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The Jedi led the Grand Army of the Republic for 3-4 years during the Clone Wars and we can surmise from the disparity in numbers given between both forces in several canon sources that at the very least the Clone Army was always outnumbered in terms of sheer troop strength yet they seemed to consistently defeat the droid armies in battle when led by the Jedi.

I infer this from the fact that the Republic is holding sieges of key Confederacy worlds and that the war seemed to only be continuing because of key figures in the Confederacy in command ie. If Grievous was captured or killed the consensus among everyone was that the war would be over ergo the Confederacy by ROTS seems to be on the defensive. EU experts will most likely correct me on this.

If the Grand Army was consistently outnumbered could it not be argued that the Jedi were enhancing the performance of the clone troops with Force Manipulation much like Palpatine did for the Empire?

One problem with this theory is that some sources seem to ascribe this increased coordination as a dark side power of all things - perhaps because of the bordelrine mind control aspects of the ability - so can Jedi duplicate Palpatine's feat with the Empire? Were the Jedi the key to the Grand Army's success?

Was this ability used later by Luke's new Jedi during the Vong war?

Stravo wrote:The Jedi led the Grand Army of the Republic for 3-4 years during the Clone Wars and we can surmise from the disparity in numbers given between both forces in several canon sources that at the very least the Clone Army was always outnumbered in terms of sheer troop strength yet they seemed to consistently defeat the droid armies in battle when led by the Jedi.

I infer this from the fact that the Republic is holding sieges of key Confederacy worlds and that the war seemed to only be continuing because of key figures in the Confederacy in command ie. If Grievous was captured or killed the consensus among everyone was that the war would be over ergo the Confederacy by ROTS seems to be on the defensive. EU experts will most likely correct me on this.

If the Grand Army was consistently outnumbered could it not be argued that the Jedi were enhancing the performance of the clone troops with Force Manipulation much like Palpatine did for the Empire?

One problem with this theory is that some sources seem to ascribe this increased coordination as a dark side power of all things - perhaps because of the bordelrine mind control aspects of the ability - so can Jedi duplicate Palpatine's feat with the Empire? Were the Jedi the key to the Grand Army's success?

Was this ability used later by Luke's new Jedi during the Vong war?

at least one Jedi uses Battle Meditation during the Clone Wars and the NJO uses a improved version called Force Meld during the Vong war

Battle meditation was used in a couple situations, but it's a very rare ability among Jedi. The only times I can remember it being mentioned were at the Seige of Saleucami, where General Rancisis used battle meditation until being assassinated, and at the Battle of Kachiro, where General Yoda entered battle meditation.

During the Vong War I believe the only user of battle meditation was Madurrin, who used it during several battles, including the Battle of Ebaq 9. Organa Solo also had a natural affinity for battle meditation, but she's never mentioned as using it after the Reborn Emperor's offensive.

The battle meld used by members of Skywalker's New Jedi Order is only tangentally related to battle meditation. It involves the linking of the minds of a number of Jedi knights in order to foster enhanced coordination and enable them to function as essentially one being and communicate telepathically. It also has a number of side effects including shared emotions and pain, and is more difficult to withdraw from the longer it's used. The negative side effects become a problem during the Swarm War.

The battle meld was considered very dangerous and rarely used during the days of the post-Ruusan Jedi order. Master C'Baoth used it on several occasions, including during the defense of Outbound Flight.

I believe the Episode two novelization states the Jedi used their powers of perception to help the Clones gain the best positions, though someone else will have to provide the direct qoute as I don't own the novelization.

All that I know is that Super Battle Droids,[quote=RotS_pg74]Whose mirror polished carapace armor [/quote] was enough to make them in addition to their built in blasters more than a match for clones in one on one fight. So they had to have some edge from the jedi or better training...

But, deep down, I feel the LAAT/i played a larger role and who is going to argue with their weaponry

The Republic also had, in general, space superiority. Hammering enemy positions from orbit probably helped the Clones even the odds.

Stravo wrote:the disparity in numbers given between both forces in several canon sources that at the very least the Clone Army was always outnumbered in terms of sheer troop strength

You'd be best off just ignoring them as ludicrously untrue to the films. There is no huge disparity in individual capability, let alone the 400:1 exchange suggested by Traviss.

This all stems on weather or not one unit is one clone or one division of clones.

1,200,000 Indiviual clones or 1,200,000 divisions

Its a big difference

Batle Meditation was an important plot point in Knights of the Old Republic, set almost four thousand years before the films. In that story, it's not a light or dark side power, it's just a power that few have. In that case, it's one character who starts out light, but can later go dark. In either case, she uses the power to help her allies.

Wanderer wrote:I believe the Episode two novelization states the Jedi used their powers of perception to help the Clones gain the best positions, though someone else will have to provide the direct qoute as I don't own the novelization.

I think this is a far more likely explanation that doesn't require extra terms (battle meditation or other Force-based methods of direct influence). The Jedi could simply be using their sensory abilities and precognition to detect enemy troop concentrations, foresee the Separatist units' most probable actions, devise effective counter-maneuvers, then order their execution.


Note that there were orders of magnitude more battle droids produced during the war compared to clones, but the actual numbers fielded in each battle was not so disparate. This was due to the logistics involved in transporting the droids from production facilities to the battlefronts.
As has been stated, the Republic tended to have superiority in space, in the air, and in terms of armor units. Once superiority is attained, defeating even large numbers of infantry-size battle droids is relatively trivial.

Stravo wrote:If the Grand Army was consistently outnumbered could it not be argued that the Jedi were enhancing the performance of the clone troops with Force Manipulation much like Palpatine did for the Empire?

It could indeed be argued and I believed it was used to a certain extent, but it was said in AotC that Clones were smarter and more skilled in battle. They could also use their creative thinking, droids couldn't. So one could argue that 100 Clones could fairly easily defeat 500 assassin droids.

But the scale of Clones to droids exceeded 1:5, and very much so. This is where the Jedi's manipulation comes in.

If the Jedi were enhancing troop coordination, though, what business did they have swinging lightsabres on the front lines? I would think the challenge of taying alive under withering droid fire is hardly conducive to battle meditation.

Surlethe wrote:If the Jedi were enhancing troop coordination, though, what business did they have swinging lightsabres on the front lines? I would think the challenge of taying alive under withering droid fire is hardly conducive to battle meditation.

In the two instances battle meditation was used (Saleucami and Kachiro, Kashyyyk) the Jedi performing the meditation was away from the battle, immobile, and actually meditating.

Exactly, those are the only two known instances of Force-based influence ("battle meditation").

There is nothing that suggests it was commonplace. Heck, those two battles may have been the only two where battle meditation was used.

I don't think it's anything so esoteric as that. A squad of clones led by a Jedi already has a huge advantage over two and even three squads of battledroids. The Jedi ability to deflect droid gunshots back into the droids is a great trump card. Force pushes, telekinesis, precognition... they have the droids at a major disadvantage.

Elfdart wrote:I don't think it's anything so esoteric as that. A squad of clones led by a Jedi already has a huge advantage over two and even three squads of battledroids. The Jedi ability to deflect droid gunshots back into the droids is a great trump card. Force pushes, telekinesis, precognition... they have the droids at a major disadvantage.

Not to mention the already superior tactical abilities of a squad of clones without the Jedi.

the Problem with Battle meditation at a large scale is that the Jedi doing must remain in a meditation trance (for lack of a better term) and anything that will break that trance will stop the Battle meditation (which is during a battle a really bad thing)