'classic' static, or stationary, Kanae in Kei'No and the 'transitional' fluid Kanae as well. For instance, although some times a duelist may launch an attack straight from a classic, stationary Kanae stance, sometimes a duelist may go through one, two, or even three or more extra Kanae before finding an opening in the defenses of their opponent in which to strike. They cannot simply drop their guard and reposition, so they must move transitionally, fluidly, from one Kanae to the next. The Kanae are: Chulan, Gelan, Jolan, Hasho, and Wake'. They are classically referred to as Chulan-No-Kanae, Gelan-No-Kanae, and so on.

Chulan

The basic stance of the Kei'No, Chulan is referred to as the 'second position,' by some duelists, though its ranking is not essentially vital. It is the middle-guard of the Kei'No. The saber will be held with the tip of the blade aimed toward your opponent's throat. The hilt is held around your waist, in front of your stomache, and centered in front of your body, and the blade point angles up 30 to 45 degrees. All of the Kei'No cutting attacks may be made from this position, and every possible frontal assault can be blocked from this stance as well, thus making this the most powerful of Kanae. Whomever you are in combat with cannot attack you unless they get past your blade first - or they will impale themselves on the weapon.

I referred earlier to the 'center' position. This Chulan stance is that position, and it is the goal of true Masters, when met in saber fights, to somehow lure away or trick their opponent into surrenduring this all-important area. Just as Lord Vader and Jedi Kenobi dueled for much of their fight on the first Death Star, the two opponents will find themselves 'playing for the center.'

The classic response to the Chulan is to assume to Chulan yourself, to defend your center. This is considered the 'classic second response.'

Gelan

This is the lower guard position of the Jedi Way, the classic 'third position' for those curious to know. Though your hands hold the blade's hilt at the same position in this stance as they do in the Chulan - in front of your stomache - the blade is now aimed down at your opponent's knee caps. This is a tempting, taunting stance meant to signify a weaker position than the Chulan, and bring your opponent to you. With a metal blade, an attack from this position might be to rotate your grip and diagonally strike for your opponent's wrists or hands, but as a Lightsaber HAS no set blade and can cut in any direction, you are just as well off swinging straight up with the weapon as anything else. Just watch to ensure that you can adequately defend your center! The only disadvantage of launching an upwards cut from this Kanae is that the cut will not be as strong as would one descending from Chulan.

The classic response to Gelan is to assume either Chulan, Jolan, or Hasho, though Jolan should be considered last as a response, as Gelan is nearly as threatening to your center as a Kanae as Chulan is. These are then considered 'classic third responses.'

Jolan

The 'first position' of Kei'No, Jolan is the upper-guard. Here, the blade is held over your own head at about 45 degrees. The very base of your handle should be aimed at the foe's eyes in this Kanae. Jolan is by far the most aggressive of the Kei'No stances, and the most aptly suited to a duelist who intends to strike out at and destroy their opponent, as it has little of the defensive positioning of the other stances, and much more power can be put behind the blade as it strikes. It's largest disadvantage is that it is slow to the defense in this stance, and the center is cleanly un-guarded. Jolan is best used by the lightsaber duelist in transition.

The classic response to Jolan is either Chulan, Gelan or Wake', since the upper guard allows more leeway in choosing a defense, and your center would not be as threatened by the Jolan as it would by the Chulan, Gelan, or Hasho. These then are known as 'classic first responses.'

Hasho

Classic 'fourth position,' Hasho is a somewhat more calm and defensive version of Jolan. Here, the blade is held as a shoulder stance. It is held up over your shoulder, next to your face, usually on the right side, but some times on the left as well. The hands are positioned by the jaw, and the elbows point down. Nearly as aggressive as Jolan, this stance trades a little of Jolan's offensive power for defensive options, by bringing the blade closer toward the center. Qui-Gon Jinn, a Master of the Jedi Way, often used this Kanae.

The classic response to Hasho is either Chulan or Gelan. These then are 'classic fourth responses.'

Wake'

Wake' is the Classic 'fifth position' and is known as the hidden guard. It is held very low, on the right side. If you assumed the Classic Gelan position and then turned your body to the left all the way around 180 degrees, you would then be in the classic Wake' position. This stance is the least used, least preformed of all the Jedi Kanae, because it is far too dangerous to employ against any opponent who is not horribly enraged and has lost the sense of reasoning to discover that your chest and center are now WIDE open. From Wake' it is possible to launch a devasting across-the-chest strike, but again, the risk to yourself cannot be ignored.

The classic responses to Wake' consist of all the Kanae, as Wake' is by far the weakest, most open and defenseless of all the Kanae. These are then known as the 'classic fifth responses.'

Kathol (Basic Strikes) of the Kei'No

In the Kei'No, all complex and seemingly difficult sequences of moves can be broken down into their most basic strikes and transitions. True skill lies not in the difficulty of the moves preformed, nor in the grace with which they are preformed, but in the exact precision and timing required to preform them exactly as demanded.

Mein

The simplest of all Kathol is the Mein, the large, vertical, overhead strike. It faces your opponent head on, as if to cleave them down their middle, and leave two smoking sections of dead corpse lying side by side on the floor. This strike aims for the immediate kill, and it is important that you not let the right hand over-dominate this grip, because, as was said above in "Gripping The Lightsaber," the left hand controls vertical movement, and should descened on a straight line down the center of your body, and the right hand steers the blow. If you would rather strike at either side of the opponent's face, then the right hand can be brought in to so steer the weapon, but otherwise, a simple downward vertical strike should be empowered by the left hand.

Hasho-Mein

The second of the Kathol is the Shoulder-strike. Launched best from the Hasho Kanae, the Hasho-Mein descends from above the shoulder as a diagonal cut. These blows are VERY powerful and are use to disect an opponent from shoulder to hip. The left hand should still control the power of this blow, and as it descends, bring the blade down to the center line we discussed in the above Kathol, Mein, ending just in front of your stomach or navel.

Hasho-Mein Kieraki-ashe' is a form of this Kathol in which the duelist side-steps an oncoming foe before delivering the blow. It involves launching, as was said before, forward with the rear foot of your stance, or backward with the forward foot of your stance. In either case, whichever foot is launched shoulder pivot back and away a half-pivot (90 degrees) to avoid the on-coming assault, and plant itself behind the foot which was pivoted behind. This stance can be changed later after the Kathol is launched, but don't waste time finding perfect footing to deliver this Side-stepping blow. (Kieraki-ashe' is a Kei'No term for side-step.)

Kho

The third of the Kathol strikes is a belly cut, launched from either Hasho or Chulan or Gelan best, though Wake' and Jolan can also utilize this blow, the Kho cut arcs itself across the opponent's waist and midsection. Vader, taller than Kenobi, killed Kenobi with this strike across Ben's shoulders and neck.

Kobe'

The fourth Kathol is a more Jedi-like strike than any other, as its purpose is to disarm and disable, rather than to kill. Kobe' aims at the opponent's wrist, and whether launched upward from Chulan, diagonal from Chulan, snapped upward from Gelan, or brought down from Hasho or Jolan, it's aim is not to intercept the opponent's weapon or to strike at their body, but to cut wrist from arm and thus both disarm and disable your opponent, leaving them helpless and defeated.

Kein

The fifth Kathol often preceeds the wrist-attack Kobe', because it is a 'center-sweep.' The aim of this attack, launched best from Chulan or Hasho or Gelan, is to knock your opponent's saber aside with a sweeping blow. A well timed Master might then follow up this move with a Kobe' wrist blow, or a …

Tsutae

The thrusting strike is not often seen used in Kei'No, but when it is, it most commonly follows a Kein sweep. Of course, the problem is that your opponent, unless he is very inexperienced or extremely off-balance, is likely to back away and sweep your saber aside with a Kein of his own, and not be spitted by your attack. However, it is a risk sometimes worth taking.

Kena Seri

This powerful, upward swing cuts diagonally across the opponent's chest, and is BEST launched when coming from Gelan, Wake', or Chulan, in that order. This is another rare strike, though when timed correctly can cut through an opponent's chest even as they bring a blow down toward you from a loose Hasho or a clumsy Jolan, or even a Wake' of their own. Such diagonal cuts are often typical of those who wield a lightstaff.

Klea'

Another sweep well suited to batting aside a thrust, and the Kathol best-suited to vying for the center, is the Klea'. The Klea' has the aim of rotating your blade around your opponent's entangling their blade, and knocking it aside while you retain the center.




Important tips to remember when engaged in Kei'No saber dueling include avoiding large, wide strikes that are not easily retractable and leave you open to a fast opponent's better timing. While small, wrist-snapping movements are not always flashy and do not look as skillful as large, sweeping cuts and strikes do, they are far more controlled, and thus, far more deadly. A quick snap of a wrist can bring my blade arcing across your belly while you whip your sabre up to Hasho to come down in a shoulder-strike.

Another thing to remember is that in Kei'No, unless you face an opponent who's intent is more of a nature to intimidate, bully, frighten, or turn you, you are not likely to employ many BLOCKING moves. In fact, Kei'No relies heavily on moves that sweep your weapon aside (a parry of sorts) while also serving as a transition to an attacking move. Small wiping moves, sliding your blade off an opponent’s, or turning a parry into a transition for attacking are how Kei'No duelists become Kei'No Masters, and survive. Remember - these fights show flow like water. They should not be choppy, inordinately thought-out, or massively detailed in hopes of preventing any mistakes. They should be adequately-detailed, smooth, and should flow from attack to defense to attack and defense again.

taken from: http://www.geocities.com/expansionoftheforce/Keino.html

True...he didn't show nearly the same level of movement as Yoda did.

In fact he looked more akin to an advancement of Obi-Wan's...much like a teacher and student should look...and certainly nothing like Dooku's.

Perhaps like Obi-Wan in his later years, Qui-Gon slowed down more and was more careful and less flashy.

Although it does say that followers of this form utilize many of the Force Powers while fighting like speed, jumping, etc. You see that in EP1 from Qui. He may not be spinning ridiculously like Yoda, but you could attribute that to his age and the fact that Yoda is more powerful in the Force.

Vympel wrote:One thing though- it says Qui-Gonn studied Form IV same as Yoda- but we never see Qui-Gonn performing any of the acrobatics of Yoda.

He did seem to do some. Though he used some of Form V as well.

Lord_Xerxes wrote:Perhaps like Obi-Wan in his later years, Qui-Gon slowed down more and was more careful and less flashy.

Although it does say that followers of this form utilize many of the Force Powers while fighting like speed, jumping, etc. You see that in EP1 from Qui. He may not be spinning ridiculously like Yoda, but you could attribute that to his age and the fact that Yoda is more powerful in the Force.

He wouldn't need to as well. Qui-Gon is much taller. He wouldn' need to be as acrobatic even using the same form as Yoda.

Indeed, that is also a well noted point.

Another point to acknowledge is that the flasher you are with your sword-play, stances, etc. the more open you are to a well placed counter strike. What a lot of people don't seem to understand that wasteful flashy movements may look good, but they're impratical. Many of the best sword fighters, and to my understand, one of the best in SW Mace Windu himself, tries to use a little movement as possible.

This point was exemplified with my time in the EOTF (online SW RPG). The fresher, greenier players would be twirling their lightsabers, flipping around Obi-Wan EP1 Style, and they'd be quickly dispatched by a simple well placed strike or riposte from the more experienced players.

Anakin's style is very interesting, he has a tendency in battle to raise his sabre above his head to prepare for a strike(Just like vader does, btw). He does this against Dooku in the end duel several times. But strangly he does so before the battle droids in the arena resumed their attack. He essentially leaves his wide body open to attack. The only reason he gets away with such an overly aggressive style is because of his force assisted reaction speed.

I like the fact that they give a logical reason for why the Jedi were dropping like flies in the arena. It may also may have been that the Jedi during the prequel era normally do not see that much fighting at all. They may be riding on the legacy of the old generations whose prowess in combat created the Jedi's fearsome reputation.

It's too bad we will probably never see on-screen a large scale Jedi battle where the Jedi use some actual intelligent strategies.

Well they are keepers of the peace, not soldiers. They simply don't do large scale modern SW combat- they're diplomats and peacekeepers who can hold their own in a moderate fight, but on a battlefield they're quite insignificant.

Superior numbers and overwhelming firepower, combined with those nifty Geonosian sonic cannons, are enough to overpower them.

Jedi did however act as generals in the Clone War- this much was generated by Yoda on Geonosis and the fact that Obi-Wan held the rank of General in the Clone Wars.

We may see Jedi commanding the fleet in Episode III (don't nobody tell me otherwise because there will DEFINITELY be a big ass space battle in Episode III).

I agree,One of the reasons I got excited about the prequels was that they were an excellent opportunity to create Star Wars style space battles with modern vfx technology. Yet all we've gotten is the lame ass droid control ship battle. The movies are called STAR Wars for a reason! But anyway, we may very well see Jedi pilots in battle in Ep3 in addition to fleet commanders. And they had better be ridiculously skilled. I want to see a Jedi pilot completely own the asses 3 enemy starfighters all at the same time.

I too want to see enormous space battles, but I just don't think that is going to happen. I don't see GL dedicating precious time to a space battle when he can wrap up the Clone Wars in the opening sequence and then focus and the far more important part: the fall of Anakin Skywalker. Afterall that's what this whole prequel era is about.

Remember, he has about two hours in which to accurately depict the fall of a hero, the duel with Obi Wan the Fall of the Jedi and the transformation into Darth Vader...hmmmm...not much room left for a giant space battle that WOULD SERVE NO PURPOSE IN THE STORY. Sorry folks, I just don't see this one happening. We're going to have to depend on the EU for giant space battles.

Stravo wrote:I too want to see enormous space battles, but I just don't think that is going to happen. I don't see GL dedicating precious time to a space battle when he can wrap up the Clone Wars in the opening sequence and then focus and the far more important part: the fall of Anakin Skywalker. Afterall that's what this whole prequel era is about.

Remember, he has about two hours in which to accurately depict the fall of a hero, the duel with Obi Wan the Fall of the Jedi and the transformation into Darth Vader...hmmmm...not much room left for a giant space battle that WOULD SERVE NO PURPOSE IN THE STORY. Sorry folks, I just don't see this one happening. We're going to have to depend on the EU for giant space battles.

Not really, SW has traditionaly had a split story line in the movies. Anikin can slowly turn to the dark side and while that happens, a large battle can be set up to show mass destruction of the Jedi.

I can see something like this:

Obi and Padme go to Planet (X) to protect her while she is pregnant. Palpatine tells Anakin that he thinks the Jedi are jealous of him and Padme being married and that she is preagnant, Palpatine tells Anakin that he fears the Jedi will remove the abomination and kill Padme so Anakin can come back to them. This obviously pisses off Ani so he goes after his wife.

While this happens, Palpatine in his guise of Sidious arranges the final large battle of the Clone Wars. To ensure that his political rival Padme is taken care of he sends Dooku to finish her once and for all, and if Anakin joins him, all the better. If not, oh well.

Dooku and a bunch of clone troops attack Padme and Obi on planet (X) but Obi defeats the clones and fights Dooku to a stand still(he's been practicing since EpII). Anakin shows up and see's Obi and a bunch of dead clones and can't see Padme anywhere(Obi has her flee when the clones show up). Anakin thinks that Obi has betrayed him and killed his wife and attacks his mentor. Here is the Anakin v Obi fight everyone has been waiting for.

Meanwhile, Dooku escapes from planet (X) after he see's that Anakin attacked Obi. Dooku then heads for the (Y)system where the final battle of the Clone Wars is suppost to happen. There is a large space battle and a large ground battle going on with the Jedi and the clones fighting the sepertist forces. Ohhh, ahhhhh, oooohhhh. Ok, the Jedi and the clones win. Dooku who has been given an pardon from the Supreme Chancilor, takes a large force of fresh clones down to the battlefield and attacks the battle weary Jedi, massacering them. Master Windew fights Dooku and one way or another both die. At the end of the battle, most of the Jedi are dead and the Clone troops and their commander, Tarkin, head off back to Coruscant.

On Coruscant, Palpatine reveals the "secret" plan of the Jedi to use the clone wars to take over the goverment. Show the populace evidence that the Jedi were having Senetor's watched. Declares the dissolution of the Jedi Order to protect the citizens of the galaxy. Declares himself Emperor to solitify the goverment and return the galaxy to the glory days of old.

Anakin, escapes from the molten pit and returns to Coruscant thinking that Kenobi killed his wife and unborn child. The rage and the damage of his wounds drive him all the way to the darkside. Kenobi and Padme with two children in tow, flee to Alderaan and here Padme stays with her daughter with Senetor Organa while Obi takes the boy to live with the boy's uncle on Tatooine. The boy is safe there because Anakin won't be able to deal with the emotional pain of coming home. Padme and her daughter will be safe with Organa because he is seen as a supporter of Palpatine.

Anyway, thats my opinion as much as it is.

Clone Sergeant wrote:Anakin's style is very interesting, he has a tendency in battle to raise his sabre above his head to prepare for a strike(Just like vader does, btw). He does this against Dooku in the end duel several times. But strangly he does so before the battle droids in the arena resumed their attack. He essentially leaves his wide body open to attack. The only reason he gets away with such an overly aggressive style is because of his force assisted reaction speed.

Clone, from the section above that I posted earlier:

"Jolan

The 'first position' of Kei'No, Jolan is the upper-guard. Here, the blade is held over your own head at about 45 degrees. The very base of your handle should be aimed at the foe's eyes in this Kanae. Jolan is by far the most aggressive of the Kei'No stances, and the most aptly suited to a duelist who intends to strike out at and destroy their opponent, as it has little of the defensive positioning of the other stances, and much more power can be put behind the blade as it strikes. It's largest disadvantage is that it is slow to the defense in this stance, and the center is cleanly un-guarded. Jolan is best used by the lightsaber duelist in transition. "

I noticed that part of your post, Xerxes, I was just commenting on his style. I never thought that Anakin's fighting was unrealistic. It just appears to require faster reaction speed than a more defensive style. If Anakin has his blade over his head or behind his back he has to bring it down quickly to block a blaster bolt. He can obviously do this with ease. But if he fought with a style where his sabre is kept in front of him or just off to the side he wouldn't have to make as large a movement. But it makes little difference in the end because Anakin was just as effective as the other Jedi who survived the Arena battle. His choice of style is really only important because reflects his power hungry personality.

Lord_Xerxes wrote: However, for information about stances and strikes, I like to refer to information that was put together for an onlin SW RPG that I took part in a few years ago. The info was collected from various sources, mostly i believe from actual Martial Arts. Here goes:

Uh, this seems to be nothing but kendo (with a dash of Kenjutsu thrown in), which is a pity. Kendo is a sport, not a viable fighting art, unless you're preposterously skilled.

Also, the names are decidedly reminiscent of their true nature. Allow me...

What is "Kei'No"?

Kendo. Does sound rather like it, doesn't it?

In Kei'No, the Lightsaber (when weilded as a two-handed weapon, as is most common) is gripped most commonly in the following manner: The left hand is at the bottom of the hilt, and the right hand is at the top. In this gripping manner, the left hand serves to preform the work of moving the weapon up, and down, whilst the right hand controls direction, angle, and thrust. The grip used is much like the grip of any other two-handed handle, with the thumb and first finger of the right hand at the top of the hilt. But in the Jedi Way, the force of the blow is most strong applied by the ring and index fingers.

Standard Kendo, not a hair out of place.

Although this style CAN be reversed, and although it is possible to weild the lightsaber in a single hand, it has been found that the strongest and most balance grip IS that of the traditional Jedi Way, right hand over left, strength in the index and ring fingers. Even the left-handed duelists are advised to prefer the original grip, as it lends uncommon strength to your upward or downward movements that may catch an unwary opponent off guard.

Again, plain vanilla Kendo.

Traditionally, The Jedi Way of Kei'No utilizes a fighting stance where both feet are parallel, with the right foot being both forward and a few inches to the side of the left. In this stance, the balls of the feet take on the weight of the stance, and although it seems to run contrary to common sense, forward movement is propelled off of the rear foot, and NOT by leaping forward or sliding forward with the front foot. If you require a pivot, use the frontal foot (weight centered on the ball of the foot) to pivot upon, launching forward from the rear foot. In Kei'No, the frontal foot is referred to as "Fro" and the rear as "Frae."

Pure Kendo, and, as such, nearly useless in actual combat theatres, doubly so in uneven terrain.

Some saber users, however, who attempt to weild their weapon with more strength than Is actually required (in hope, perhaps of an added edge of speed, though with the massless blade of a lightsaber this policy is not recommended) favor a wider stance, called the "Ken'Ju" stance.

Kenjutsu.

Once the duelist IS so balanced, aware, and etc., the typical need of a swordsman to dodge in-coming attacks though weaving, swaying, or bobbing, no longer exists, as all attacks can be well-countered from the Kei'No stances without requiring any ducking, flinching, twisting, or gyrating. In fact, to preform these actions would only slow you, and leave you more open to attack from a more controlled master of the weapon.

Succinctly put, if standard Kendo.

There are primarily two forms of footwork employed in the Kei'No, one for the common duelist, and one for the advanced, skilled master veteran of many battles. The first is referred to as "Koe'noi" (for Gliding Walk) and the second as simply "Koe" (Glide).

Both walks exist in Kendo.

"Koe, unlike Koe'noi, is a more masterful footwork used by true masters of dueling. It involves starting from a position like unto that of the Kei'No Fighting Stance (Above Section), with one foot (often the right) ahead of the other. THIS POSITION IS RETAINED throughout the duel, barring a drastic change in location. Typically, the foot which is forward would seem to glide off the ground a little ways, to be followed by the foot behind. This footwork is adopted when fighting becomes that of close-quarters, but again, is most commonly used by MASTER duelists.

I highly doubt this. Such footwork is highly stylized and assumes no one will attack you from behind, and that the floor is smooth, flat, and completely without obstruction. To use it in actual combat outside of a Dojo would be rank folly.

Remember - excessive movement is to be kept to a minimum. Your body should always be facing straight, or nearly so, toward your opponent - wild, meaningless flips may look both artistic and colorful, but are likely to drain you, leaving you tired, slow, and vulnerable. Keep excessive movement to a minimum.

Interesting, but I would say the same about Kendo skip-movement. And it's fairly good if the opponent doesn't know where your attack is going, which is a very good reason to not move perfectly straight for the opponent.

Just as with all sword arts, Kei'No has its own forms of En-Guarrde positioning - what it refers to as its Kanae.

Kamae.

The Kanae are: Chulan, Gelan, Jolan, Hasho, and Wake'. They are classically referred to as Chulan-No-Kanae, Gelan-No-Kanae, and so on.

Chudan, Gedan, Jodan, Hasso, Waki. All the five standard stances. Pity, I think - for such a wide art as Lightsaber combat, I would have expected many more stances than the five standard Kendo ones. Just off hand, what happened to kasumi no kamae, not to mention all the european and chinese forms that would be eminently useful for one handed attacks?

Kathol (Basic Strikes) of the Kei'No

Weirdly, I found no direct association here.

"Mein"

Men. This is described in the Kenjutsu fashion. It seems whoever wrote this text has been hugely influenced by Rob Brown, but is not without a degree of training.

Another thing to remember is that in Kei'No, unless you face an opponent who's intent is more of a nature to intimidate, bully, frighten, or turn you, you are not likely to employ many BLOCKING moves. In fact, Kei'No relies heavily on moves that sweep your weapon aside (a parry of sorts) while also serving as a transition to an attacking move. Small wiping moves, sliding your blade off an opponent’s, or turning a parry into a transition for attacking are how Kei'No duelists become Kei'No Masters, and survive.

That's just it - one doesn't survive very long using such techniques. Kendo relies heavily upon the fact that a poorly placed hit isn't counted. You can afford to take a Men cut if it hits your shoulder, which is ludicrous in actual combat.

Kenjutsu, you will notice, has much smoother, less jerky cuts. Their ideal is to cleave the opponent, not poke him.

I would also submit that a more loosely structured or at least more complete technique would be a marked improvement over this one.

There can be room for a space battle, but it wouldn't be as long as say, Endor or Yavin. It would have to feature the first Star destroyers or maybe even the first Rebel Victory mentioned in the opening of ANH.

After looking at the site with the lightsaber forms, I wonder why it would Say Luke Skywalker uses the same form as Vader. If he learned under Obi Wan and Yoda wouldn't he have picked up on one of their styles? And why would they say only the top masters use form VII when Yoda has been called the best swordsman time and time again, then showed he is just as capable as Mace Windu in the fight against Dooku.

Stravo wrote:I too want to see enormous space battles, but I just don't think that is going to happen.

It absolutely will happen, trust me

1: "He was the best starfighter pilot in the galaxy"- unless he was referring to that sad little fluke on TPM, this line has no meaning whatsoever without a space battle to establish it.

2: It's called Star Wars, and we have yet to see one, and it'll be some symmetry to the final battle in Episode VI.

3: It will serve to end the Clone Wars, which will be finishing just when Episode III starts according to stawars.com and TFN.

Again, Eleas, I wasn't entirely sure of where he/they put the information together from, only that it comes from a Martial Art of some sort.

There was a better text offered by the site once, with pictures from both two Martial Artists going through the various stances/strikes, and examples from the movies.

If my memory serves me, for every poisition that is list, a photo example/s where put from the movies.

Also, take into consideration that this was written up as a guideline for ONLINE RP in chat, where the battle is being determined based on your description of movements and position, and how well the other person can explain it. As a guide to organizing that together, it works far better than someone simply typing out "I swing my lightsaber at you" as a post, compared to "NPC_Jedi brings his lightsaber up from the Hasho position to the the Jolan, the blade coming crashing down for a Mein strike, as if to cleave his opponent in two." The point being, that you know have descriptions of positioning of the strike, the blade, and where it's going. Which I found most useful in my online SW RPing days.

Episode III takes place 20 years before ANH. Forget the "first Rebel victory" thing.

I think the best way to manage it would be to have it occur first thing in the movie. "...Meanwhile a Republic attack force led by GENERAL KENOBI prepares to strike at the dark Count in hiding..."

I say it this way, because an honest battle should include big, big ships 8 km in diameter or more. By saying its a precise strike it allows for the minimalism that I'm almost positive we'll see.

Here's what I want to see:

Three Victory-class Mk. I Star Destroyers pan overhead in a v-formation. Spearheading a force of grey Dreadnoughts. that form the core of the battle group. We see several small Republic carriers (preferably ressembling the Imperial Escort Carrier) disengorge several wings of T.I.E. starfighters. They clash with Federation droid starfighters and Mandalorian Y-Wings and Z-95s...slaughtering them....you get the idea.

Lord_Xerxes wrote:This is mostly a reprint of information that originally appeared in the SW VD for EP2. In the last few pages of that book, they have some very intresting info on lightsaber combat. Definetly worth checking out.

However, for information about stances and strikes, I like to refer to information that was put together for an onlin SW RPG that I took part in a few years ago. The info was collected from various sources, mostly i believe from actual Martial Arts. Here goes:

Jedi Fighting Arts of Kei'No
What is "Kei'No"?

Developed Millennia upon Millennia past by a great and respected Jedi Master serving on the Council named Jorcsh Car'dalla, a human resident of the since-lost world of Alath, Kei'No was intended to serve the Jedi as a uniform fighting style which was based in a defensive, reactionary style, as opposed to the more aggressive styles preferred by the many Dark Jedi then plaguing the galaxy. Its defensive edge was in fact SO polished that in the twenty thousand years following the death of Master Car'dalla, no style was found to surpass his work. The name Kei'No, a combination of two Alathian words, was not adopted until years after Master Car'dalla's death, but at the time of its adoption, the Jedi Council felt the Alathian words "Kei" and "Noe," meaning "Jedi" and "Way," to well define the technique behind Car'dalla's work.

Even as it passed down through the thousands of years following the death of its creator, Kei'No changed little. Though additional stances were added for the addition of a double-bladed lightstaff to Jedi Weaponry, or to accomadate those Jedi who saught to weild two blades in combat, Kei'No's inherent role as a defensive art of martial combat remained unchanged, and only continued to increase in its fluidity and gracefulness. In time, Masters of the Art were seen almost as artisans, so beautiful and graceful could their fighting be.

As with all arts, Kei'No's rich heritage only increased with age. Long-lived Masters like the great Mace Windu, or the even more venerable Yoda, were acknowledged as accomplished in the arts, and could add some of their own philosophy and teachings to the Jedi Way, but even for all that cultural age and history, by the time of the Clone Wars, Kei'No was already known as "The Old Way," and all but forgotten. Kei'No's galactic fame and recognition all but ceased to exist in the years following the Jedi Purge. It was survived only in the fighting of the Jedi Master Luke Skywalker, and passed on in training to his students. Among the many teaching aids Master Skywalker employed to instruct his students in the Jedi Way, as taught to him by his masters Obi-Wan "Ben" Kenobi and Yoda, was an ancient manual recovered from the ruins of Yoda's Hut on Dagobah. An ancient text, inscribed by a Jedi Master born thousands of years before Yoda, which revealed the true name and lineage of Kei'No to the Last Jedi and his students, and enabled the Order to continue in the Way of its predecessors.

Gripping the Lightsaber

In Kei'No, the Lightsaber (when weilded as a two-handed weapon, as is most common) is gripped most commonly in the following manner: The left hand is at the bottom of the hilt, and the right hand is at the top. In this gripping manner, the left hand serves to preform the work of moving the weapon up, and down, whilst the right hand controls direction, angle, and thrust. The grip used is much like the grip of any other two-handed handle, with the thumb and first finger of the right hand at the top of the hilt. But in the Jedi Way, the force of the blow is most strong applied by the ring and index fingers.

Although this style CAN be reversed, and although it is possible to weild the lightsaber in a single hand, it has been found that the strongest and most balance grip IS that of the traditional Jedi Way, right hand over left, strength in the index and ring fingers. Even the left-handed duelists are advised to prefer the original grip, as it lends uncommon strength to your upward or downward movements that may catch an unwary opponent off guard.

Fighting Stances in Kei'No

Traditionally, The Jedi Way of Kei'No utilizes a fighting stance where both feet are parallel, with the right foot being both forward and a few inches to the side of the left. In this stance, the balls of the feet take on the weight of the stance, and although it seems to run contrary to common sense, forward movement is propelled off of the rear foot, and NOT by leaping forward or sliding forward with the front foot. If you require a pivot, use the frontal foot (weight centered on the ball of the foot) to pivot upon, launching forward from the rear foot. In Kei'No, the frontal foot is referred to as "Fro" and the rear as "Frae."

Some saber users, however, who attempt to weild their weapon with more strength than Is actually required (in hope, perhaps of an added edge of speed, though with the massless blade of a lightsaber this policy is not recommended) favor a wider stance, called the "Ken'Ju" stance. But in either case, if the duelist is upright, balanced, aware, and holds the center with his or her weapon (as will be explained in detail further on), then the stance will be adequate for the defensive nature of Kei'No.

Once the duelist IS so balanced, aware, and etc., the typical need of a swordsman to dodge in-coming attacks though weaving, swaying, or bobbing, no longer exists, as all attacks can be well-countered from the Kei'No stances without requiring any ducking, flinching, twisting, or gyrating. In fact, to preform these actions would only slow you, and leave you more open to attack from a more controlled master of the weapon.

Footwork in Kei'No

There are primarily two forms of footwork employed in the Kei'No, one for the common duelist, and one for the advanced, skilled master veteran of many battles. The first is referred to as "Koe'noi" (for Gliding Walk) and the second as simply "Koe" (Glide).

Koe'noi, which is quick and well-suited to covering greater distances between foes, involves a sort of 'walking' footwork from which it recieves its name. The feet are kept close to the ground, like a sort of glide, to prevent interruption from causing loss of balance. This style is easy to learn and to employ, and is more widely adopted than Koe.

Koe, unlike Koe'noi, is a more masterful footwork used by true masters of dueling. It involves starting from a position like unto that of the Kei'No Fighting Stance (Above Section), with one foot (often the right) ahead of the other. THIS POSITION IS RETAINED throughout the duel, barring a drastic change in location. Typically, the foot which is forward would seem to glide off the ground a little ways, to be followed by the foot behind. This footwork is adopted when fighting becomes that of close-quarters, but again, is most commonly used by MASTER duelists.

Remember - excessive movement is to be kept to a minimum. Your body should always be facing straight, or nearly so, toward your opponent - wild, meaningless flips may look both artistic and colorful, but are likely to drain you, leaving you tired, slow, and vulnerable. Keep excessive movement to a minimum.

If you are wondering which foot to lead with, refer back to the grip with which you hold your saber. If you hold it as is customary, right hand over left, lead with the right foot. If you employ the reverse, lead with the left.

Kanae (En-Guarde) Postions in Kei'No.

Just as with all sword arts, Kei'No has its own forms of En-Guarrde positioning - what it refers to as its Kanae. Howeveer, unlike with common sword-fighting stances, Kanae are NOT merely physical positions of readiness. They are mental, spiritual, emotional, and Force focii - nessecary for the unseen mental dueling of the Jedi and their Force-using opponents, a mental combat that can be even more deadly than the physical one.

There are both the 'classic' static, or stationary, Kanae in Kei'No and the 'transitional' fluid Kanae as well. For instance, although some times a duelist may launch an attack straight from a classic, stationary Kanae stance, sometimes a duelist may go through one, two, or even three or more extra Kanae before finding an opening in the defenses of their opponent in which to strike. They cannot simply drop their guard and reposition, so they must move transitionally, fluidly, from one Kanae to the next. The Kanae are: Chulan, Gelan, Jolan, Hasho, and Wake'. They are classically referred to as Chulan-No-Kanae, Gelan-No-Kanae, and so on.

Chulan

The basic stance of the Kei'No, Chulan is referred to as the 'second position,' by some duelists, though its ranking is not essentially vital. It is the middle-guard of the Kei'No. The saber will be held with the tip of the blade aimed toward your opponent's throat. The hilt is held around your waist, in front of your stomache, and centered in front of your body, and the blade point angles up 30 to 45 degrees. All of the Kei'No cutting attacks may be made from this position, and every possible frontal assault can be blocked from this stance as well, thus making this the most powerful of Kanae. Whomever you are in combat with cannot attack you unless they get past your blade first - or they will impale themselves on the weapon.

I referred earlier to the 'center' position. This Chulan stance is that position, and it is the goal of true Masters, when met in saber fights, to somehow lure away or trick their opponent into surrenduring this all-important area. Just as Lord Vader and Jedi Kenobi dueled for much of their fight on the first Death Star, the two opponents will find themselves 'playing for the center.'

The classic response to the Chulan is to assume to Chulan yourself, to defend your center. This is considered the 'classic second response.'

Gelan

This is the lower guard position of the Jedi Way, the classic 'third position' for those curious to know. Though your hands hold the blade's hilt at the same position in this stance as they do in the Chulan - in front of your stomache - the blade is now aimed down at your opponent's knee caps. This is a tempting, taunting stance meant to signify a weaker position than the Chulan, and bring your opponent to you. With a metal blade, an attack from this position might be to rotate your grip and diagonally strike for your opponent's wrists or hands, but as a Lightsaber HAS no set blade and can cut in any direction, you are just as well off swinging straight up with the weapon as anything else. Just watch to ensure that you can adequately defend your center! The only disadvantage of launching an upwards cut from this Kanae is that the cut will not be as strong as would one descending from Chulan.

The classic response to Gelan is to assume either Chulan, Jolan, or Hasho, though Jolan should be considered last as a response, as Gelan is nearly as threatening to your center as a Kanae as Chulan is. These are then considered 'classic third responses.'

Jolan

The 'first position' of Kei'No, Jolan is the upper-guard. Here, the blade is held over your own head at about 45 degrees. The very base of your handle should be aimed at the foe's eyes in this Kanae. Jolan is by far the most aggressive of the Kei'No stances, and the most aptly suited to a duelist who intends to strike out at and destroy their opponent, as it has little of the defensive positioning of the other stances, and much more power can be put behind the blade as it strikes. It's largest disadvantage is that it is slow to the defense in this stance, and the center is cleanly un-guarded. Jolan is best used by the lightsaber duelist in transition.

The classic response to Jolan is either Chulan, Gelan or Wake', since the upper guard allows more leeway in choosing a defense, and your center would not be as threatened by the Jolan as it would by the Chulan, Gelan, or Hasho. These then are known as 'classic first responses.'

Hasho

Classic 'fourth position,' Hasho is a somewhat more calm and defensive version of Jolan. Here, the blade is held as a shoulder stance. It is held up over your shoulder, next to your face, usually on the right side, but some times on the left as well. The hands are positioned by the jaw, and the elbows point down. Nearly as aggressive as Jolan, this stance trades a little of Jolan's offensive power for defensive options, by bringing the blade closer toward the center. Qui-Gon Jinn, a Master of the Jedi Way, often used this Kanae.

The classic response to Hasho is either Chulan or Gelan. These then are 'classic fourth responses.'

Wake'

Wake' is the Classic 'fifth position' and is known as the hidden guard. It is held very low, on the right side. If you assumed the Classic Gelan position and then turned your body to the left all the way around 180 degrees, you would then be in the classic Wake' position. This stance is the least used, least preformed of all the Jedi Kanae, because it is far too dangerous to employ against any opponent who is not horribly enraged and has lost the sense of reasoning to discover that your chest and center are now WIDE open. From Wake' it is possible to launch a devasting across-the-chest strike, but again, the risk to yourself cannot be ignored.

The classic responses to Wake' consist of all the Kanae, as Wake' is by far the weakest, most open and defenseless of all the Kanae. These are then known as the 'classic fifth responses.'

Kathol (Basic Strikes) of the Kei'No

In the Kei'No, all complex and seemingly difficult sequences of moves can be broken down into their most basic strikes and transitions. True skill lies not in the difficulty of the moves preformed, nor in the grace with which they are preformed, but in the exact precision and timing required to preform them exactly as demanded.

Mein

The simplest of all Kathol is the Mein, the large, vertical, overhead strike. It faces your opponent head on, as if to cleave them down their middle, and leave two smoking sections of dead corpse lying side by side on the floor. This strike aims for the immediate kill, and it is important that you not let the right hand over-dominate this grip, because, as was said above in "Gripping The Lightsaber," the left hand controls vertical movement, and should descened on a straight line down the center of your body, and the right hand steers the blow. If you would rather strike at either side of the opponent's face, then the right hand can be brought in to so steer the weapon, but otherwise, a simple downward vertical strike should be empowered by the left hand.

Hasho-Mein

The second of the Kathol is the Shoulder-strike. Launched best from the Hasho Kanae, the Hasho-Mein descends from above the shoulder as a diagonal cut. These blows are VERY powerful and are use to disect an opponent from shoulder to hip. The left hand should still control the power of this blow, and as it descends, bring the blade down to the center line we discussed in the above Kathol, Mein, ending just in front of your stomach or navel.

Hasho-Mein Kieraki-ashe' is a form of this Kathol in which the duelist side-steps an oncoming foe before delivering the blow. It involves launching, as was said before, forward with the rear foot of your stance, or backward with the forward foot of your stance. In either case, whichever foot is launched shoulder pivot back and away a half-pivot (90 degrees) to avoid the on-coming assault, and plant itself behind the foot which was pivoted behind. This stance can be changed later after the Kathol is launched, but don't waste time finding perfect footing to deliver this Side-stepping blow. (Kieraki-ashe' is a Kei'No term for side-step.)

Kho

The third of the Kathol strikes is a belly cut, launched from either Hasho or Chulan or Gelan best, though Wake' and Jolan can also utilize this blow, the Kho cut arcs itself across the opponent's waist and midsection. Vader, taller than Kenobi, killed Kenobi with this strike across Ben's shoulders and neck.

Kobe'

The fourth Kathol is a more Jedi-like strike than any other, as its purpose is to disarm and disable, rather than to kill. Kobe' aims at the opponent's wrist, and whether launched upward from Chulan, diagonal from Chulan, snapped upward from Gelan, or brought down from Hasho or Jolan, it's aim is not to intercept the opponent's weapon or to strike at their body, but to cut wrist from arm and thus both disarm and disable your opponent, leaving them helpless and defeated.

Kein

The fifth Kathol often preceeds the wrist-attack Kobe', because it is a 'center-sweep.' The aim of this attack, launched best from Chulan or Hasho or Gelan, is to knock your opponent's saber aside with a sweeping blow. A well timed Master might then follow up this move with a Kobe' wrist blow, or a …

Tsutae

The thrusting strike is not often seen used in Kei'No, but when it is, it most commonly follows a Kein sweep. Of course, the problem is that your opponent, unless he is very inexperienced or extremely off-balance, is likely to back away and sweep your saber aside with a Kein of his own, and not be spitted by your attack. However, it is a risk sometimes worth taking.

Kena Seri

This powerful, upward swing cuts diagonally across the opponent's chest, and is BEST launched when coming from Gelan, Wake', or Chulan, in that order. This is another rare strike, though when timed correctly can cut through an opponent's chest even as they bring a blow down toward you from a loose Hasho or a clumsy Jolan, or even a Wake' of their own. Such diagonal cuts are often typical of those who wield a lightstaff.

Klea'

Another sweep well suited to batting aside a thrust, and the Kathol best-suited to vying for the center, is the Klea'. The Klea' has the aim of rotating your blade around your opponent's entangling their blade, and knocking it aside while you retain the center.




Important tips to remember when engaged in Kei'No saber dueling include avoiding large, wide strikes that are not easily retractable and leave you open to a fast opponent's better timing. While small, wrist-snapping movements are not always flashy and do not look as skillful as large, sweeping cuts and strikes do, they are far more controlled, and thus, far more deadly. A quick snap of a wrist can bring my blade arcing across your belly while you whip your sabre up to Hasho to come down in a shoulder-strike.

Another thing to remember is that in Kei'No, unless you face an opponent who's intent is more of a nature to intimidate, bully, frighten, or turn you, you are not likely to employ many BLOCKING moves. In fact, Kei'No relies heavily on moves that sweep your weapon aside (a parry of sorts) while also serving as a transition to an attacking move. Small wiping moves, sliding your blade off an opponent’s, or turning a parry into a transition for attacking are how Kei'No duelists become Kei'No Masters, and survive. Remember - these fights show flow like water. They should not be choppy, inordinately thought-out, or massively detailed in hopes of preventing any mistakes. They should be adequately-detailed, smooth, and should flow from attack to defense to attack and defense again.

taken from: http://www.geocities.com/expansionoftheforce/Keino.html

*reads*

Uh-huh...

But you never see any Jedi fight the way you described. We see lots of bobbing, weaving and ducky and zero gliding. And the slashes used in most of the lightsabre fights differ quite a lot from the Kendo "slap and poke" method.

And the names were just plain stupid. A little more imagination perhaps?