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so are KOTOR (and Exar Kun) era Capital ships of any worth during the movie era (from TPM to ROTJ (yes including the 19 year separation of the PT and the OT))?

I sincerely doubt it, as such vessels would be 5,000 years old at that time, but even ignoring the age factor, surely technology has evolved immensely in such a huge period of time? Thats probably the main thing I hated about the KOTOR games, its 5,000 years before TPM, and yet everything seems to be pretty much the same, but with a few name changes?

Lazarus wrote:I sincerely doubt it, as such vessels would be 5,000 years old at that time, but even ignoring the age factor, surely technology has evolved immensely in such a huge period of time? Thats probably the main thing I hated about the KOTOR games, its 5,000 years before TPM, and yet everything seems to be pretty much the same, but with a few name changes?

The thing is, pretty much, by the time of KOTOR Wars technology has more or less stabilized. Still a few things to work out, but for the most part they've advanced as far as they're gonna. All that remains is refinement.

As to the utility of a KOTOR capship during the PT/OT era; it could transport troops and such around, but I doubt it'd have the firepower to contend with ships on the level of Munificents, Recusants and Venators.

Capships like the Leviathan is definitely ancient junk, but the Ebon Hawk isn't that far off from modern light freighters, I think. Seriously outdated and with no fitting parts off the rack, certainly, but I can see it still in use somewhere in the rim.

The Leviathan, considered to be a mighty vessel during the KOTOR era was not very impressive at all compared to the Imperial Star Destroyer. The shots it fired into Taris looked much weaker than what a ISDs TL guns would do. Firepower has increased over the years. The Leviathan would be shredded in a fight with OT era starships and it's weapons would barely scratch them. It would however would still be quite useful as a troopship or fighter carrier due to it's enormous volume.

Sarevok wrote:The Leviathan, considered to be a mighty vessel during the KOTOR era was not very impressive at all compared to the Imperial Star Destroyer. The shots it fired into Taris looked much weaker than what a ISDs TL guns would do. Firepower has increased over the years. The Leviathan would be shredded in a fight with OT era starships and it's weapons would barely scratch them. It would however would still be quite useful as a troopship or fighter carrier due to it's enormous volume.

there's just one problem on using Taris as yardstick for fire (the TL bolts hit only buildings so their yeild is unknown (also the extent of damage on Taris is unknown))

Lord Revan wrote:there's just one problem on using Taris as yardstick for fire (the TL bolts hit only buildings so their yeild is unknown (also the extent of damage on Taris is unknown))

IIRC "Every building over the height of 3 stories was knocked down." It was hardly an BDZ - plenty of people survived the attack and aside from the downed buildings we didn't see the crust break off. Heck, most of the cityscape was intact, again, if I remember correctly. And it certainly took at least an hour even with the fleet firing. More unexplained was Malak's intent - to depopulate the planet, to destroy it outright, or simply to devestate it without killing everyone on it. It's hard to say from that incident whether one of the ships from Malak's fleet could BDZ the planet - but then burden of proof requires us to prove that a Starship of the time does have firepower comparable to an ISD, and I'm just not seeing it.

Ypoknons wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:there's just one problem on using Taris as yardstick for fire (the TL bolts hit only buildings so their yeild is unknown (also the extent of damage on Taris is unknown))

IIRC "Every building over the height of 3 stories was knocked down." It was hardly an BDZ - plenty of people survived the attack and aside from the downed buildings we didn't see the crust break off. Heck, most of the cityscape was intact, again, if I remember correctly. And it certainly took at least an hour even with the fleet firing. More unexplained was Malak's intent - to depopulate the planet, to destroy it outright, or simply to devestate it without killing everyone on it. It's hard to say from that incident whether one of the ships from Malak's fleet could BDZ the planet - but then burden of proof requires us to prove that a Starship of the time does have firepower comparable to an ISD, and I'm just not seeing it.

We saw the bombardment for all of what, a minute? Hardly enough to declare quatify it's destructive power one way or another. Nevertheless, though, I doubt that the Leviathan had the firepower of "modern" warship, but most of the technology is probably. SW tech has been static pretty much since after the first Sith Wars, I believe (or some point around there.)

I did some rough timing of the flashes on Taris' surface, they last about 1-2 seconds. According to the main site's handy Nuclear Effects calculator that puts their guns in the 100 kT range. Most certainly not up to par with the GT-TT guns of the "modern" era.

Xess wrote:I did some rough timing of the flashes on Taris' surface, they last about 1-2 seconds. According to the main site's handy Nuclear Effects calculator that puts their guns in the 100 kT range. Most certainly not up to par with the GT-TT guns of the "modern" era.

there's only two problems with that a)properties of building in Taris is unknown b) TLs don't act like nuclear bombs so it's not that clear.

I never suggested that they would used for front line combat, but more like patrol ships for outlying systems.

Lord Revan wrote:

Xess wrote:I did some rough timing of the flashes on Taris' surface, they last about 1-2 seconds. According to the main site's handy Nuclear Effects calculator that puts their guns in the 100 kT range. Most certainly not up to par with the GT-TT guns of the "modern" era.

there's only two problems with that a)properties of building in Taris is unknown b) TLs don't act like nuclear bombs so it's not that clear.

True, but it's good for a rough estimate for low end figures. They would make good anti-fighter ships with their observed ROF and that level of firepower.

Ypoknons wrote:More unexplained was Malak's intent - to depopulate the planet, to destroy it outright, or simply to devestate it without killing everyone on it.

What do you mean, unexplained? He wanted to get rid of Bastila, ie, kill her, regardless of losses. The Telos incident, and dialogue about Taris, makes it pretty clear that survivors were few and far in between. Dantooine had POWs, of course, but one can surmise that Malak wanted Jedi prisoners.

Ypoknons wrote:It's hard to say from that incident whether one of the ships from Malak's fleet could BDZ the planet - but then burden of proof requires us to prove that a Starship of the time does have firepower comparable to an ISD, and I'm just not seeing it.

They don't, that's pretty clear. But if they get enough time, or have enough ships, they could decidedly devastate a planet. Nothing was left living on Telos that was still on the surface. Meaning that Telos survivors were offworld like Garth, or managed to escape prior/during the attack, while all animals and plantlife was killed, and the Ithorians had to import flora and fauna from Dxun. The dialogue in KOTORII makes it clear.

when did useble in movie era = has fire power compareble to an ISD?

there's plenty of mission types that doesn't need the ship firepower to anywhere near an ISD (like most anti-smuggler or anti-pirate duties (an ISD is overkill there)).

The Leviathan is a shit-piss poor design for a warship; this is what happens when video game wankers get to create stuff. It doesn't even look Star Wars-ish.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The Leviathan is a shit-piss poor design for a warship; this is what happens when video game wankers get to create stuff. It doesn't even look Star Wars-ish.

In universe, the Leviathan is a Rakatan design, significantly pre-Republic, constructed by aliens who probably didn't have much cause to use them as warships anyways (the Sith probably tacked on weapons after they discovered the Star Forge, but couldn't change the designs entered into its core). It was probably more of a slave ship/ troop transport.

Considering 3,000 year old Invincible-class Dreadnoughts can find a place for themselves in the CSA's security fleet, I think KOTOR ships could find work in private navies or even in the service of pirates and other paramilitary forces. Though I doubt the Rebels/NR/GFFA or Empire would find much use for them considering they generally don't use ships older than Dreadnaught-class Star Frigates.

Noble Ire wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The Leviathan is a shit-piss poor design for a warship; this is what happens when video game wankers get to create stuff. It doesn't even look Star Wars-ish.

In universe, the Leviathan is a Rakatan design, significantly pre-Republic, constructed by aliens who probably didn't have much cause to use them as warships anyways (the Sith probably tacked on weapons after they discovered the Star Forge, but couldn't change the designs entered into its core). It was probably more of a slave ship/ troop transport.

actually the Leviathan must be a Republic design (it was used during the Mandalorian Wars I highly dout that Darth Revan wanted the Republic to know where his ships where coming from (it still might be designed along the same lines as Rataka ship but the ships themselves had to of republic origin)

actually the Leviathan must be a Republic design (it was used during the Mandalorian Wars I highly dout that Darth Revan wanted the Republic to know where his ships where coming from (it still might be designed along the same lines as Rataka ship but the ships themselves had to of republic origin)

That's actually a continuity flaw that's been bugging me for a while. Indeed, the Leviathan is noted as having served in the Mandalorian Wars, yet it is virtually identical to ever other Sith/Rakatan warship, exempting its usage of interdictor technology. And we know that the ships in general aren't of Republican design because they are noted as being alien when first encountered, with no known places of production.

Noble Ire wrote:

actually the Leviathan must be a Republic design (it was used during the Mandalorian Wars I highly dout that Darth Revan wanted the Republic to know where his ships where coming from (it still might be designed along the same lines as Rataka ship but the ships themselves had to of republic origin)

That's actually a continuity flaw that's been bugging me for a while. Indeed, the Leviathan is noted as having served in the Mandalorian Wars, yet it is virtually identical to ever other Sith/Rakatan warship, exempting its usage of interdictor technology. And we know that the ships in general aren't of Republican design because they are noted as being alien when first encountered, with no known places of production.

Actually it's not that unreasonble to think that Revan(or somebody working from him) ordered a new ship class to help defeat the Mandalorian threat (this would also explain why there's no Leviathan-class ships in the republic fleet (all the ships were part of Revan's fleet and either joined the Sith or were destroyed))

Noble Ire wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The Leviathan is a shit-piss poor design for a warship; this is what happens when video game wankers get to create stuff. It doesn't even look Star Wars-ish.

In universe, the Leviathan is a Rakatan design, significantly pre-Republic, constructed by aliens who probably didn't have much cause to use them as warships anyways (the Sith probably tacked on weapons after they discovered the Star Forge, but couldn't change the designs entered into its core). It was probably more of a slave ship/ troop transport.

Why the hell is it have those two stupid arms? That's as dumb as any Trek design from a structural standpoint any day of the week.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Why the hell is it have those two stupid arms? That's as dumb as any Trek design from a structural standpoint any day of the week.

The OS says it's an inderdictor. It could be the arms are necessary for it to project it's gravwell.

EDIT: It could also just be an idiotic design for aesthetic reasons.

Noble Ire wrote:And we know that the ships in general aren't of Republican design because they are noted as being alien when first encountered, with no known places of production.

Except that every Sith ship we see in K/K2 is Republic, with the one exception of the fighter which is partially alien. Those intermediate "shuttle/transport/light assault ship" kind of things that the Star Forge is, well, forging out, is in K2 a republic ship. Interesting, no? So we're left with assuming that we never actually saw the "alien design" ships.

nightmare wrote:

Noble Ire wrote:And we know that the ships in general aren't of Republican design because they are noted as being alien when first encountered, with no known places of production.

Except that every Sith ship we see in K/K2 is Republic, with the one exception of the fighter which is partially alien. Those intermediate "shuttle/transport/light assault ship" kind of things that the Star Forge is, well, forging out, is in K2 a republic ship. Interesting, no? So we're left with assuming that we never actually saw the "alien design" ships.

Where did you get that? If all of those ships are Republic-made, then why doesn't the Republican fleet also use them, instead or in addition to their hammer-heads?

Noble Ire wrote:Where did you get that? If all of those ships are Republic-made, then why doesn't the Republican fleet also use them, instead or in addition to their hammer-heads?

That's one of the strange things. The Leviathan was a Republic ship that defected with Saul Karath to the Sith. In other words, all the sharkbite ships are Republic designs. This is from the game itself, and it's expanded on a little on the official site.

It doesn't really make sense why the Republic didn't use them. It's possible that this new design was meant for the Mandalorian Wars, and as such ended up in Revans fleet, later Malaks fleet, and the Republic had to resort to using older hammerheads. But that's just me trying to make sense of a glitch.

The "transport/assault ships" are first seen on Taris, landing and taking off, then later in several other places - the Star Forge churns them out.

Then in K2, it's the Sith shuttle going to the Sith base. You can also see it as one of the freighters it on Nar Shaddaa, and finally, it's a crashed Republic ship on Dxun. Very peculiar continuity-wise.

nightmare wrote:What do you mean, unexplained? He wanted to get rid of Bastila, ie, kill her, regardless of losses. The Telos incident, and dialogue about Taris, makes it pretty clear that survivors were few and far in between. Dantooine had POWs, of course, but one can surmise that Malak wanted Jedi prisoners.

I've always assumed there was an intent to punish Taris because of its "haboring" Bastilla thus I wasn't sure whether he wanted a full BDZ or simple devastation with survivors. From your interpetation then we could say he wanted a full BDZ. Admitting my memory is foggy - didn't it show survivors? I guess I shouldn't have posted without reviewing it, but it is a 4GB install.

nightmare wrote:They don't, that's pretty clear. But if they get enough time, or have enough ships, they could decidedly devastate a planet. Nothing was left living on Telos that was still on the surface. Meaning that Telos survivors were offworld like Garth, or managed to escape prior/during the attack, while all animals and plantlife was killed, and the Ithorians had to import flora and fauna from Dxun. The dialogue in KOTORII makes it clear.

Ah. Conceeded. I never played KOTORII.