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Posted: **2006-02-15 04:42pm**

Let's say due to a error in programming one of the Clones decides Order 66 is an illegal order, and declares Palpatine a domestic enemy. The result of which, is Darth Sidious, Dark Lord of the Sith, becomes human shaped slightly less dark scorch mark on the wall of what was his office.

So now Vader will return from the temple to find his Master no longer exists in a particularly meaningful sense. He won't know about the Seperatists being on Mustafar, and suddenly Yoda and Obi-wan have to deal with only one sort of Sith. So how will things proceed?

Posted: **2006-02-15 05:01pm**

FOG3 wrote: So now Vader will return from the temple to find his Master no longer exists in a particularly meaningful sense. He won't know about the Seperatists being on Mustafar, and suddenly Yoda and Obi-wan have to deal with only one sort of Sith. So how will things proceed?

Vader knew about Mustafar before he went to purge the temple not after.

Is your sceanrio that both Palpatine and all the jedi die, or just Palpy?

Posted: **2006-02-15 05:01pm**

FOG3 wrote: So now Vader will return from the temple to find his Master no longer exists in a particularly meaningful sense. He won't know about the Seperatists being on Mustafar, and suddenly Yoda and Obi-wan have to deal with only one sort of Sith. So how will things proceed?

Yoda, by himself, is far deadlier than Anakin. With Obi-Wan for backup, Anakin would be slaughtered in short order, should there be any sort of confrontation. Really, the only chance Anakin has is to run as quickly as he possibly could, before anyone thinks of taking a good long look at the Temple archives.

Posted: **2006-02-15 05:39pm**

If Obi-wan and Yoda went to the temple to find Anakin killing of younglings, Anakin would undoubtedley be immediately disposed of. It would be hard for him to believe that Sidious (thinking he was the most powerful of all) was killed. He would probably say what his future son did, "No... that's impossible!". He would then go beserk on Obi-wan, and Yoda would probably end up killing him.

While the Jedi would be saddened to have lost the Chosen One, they would think it a small price to get rid of the Sith.

Posted: **2006-02-15 05:48pm**

Depends.

If Palpatine is dead before ANakin reaches the temple and he senses/notifies it, he may just shut up and keep his role in the death of Mace Windu secret, then quietly slip away with Padme.

Posted: **2006-02-15 05:54pm**

Solauren wrote:Depends.

If Palpatine is dead before ANakin reaches the temple and he senses/notifies it, he may just shut up and keep his role in the death of Mace Windu secret, then quietly slip away with Padme.

True, but I assumed that because he was in a great emotional strain killing kids, he might not have sensed Sidious' death, or much of anything for that matter.

Posted: **2006-02-15 06:10pm**

Crazedwraith wrote:Vader knew about Mustafar before he went to purge the temple not after.

Are you sure? It's been a while but I'm pretty sure Palps didn't mention it until what we see on the Temple's security cameras, and he orders Anakin. Oh well.

Crazedwraith wrote:Is your sceanrio that both Palpatine and all the jedi die, or just Palpy?

Order 66 has been issued. He just ended up going up with it, cut down in his moment of glory, so to speak.

Posted: **2006-02-15 06:17pm**

FOG3 wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:Vader knew about Mustafar before he went to purge the temple not after.
Are you sure? It's been a while but I'm pretty sure Palps didn't mention it until what we see on the Temple's security cameras, and he orders Anakin. Oh well.

No, he tells him to go to the Temple and kill the Jedi, and then to proceed to Mustafar and kill the Seperatists. I remember because I was suprised when he stopped on the way to talk to Padme.

Posted: **2006-02-15 10:43pm**

All I say is that before he executes out 66 Vader was his apprentice. I think then he would take over.

Posted: **2006-02-16 03:18am**

Anakin dies at the hand of Yoda and Obi-Wan. Messily.

Without Palpy, the Republic continues its downslide, quite possiblyt at an accelerated pace as his subordinates and minions scramble behind the scenes to grab at power.

Edit: Odds are the JEdi are still considered traitors, so the order itself still goes down hard.

Posted: **2006-02-16 09:38am**

Connor MacLeod wrote:Edit: Odds are the JEdi are still considered traitors, so the order itself still goes down hard.

Would they really still be considered traitors without Palpatine around to fan the flames? I mean, the security footage is going to show Palpatine violently attacking and killing multiple Jedi before Mace fights back so it's not like anyone can call it an assassination attempt or anything like that. And the Jedi do have the authority to make arrests, I think.

Posted: **2006-02-16 02:29pm**

I don't remember the novel well, but the dialogue between Master Windu and Darth Sidious before the duel is much longer than in the movie. I believe in this duel Darth Sidious makes it quite clear how illegal the actions of the Jedi are in trying to arrest him (justified as they were). Someone with a better recollection or access to the novelization feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.

Posted: **2006-02-16 03:27pm**

That might be true but it's not going to look well that he murdered the Jedi right there. Saying the arrest was illegal doesn't generally help when you slaughter cops in real life, after all, and with those actions taken and without Palpatine to co-ordinate what comes afterwards and the Jedi able to make a very strong case that Palpatine was in fact the traitor - the evidence that he was Darth Sidious, the man behind the war, would be hard to deny at that point - they should be able to get away with it even if public trust is shaken.

I suppose it depends on who takes over when Palpatine's gone. If it's someone like Mon Mothma or Bail Organa, it'll be fine for the Jedi. Someone less enamoured of the Jedi might use it was an excuse to be rid of their influence, I suppose.

Posted: **2006-02-16 04:30pm**

Once Palpatine was disposed of, the Coucil would reveal what he really was and the Senate would probably swallow it, seeing as how easy it was for them to take in what Palpatine said.

The Jedi would really have not much of a problem rectifying the situation, at least in the Senate.

Posted: **2006-02-16 04:34pm**

The Jedi Had proof that Palps was the man responciblr for starting and extending this war. they can then show that all the deaths in the war were his doing. As such I think they might very well be able to get public oppinion on their side once the actual truth about the war comes out.

This is like finding out that Hitler and Winston Churchhill are the same Person!

Posted: **2006-02-21 08:24pm**

Not to mention the security footage and what Palpy said.

"On the authority of the senate of the Galactic Republic....you are under arrest!"
"I AM the senate!"

That line might get some of the senators blinking.

Posted: **2006-02-21 08:27pm**

Chris OFarrell wrote:Not to mention the security footage and what Palpy said.

"On the authority of the senate of the Galactic Republic....you are under arrest!"
"I AM the senate!"

That line might get some of the senators blinking.

No doubt about it, that's why if Palpatine had died, all political damage could be easily rectified.

Posted: **2006-02-21 09:58pm**

Cos Dashit wrote:
Chris OFarrell wrote:Not to mention the security footage and what Palpy said.

"On the authority of the senate of the Galactic Republic....you are under arrest!"
"I AM the senate!"

That line might get some of the senators blinking.
No doubt about it, that's why if Palpatine had died, all political damage could be easily rectified.

The novelization (Hardcover: Pages 323-327) doesn't have the line: "I am the senate!", as well, Windu only states "You're under arrest"..."You're a Sith Lord!". Also: Only a voice recorder was on, and only to the point of "Help! Help! Security--someone! Help me! Murder! Treason!"

At that point, Palpy destroyed the microphone with his lightsaber, and proceeded to attack the Jedi. For all appearences, it would seem that the Jedi murdered the Chancellor. Political damage rectified, indeed. It would appear that the Jedi slew the Sith Lord for having a different philosophy then them, as the novelization (and movie, IIRC) also contains this line (in response to the Sith Lord accusation): "Am I? Even if true, that's hardly a crime. My philosophical outlook is a personal matter. In fact--the last time I read the Constitution, anyway--we have very strict laws against this type of persecution. So I ask you again, what is my alleged crime? How do you expect to justify your mutiny before the Senate? Or do you intend to arrest the Senate as well?"

Posted: **2006-02-22 12:26pm**

MACE arrives with THREE JEDI to arrest PALPATINE.

PALPATINE: Master Windu. I take it General Grievous has been destroyed then. I must say, you're here sooner than expected.

MACE WINDU: In the name of the Galactic Senate of the Republic, you are under arrest, Chancellor.

MACE WINDU and the other JEDI ignite their lightsabers.

PALPATINE: Are you threatening me, Master Jedi?

MACE: The Senate will decide your fate.

PALPATINE: (burst of anger) I am the Senate!

MACE: Not yet!

PALPATINE stands, a laser sword appears out of his cloak sleeve, and he spins toward the JEDI.

PALPATINE: It's treason, then.

A close shot of PALPATINE as the fight begins. Close shots of THREE JEDI getting cut down by PALPATINE. PALPATINE and MACE continue to fight.

Jedi Master MACE WINDU and the Sith Lord fight their way down the hallway and into the main office area. PALPATINE is able to use the Force to slam MACE against the wall, but he recovers before the Chancellor can cut him down.

Taken from this, which seems accurate enough, if including deleted scenes.

Posted: **2006-02-22 04:17pm**

HSRTG wrote:
Cos Dashit wrote:
Chris OFarrell wrote:Not to mention the security footage and what Palpy said.

"On the authority of the senate of the Galactic Republic....you are under arrest!"
"I AM the senate!"

That line might get some of the senators blinking.
No doubt about it, that's why if Palpatine had died, all political damage could be easily rectified.
The novelization (Hardcover: Pages 323-327) doesn't have the line: "I am the senate!", as well, Windu only states "You're under arrest"..."You're a Sith Lord!". Also: Only a voice recorder was on, and only to the point of "Help! Help! Security--someone! Help me! Murder! Treason!"

At that point, Palpy destroyed the microphone with his lightsaber, and proceeded to attack the Jedi. For all appearences, it would seem that the Jedi murdered the Chancellor. Political damage rectified, indeed. It would appear that the Jedi slew the Sith Lord for having a different philosophy then them, as the novelization (and movie, IIRC) also contains this line (in response to the Sith Lord accusation): "Am I? Even if true, that's hardly a crime. My philosophical outlook is a personal matter. In fact--the last time I read the Constitution, anyway--we have very strict laws against this type of persecution. So I ask you again, what is my alleged crime? How do you expect to justify your mutiny before the Senate? Or do you intend to arrest the Senate as well?"

The movies are above the books, look at the canon hierarchy.

Posted: **2006-02-22 06:11pm**

HSRTG wrote:At that point, Palpy destroyed the microphone with his lightsaber, and proceeded to attack the Jedi. For all appearences, it would seem that the Jedi murdered the Chancellor.

The in-universe-official explanation, as I recall, is that Anakin burst in at that moment and single-handedly took out the traitor-Jedi before they could slay the Chancellor, but not before they could maim him.

Would have been cool if they'd filmed that, and put it in the senate scene as a CGI forgery by Palpatine.

Posted: **2006-02-22 08:01pm**

NecronLord wrote: The in-universe-official explanation, as I recall, is that Anakin burst in at that moment and single-handedly took out the traitor-Jedi before they could slay the Chancellor, but not before they could maim him.

It was actually public knowledge that Anakin protected Palpatine from the Jedi? Anakin sides with Palpatine against the Jedi, he disappears, and this mysterious force user in a mask suddenly appears as Palpatine's henchman. You'd think some people would suspect a connection. Especially after the fall of Palpatine when it would be safe to publically speculate about such things. That might make things rather difficult for Luke and Leia.

Posted: **2006-02-22 08:59pm**

Bill_Dunaway wrote:It was actually public knowledge that Anakin protected Palpatine from the Jedi? Anakin sides with Palpatine against the Jedi, he disappears, and this mysterious force user in a mask suddenly appears as Palpatine's henchman. You'd think some people would suspect a connection. Especially after the fall of Palpatine when it would be safe to publically speculate about such things. That might make things rather difficult for Luke and Leia.

I don't believe that it was public knowledge, but I fail to see how their father being Darth Vader would make it difficult for them. Look at all they've done for the Rebellion, people aren't going to dislike them for their father. I mean, Luke took down the First Death Star and helped Vader toss the Emperor down a hole for God's sake.

Posted: **2006-02-22 09:16pm**

Cos Dashit wrote: I don't believe that it was public knowledge, but I fail to see how their father being Darth Vader would make it difficult for them. Look at all they've done for the Rebellion, people aren't going to dislike them for their father. I mean, Luke took down the First Death Star and helped Vader toss the Emperor down a hole for God's sake.

Anakin was hailed as a hero before he became Vader. A lot of beings are going to distrust force users even without knowing the Vader/Skywalker connection, and there would probably be speculation that Luke and Leia only fought the Empire because they wanted to rule the galaxy themselves someday. Vader's sudden turn against the Emperor could be seen as paving the way for his offsprings' eventual reign. People who know them well won't feel this way, but the rest of the galaxy is another matter.

For that matter, if any of the Rebellion leaders had suspected Anakin became Vader they would have been a lot more hesistant to trust Luke. Resistant groups that aren't paranoid of spies don't last long. It's quite obvious Luke had never heard any rumors that his father was not one of the good guys.

Posted: **2006-02-23 07:06pm**

Cos Dashit wrote:The movies are above the books, look at the canon hierarchy.

Yeah, I know, I just haven't seen the movie for so long I didn't realize they differed so much in the scene. My apologies.

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