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Is Force Vision even described in the various EU sources? In the canon novelization for ROTS, we learn that Dooku can use the Dark Side to actually view the world differently. He can actually see people as their manifestations in the Force rather than their physical bodies. Similarly, Windu can see lines of force and fate, and the so-called "shatterpoints", although interestingly enough, Windu dances close to the Dark Side. It may be a power that is related to the Dark Side in some way.

PS. I would imagine that Vader is bereft of this power, by virtue of seeing the world through an artificial imaging system rather than his own eyes.

Darth Wong wrote:Is Force Vision even described in the various EU sources? In the canon novelization for ROTS, we learn that Dooku can use the Dark Side to actually view the world differently. He can actually see people as their manifestations in the Force rather than their physical bodies. Similarly, Windu can see lines of force and fate, and the so-called "shatterpoints", although interestingly enough, Windu dances close to the Dark Side. It may be a power that is related to the Dark Side in some way.

PS. I would imagine that Vader is bereft of this power, by virtue of seeing the world through an artificial imaging system rather than his own eyes.

I'm not sure it has anything to do with physical sight; as opposed to simply a mental realization "overlaid" if you will on the physical senses' image of the surrounding world. Dark Jedi Master Jerec relied on that vision because he couldn't see with his eyes.

the Species called Miraluka depend on the Force to "see" things for them (Jerec may or may not be a member of this species)

The Exile can have Visas Marr teach him Force sight, but I've never found any point to that ability in KOTOR2. Every time I tried it, everything just looked exactly the same.

If you land on Nar Shadda after you've got Visas in your party, she says that her Force sight could help locate the Jedi Master hiding there, but that's pretty much a lie. Visas is in no way capable of making it easier to advance the main plot on Nar Shadda, AFAIK.

Trogdor wrote:The Exile can have Visas Marr teach him Force sight, but I've never found any point to that ability in KOTOR2. Every time I tried it, everything just looked exactly the same.

To be fair that game was rushed out the door like a semi-aborted pregnancy. Perhaps it was actually meant to do something, but ended up doing jack.

To answer Mike; No, atleast not in the 'old' EU (novels) set after RotJ and before NJO. As for the NJO itself, I believe not.

You can use 'Force Sight' in the Jedi Knight games in order to find the positions of opponents behind walls and the like, as well as secret chambers. It's not really all that useful, though, or at least I never found it to be.

Elheru Aran wrote:You can use 'Force Sight' in the Jedi Knight games in order to find the positions of opponents behind walls and the like, as well as secret chambers. It's not really all that useful, though, or at least I never found it to be.

I considered that, but it's really not what is described in the RotS novelisation and the Mace centric novel 'Shatterpoint', which is more in line with what Illuminatus Primus was describing.

Lord Revan wrote:the Species called Miraluka depend on the Force to "see" things for them (Jerec may or may not be a member of this species)

Kreia also sees through the Force. There's a dialogue path where she tells you how she could heal her atrophied eyes if she wished but that her sight through the Force is superior. Doesn't tell you anymore than that about it though.

As Elheru Aran has stated, the best example I can think of is in the Jedi Knight series. Even if it's game mechanics, Force Sight does sort of give you an impression of what Dooku may have seen.

Jedi Academy in particular makes excellent use of it: points of interest including allies, enemies, equipment you may want to grab, are all highlighted clearly, and visible through walls. Importantly, the range at which you can "see" these lighted outlines has no relation to obstacles; you can Force-see someone through a wall as far as you would with a clear LoS.
It doesn't let you see the Force potential of individuals, though, so it's not as good as Tyranus' or Windu's Force sight. On the other hand, Kyle Katarn is nowhere near their power potential.

Interestingly, in certain areas, the paths you need to take to reach your goal are visible in the Force when you activate this ability. This sort of vaguely simulates the way the Force may guide the actions of a Jedi to lead him to victory.

Lord Revan wrote:the Species called Miraluka depend on the Force to "see" things for them (Jerec may or may not be a member of this species)

A recent retcon by WotC (uncontradicted by any sources, higher or lower) has stated that Jerec is, in fact, a Miraluka, so you're right there.

Since we have several instances of beings with no electromagnetic radiation-sensitive imaging organs still being able to "see" through the Force, I concur with the conclusion that it has nothing to do with eyes.

Lord Revan wrote:the Species called Miraluka depend on the Force to "see" things for them (Jerec may or may not be a member of this species)

I'm fairly certain he was (after all, Katarr was not the Miralukan homeworld).

On the subject, I can't really recall hearing of such an ability in the EU outside of games, and I always thought that "Force Sight" in Jedi Outcast and KOTOR was more of an attempt to give you a fuller sense of Jedi ESP abilities, not as an indepedant ability.

Noble Ire wrote:

Lord Revan wrote:the Species called Miraluka depend on the Force to "see" things for them (Jerec may or may not be a member of this species)

I'm fairly certain he was (after all, Katarr was not the Miralukan homeworld).

On the subject, I can't really recall hearing of such an ability in the EU outside of games, and I always thought that "Force Sight" in Jedi Outcast and KOTOR was more of an attempt to give you a fuller sense of Jedi ESP abilities, not as an indepedant ability.

About Jerec:

in the manual of JK it is hinted that he would be a human who was blind since birth and certainly New Essential Guide to Characters and WotC's Dark Side Sourcebook state that he is a human. However, a Jedi Counselling article on the WotC's site (I'll dig it up, if anyone is interested) claim that he was a Miraluka.

Lord Revan wrote:the Species called Miraluka depend on the Force to "see" things for them (Jerec may or may not be a member of this species)

Why the fuck did they make it a species? An entire race of Force sensitives in a galaxy of ten thousand Jedi? Pena is a retard.

Apparently the only species-wide Miraluka ability is Force sight.

I still find this fucking stupid, but I didn't want to bring it up, because then I'd start to rant about my passionate hatred of the idea behind Vornskrs and (especially) Ysalamiri as well.


Edit: Wouldn't want to make a pointless post, here's a link to a source pegging Jerec as a Miraluka.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=st ... w20050616a

Trogdor wrote:The Exile can have Visas Marr teach him Force sight, but I've never found any point to that ability in KOTOR2. Every time I tried it, everything just looked exactly the same.

Actually, it looks different if you set the game at pretty much its highest graphic performance (as in, all of those secondary features like V-Sync or whatever turned on) and your card can handle it. Basically, light side people glow blue, dark side people glow red, and you can see people behind walls. Doesn't change your point that it add absolutely nothing but fluff to the game.

I knew it was Peña. He's a fucking retard.

That doesn't make any God-damned sense. An entire race of humans that have evolved without eyes so they are attuned to the force? What the fuck were those people smoking?

Anyway, can someone provide the quote from the novelisation of RotS that indicates Tyranus' use of Force Sight for those of us without access to the novel? Thanks in advance.

Darth Wong wrote:PS. I would imagine that Vader is bereft of this power, by virtue of seeing the world through an artificial imaging system rather than his own eyes.

I'm not sure that by seeing they mean physically "seeing". Probably more of a mind thing, like the young Annie "seeing" things before they actually happen in the pod races. If he actually "saw" them physically, he would probably crash and burn.

They may be approaching it from the wrong angle. Miraluka may still be genetically human; however, the original settlers of the planet they were on were exposed to radiation/pathogens/[insert cause here] which caused blindness. This was passed on through their children, and for one reason or another they weren't able to leave the planet and figured they might as well bear with it. A few of said original settlers may have been Jedi or Force-sensitives; with their children being more likely to survive, they would be vitally important as breeding partners, and with enough shagging they could have propagated the genetic Force-sensitivity.

Admittedly, this is rather a stretch....

In Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter, it's mentioned that Darth Sidious perceives the Force as "an omnipresent mist, invisible but nonetheless tangible, that swirled and drifted constantly about him" (and also that "there were times – many times – when Sidious could see Maul's aura pulsing with the dark stain of impatience").

Darth Tyranus's altered perception in Revenge of the Sith is as follows:

Now the scene below subtly altered, though to the physical eye there was no change. Powered by the dark side, Dooku's perception took the measure of those below him with exhilarating precision.

Kenobi was luminous, a transparent being, a window onto a sunlit meadow of the Force.

Skywalker was a storm cloud, flickering with dangerous lightning, building the rotation that threatenes a tornado.

And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness.

A black hole of the Force.

It is not clear how much of this is metaphor or figurative language, like Luke Skywalker's perspective in Return of the Jedi

Manhood had given him perspective, a framework in which to fit the events of his life – that is, a lattice of spatial and time coordinated spanning his existence, back to earliest memories, ahead to a hundred alternative futures. A lattice of depths, and conundrums, and interstices, through which Luke could peer at any new event in his life, peer at it with perspective. A lattice of shadows and corners, rolling back to the vanishing point on the horizon of Luke's mind. And all these shadow boxes that lent such perspective to things. . . well, this lattice gave his life a certain darkness.

How literal are Skywalker's 'shadow boxes'? Although this passage seems to be figurative language, it's no more or less substantial than the descriptions offered of Windu's 'shatterpoints' (which others can see, but not nearly as easily as Windu can), and actual rather more readily understood than Sidious's invisible mists and pulsing auras, to say nothing of Tyranus's non-physical storms and black holes.

Part of the problem is that the Force can manifest itself in numerous different ways. For example, how does Sidious's perception of the Force as an ubiquitous, invisible mist relate to the way he perceives ghosts and visions? The Dark Side Sourcebook mentions that he sometimes hears "whispers of the dark side"; how does this relate to his ability for prognostication? Does he actually see or hear these things in a physical sense, or is it more a case of 'the mind's eye', as it were? When the Princess Leia 'hears' Skywalker's plea for help in The Empire Strikes Back, it is clear that no one else in the cockpit hears this (likewise Kenobi's advice to "let go" in A New Hope). In what sense are these voices actually being perceived?

Furthermore, sometimes ghosts and visions manifest themselves in the unconscious mind, as when Skywalker suffered from recurrent dreams of his father in "The Dream" or when Obi-Wan Kenobi's shade appeared to him for the last time in Heir to the Empire. In these cases, the entire exchange is taking place outside the realm of normal, physical experience, so it's debatable in what sense they're actually being perceived in the first place. How does this relate to the various conscious perceptions of the Force? Doesn't this suggest that the characters' conscious perceptions of the Force might potentially be something akin to elaborate, waking phantasmagoria?

Darth Wong wrote:PS. I would imagine that Vader is bereft of this power, by virtue of seeing the world through an artificial imaging system rather than his own eyes.

"Your eyes can deceive you -- don't trust them" - Obi-Wan Kenobi, ANH.

I lost my copy of I, Jedi, but it describes Corran Horn as closing his eyes and reaching out around him through the Force to get a perspective on everything that was occuring. The Force-sight allowed him to see fine details that would otherwise be impossible for the human eye to see.

IIRC, the way Corran described it, it seemed that the way the Force-sight appeared to him depended on what his goal was and that he could control how it appeared to him. For example, during an exercise at the Jedi Academy to come as close as possible to touching an object without actually touching it (to learn to use the Force for fine motor control and enhance sensing), he visualized layers of air or space between the finger and object as peeling away as the gap narrowed.

Such imagery did not appear during other instances of Corran using Force-sight to get an enhanced view of an area. However, since Corran's eyes were closed in several instances, it is clear that what he saw was in his mind's eye.

The imagery may also change depending on the Force user (much like Force users each have different strengths and weaknesses in Force abilities). While Corran seemed to choose what to take notice of, Obi-Wan's Force-enhanced views were controlled by the Force in the RotS novelization. Obi-Wan didn't seem to have the elaborate visual effects Corran and Dooku saw, but his view was detailed to the point that he knew where everything on the bridge of the Invisible Hand that could be a threat to him was as soon as he walked in.

But, in any case, none of these Force-sight abilities appear to rely on actually using one's eyes. (Though I suppose there is nothing stopping the Force-sight from being overlayed on what the Force user sees, much like what is seen in the Jedi Knight games.)

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I knew it was Peña. He's a fucking retard.

Peña? The Miraluka first appeared in Dark Horse's Tales of the Jedi: The Freedon Nadd Uprising graphic novel in 1994, by Tom Veitch.

The only thing I really don't like is that WotC actually retconned them completely eyeless: in WEG their eyes were merely nonfunctional and completely white.

Luke used the "Eyes of the Force" to see out of the Dungeon ship he was trapped on in Dark Empire. He must have also been seeing/feeling impressions from the ship as well because he knew it was dugeonship and that it had been used to transport Jedi during the purge, he even new he was being taken to Byss. The illustrated seen does focus on his eyes however.


Yoda was able to what Luke through the force from Dagaba. As he said in TESB "Long have I watched this one..."

Spartan wrote:Luke used the "Eyes of the Force" to see out of the Dungeon ship he was trapped on in Dark Empire. He must have also been seeing/feeling impressions from the ship as well because he knew it was dugeonship and that it had been used to transport Jedi during the purge, he even new he was being taken to Byss. The illustrated seen does focus on his eyes however.


Yoda was able to what Luke through the force from Dagaba. As he said in TESB "Long have I watched this one..."

Both of those are actually rather different from the manner of alternative sight brought up.

Luke saw the force as some sort of glow or mist in Courrtship of Princess Leia after Gethzerion made his brain explode (figuratively speaking.)

I recall from the SW encyclopedia one Jedi ability called "combat sense" that altered the Jedi's perceptions to make threats or opponents more readily "noticable" to the Jedi. I'd have to look up the entry for the precise examples.

Cykeisme wrote:Edit: Wouldn't want to make a pointless post, here's a link to a source pegging Jerec as a Miraluka.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=st ... w20050616a

Thank you. I don't like going through WotC's archives often, since my computer usually plays merry hell on me then for some reason.