Anyone notice that General Grevious's henchmen kick ass?

Lukedanieljames · Post by **Lukedanieljames** » 2006-03-07 11:54am

I was watching ROTS, and kenobi and anakin are battling Grevious's hench men, damn they are good!

I timed the battle, 36 seconds, and there were only 2 of them.

They fought each robot 1 on 1, there were distractions, such as blasters or other robots, the general yelled at his other robots to "stay at their stations" and told the other guys to go attack. There was no scene overlap because you could hear kenobi fighting with the other robot as anakin battled his. The henchmen also took a bit of damage, its head was cut off and it still fought on for another 10 seconds.

I mean...seriously, for a robot? amazing.

Why didn't the Seperatists have 200 of these guys with staffs in AOTC instead of the regular ones with blasters?

The Jedi would have been screwed

Lukedanieljames · Post by **Lukedanieljames** » 2006-03-07 12:10pm

Ah ok, I just foundout they are IG-100 MagnaGuards, trained in special combat,

Why not use these guys instead of storm troopers? They'd be so much better and more intelligent

Something I didn't notice until now is that when obiwan confronted Grievous the second time around, 4 of them were going to attack Kenobi but he had a huge metal machine smash down on them, and even then, 1 was severely injured and was still able to grab his staff and try and fight.

000 · Post by **000** » 2006-03-07 12:13pm

I'm confused. Kenobi and Skywalker took out two of them in the space of thirty seconds, and that makes them "kick ass?" I'm a fan of the design of the MagnaGuards myself, but we've never seen them do well against a Jedi. During the Battle of Coruscant Master Ti takes on twenty or more of them and is able to hold them off while destroying a number; Zayne Carrik, a fourteen year old padawan, is able to hold a couple off (IIRC); and of course on Utapau General Kenobi takes four out in short order. Grievous also destroyed a number during his training.

As to the lack of them among the regular army: they apparently cost quite a bit, and are on the whole unnecessary when standard B-1 and B-2 battle droids can preform the same job for significantly cheaper. They're designed as close-combat bodyguards, not soldiers. Although there is slight evidence that some models may have been deployed alongside regular soldiers equipped with smallish "Bulldog" rocket launchers, if the game mechanics of Battlefront II are to be believed.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-03-07 12:18pm

They cost X times more than Super Battle Droids. Apparently, a team of X SBDs is more effective. You put your eggs in so few baskets, a single heavy weapon hit will take out a significant portion of your force.
Droids armed with melee weapons aren't going to be very effective on a battlefield anyway.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2006-03-07 12:18pm

MagnaGuard's cost the equivlant of a ship of the line due to their superheavy armor. I myself conffes to love the staff fighter types but the MagnaGuard is just at the end of the day a very very expensive well armored robot with much faster reaction times than avarage and more proccessing power devoted to non-traditional tasks.

Heck I'd love a pair of them to watch my back but they cost on the order of several hundred million credits to make and build so it's not something your going to see frontline anytime soon.

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2006-03-07 12:19pm

Also, in Republic Commando, Delta Squad defeats two to four over the course of their missions.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2006-03-07 12:23pm

the the IG-100 series Magnaguards are programmed for just one thing in mind melee range combat when faced with blaster armed clones (either commandos or regulars they're nowhere that effective (aka they're no smarter then Clone/Storm Trooper they're just a lot better at a form of combat that's irrelevant in the battlefields (unless you're fighting Jedi)).

they're highly specialized (which means they're also extremly expensive), a cost of one outweights the worth in any other duty then as Bodyguards.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-03-07 12:40pm

Lord Revan wrote:the the IG-100 series Magnaguards are programmed for just one thing in mind melee range combat when faced with blaster armed clones (either commandos or regulars they're nowhere that effective (aka they're no smarter then Clone/Storm Trooper they're just a lot better at a form of combat that's irrelevant in the battlefields (unless you're fighting Jedi)).

they're highly specialized (which means they're also extremly expensive), a cost of one outweights the worth in any other duty then as Bodyguards.

Official site

When developing the droids, Holowan programmed into them all manner of combat forms, but prior to delivery, Grievous requested that their memories and combat libraries be wiped clean. Grievous wanted to train these guards, not program them. He wanted them to learn the combat techniques and improve from their mistakes.

Holowan Mechanicals delivered several MagnaGuard models, distinguished by their shell colors. Not all are schooled in the same forms of combat -- some are strictly close-quarters melee combatants, while others are trained to handle explosives and ranged weaponry. Some models come with twin guided missiles launched from internal magazines in their back plating.

IG-100s can be made with programming for a wide variety of combat, although Grievous chose to train them himself. Even so, there are several varieties of them.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2006-03-07 12:43pm

Jim Raynor wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:the the IG-100 series Magnaguards are programmed for just one thing in mind melee range combat when faced with blaster armed clones (either commandos or regulars they're nowhere that effective (aka they're no smarter then Clone/Storm Trooper they're just a lot better at a form of combat that's irrelevant in the battlefields (unless you're fighting Jedi)).

they're highly specialized (which means they're also extremly expensive), a cost of one outweights the worth in any other duty then as Bodyguards.
Official site

When developing the droids, Holowan programmed into them all manner of combat forms, but prior to delivery, Grievous requested that their memories and combat libraries be wiped clean. Grievous wanted to train these guards, not program them. He wanted them to learn the combat techniques and improve from their mistakes.

Holowan Mechanicals delivered several MagnaGuard models, distinguished by their shell colors. Not all are schooled in the same forms of combat -- some are strictly close-quarters melee combatants, while others are trained to handle explosives and ranged weaponry. Some models come with twin guided missiles launched from internal magazines in their back plating.
IG-100s can be made with programming for a wide variety of combat, although Grievous chose to train them himself. Even so, there are several varieties of them.

I'll conceed on programming part, but still their cost makes them specialist units and not something you would see in the frontlines.

Lukedanieljames · Post by **Lukedanieljames** » 2006-03-07 12:48pm

000 wrote:I'm confused. Kenobi and Skywalker took out two of them in the space of thirty seconds, and that makes them "kick ass?" I'm a fan of the design of the MagnaGuards myself, but we've never seen them do well against a Jedi.

A jedi who can't kill another robot in 36 seconds, in a 1on1 fight with no distractions is having a tough time. luke finished vader quicker than that, obi-wan and maul finished in about the same time frame in the final portion of the fight in TPM.

During the Battle of Coruscant Master Ti takes on twenty or more of them and is able to hold them off while destroying a number; Zayne Carrik, a fourteen year old padawan, is able to hold a couple off (IIRC); and of course on Utapau General Kenobi takes four out in short order. Grievous also destroyed a number during his training.

kenobi didn't beat the 4 in ROTS, he crushed them with a huge machine the size of a small house. Also, the difficulty that obiwan and anakin had against these droids leads me to believe that the lesser canon might be contradicted by the movies.

As to the lack of them among the regular army: they apparently cost quite a bit, and are on the whole unnecessary when standard B-1 and B-2 battle droids can preform the same job for significantly cheaper. They're designed as close-combat bodyguards, not soldiers.

well they are good for body guards because they are expensive, but they have great programing for combat of all types, as you can see from the previous URL in this thread.

I don't see how it took 36 seconds for anakin and kenobi to dispatch 1 magnaguard each, and then another jedi held off 20 of them for a prolonged period of time? sounds like a contradiction of a higher canon level.

Civil War Man · Post by **Civil War Man** » 2006-03-07 01:45pm

Lukedanieljames wrote:A jedi who can't kill another robot in 36 seconds, in a 1on1 fight with no distractions is having a tough time. luke finished vader quicker than that, obi-wan and maul finished in about the same time frame in the final portion of the fight in TPM.

Yeah, the Luke vs. Vader and Obi-Wan vs. Maul fights only lasted a few seconds from start to finish. Oh wait...

kenobi didn't beat the 4 in ROTS, he crushed them with a huge machine the size of a small house.

A cheap win is still a win. If those had been a few hundred B1s instead of 4 Magnaguards, they wouldn't all have been crushed in that one act.

well they are good for body guards because they are expensive, but they have great programing for combat of all types, as you can see from the previous URL in this thread.

Several hundred B1s firing at a single Jedi will eventually kill even the most powerful Jedi, and each individual B1 is cheaper to replace when it is destroyed. Magnaguards, on the other hand, are expensive to replace and seem to have a really bad record against all but the least of the Knights.

I don't see how it took 36 seconds for anakin and kenobi to dispatch 1 magnaguard each, and then another jedi held off 20 of them for a prolonged period of time? sounds like a contradiction of a higher canon level.

Where do you start counting the beginning of the fight? I saw ROTS a couple days ago, and the only reason the Obi-Wan fight lasted more than 10 seconds was because decapitating the droid didn't incapacitate it. Even taking that into account, it lasted nowhere near half a minute.

As for Anakin, do you think it was a coincidence that when he destroyed the Magnaguard, there were only 2 low-level droids standing between him and Palpatine? Recovering the Chancellor was the primary mission objective, after all.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2006-03-07 02:00pm

it should noted that the Bridge of invisible hand is confined space with full of sensitive equipment (the controll panels) and hostile personnel even if we ignore Gen Grievous himself, that's not the best place to use a lightsaber.

Lukedanieljames · Post by **Lukedanieljames** » 2006-03-07 02:13pm

Civil War Man wrote:
Yeah, the Luke vs. Vader and Obi-Wan vs. Maul fights only lasted a few seconds from start to finish. Oh wait...

there was lots of talking and drama in the luke vs vader fight, i'm talking about swords clashing only.

A cheap win is still a win. If those had been a few hundred B1s instead of 4 Magnaguards, they wouldn't all have been crushed in that one act.

he would have just pulled down a larger piece

Several hundred B1s firing at a single Jedi will eventually kill even the most powerful Jedi, and each individual B1 is cheaper to replace when it is destroyed. Magnaguards, on the other hand, are expensive to replace and seem to have a really bad record against all but the least of the Knights.

true, but you can only have so many b1's in a particular place, such as a shuttle craft or office.

Where do you start counting the beginning of the fight? I saw ROTS a couple days ago, and the only reason the Obi-Wan fight lasted more than 10 seconds was because decapitating the droid didn't incapacitate it. Even taking that into account, it lasted nowhere near half a minute.

the count it to start when the first staff touches lightsabre, to when the droids are dead and not fighting anymore.

there is only a 2 or 3 second time difference between anakin and obiwan's fights, anakin's being about 31-32 seconds

i know what your thinking, as you've already said "it can't be that long" well it was, and the guards did a pretty damn good job swordmanship wise. I have total respect for them after that showing.

As for Anakin, do you think it was a coincidence that when he destroyed the Magnaguard, there were only 2 low-level droids standing between him and Palpatine? Recovering the Chancellor was the primary mission objective, after all.

he KNEW the other guards weren't going to attack because of the orders of grievous, and he also knew that he couldn't help palpatine unless the magnaguards were dead, so he killed them, but it took him awhile

I suggest you put in ROTS into your dvd player and time the fight, its impressive

Lukedanieljames · Post by **Lukedanieljames** » 2006-03-07 02:18pm

Lord Revan wrote:it should noted that the Bridge of invisible hand is confined space with full of sensitive equipment (the controll panels) and hostile personnel even if we ignore Gen Grievous himself, that's not the best place to use a lightsaber.

It didn't seem to stop them when they were about to engage grievous before he blasted through the window, didn't seem to stop R2-D2 from sending out massive electrical surges,

yes there is equipment on the bridge, however saying they 'held back' because of it, there is no evidence, they were fully prepared for lightsabre combat, they infact showed no hesitations.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2006-03-07 02:28pm

Lukedanieljames wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:it should noted that the Bridge of invisible hand is confined space with full of sensitive equipment (the controll panels) and hostile personnel even if we ignore Gen Grievous himself, that's not the best place to use a lightsaber.
It didn't seem to stop them when they were about to engage grievous before he blasted through the window, didn't seem to stop R2-D2 from sending out massive electrical surges,

yes there is equipment on the bridge, however saying they 'held back' because of it, there is no evidence, they were fully prepared for lightsabre combat, they infact showed no hesitations.

it's still gonna effect the tactics they're gonna use, also the confined space will allow for the droids to keep pressure on the Jedi thus preventing them from using "secondary Force powers". also did you notice that no Nemodians were killed.

Lukedanieljames · Post by **Lukedanieljames** » 2006-03-07 02:32pm

Lord Revan wrote:it's still gonna effect the tactics they're gonna use, also the confined space will allow for the droids to keep pressure on the Jedi thus preventing them from using "secondary Force powers". also did you notice that no Nemodians were killed.

it affects the jedi tactics as much as the magnaguards. They aren't going to destroy their OWN bridge, that would hinder them big time. The jedi if anything might want to smash a few things so they can't be

a. tracked in the ship
b. tracked when leaving the ship
c. tracked when landing on the planet

in fact, it would be harder for the guards to fight in this environment than the jedi because their bodies are not as nimble.

Anakin and obiwan were so consumed by their battle with them its hard to imagine them beating off 2 or 3 more, let alone 20, and that is where I believe movie canon is over writing EU.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2006-03-07 02:40pm

Lukedanieljames wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:it's still gonna effect the tactics they're gonna use, also the confined space will allow for the droids to keep pressure on the Jedi thus preventing them from using "secondary Force powers". also did you notice that no Nemodians were killed.
it affects the jedi tactics as much as the magnaguards. They aren't going to destroy their OWN bridge, that would hinder them big time. The jedi if anything might want to smash a few things so they can't be

a. tracked in the ship
b. tracked when leaving the ship
c. tracked when landing on the planet

in fact, it would be harder for the guards to fight in this environment than the jedi because their bodies are not as nimble.

Anakin and obiwan were so consumed by their battle with them its hard to imagine them beating off 2 or 3 more, let alone 20, and that is where I believe movie canon is over writing EU.

first a Magnaguard electrostaff doesn't have the cutting power of a lightsaber (in fact since it's a bluntforce weapon it has no cutting power what so ever) and on bridge the Jedi can't use stuff like Force jump simply because there's no room.

Ryushikaze · Post by **Ryushikaze** » 2006-03-07 02:42pm

So, where exactly does it say the Magnarguards cost as much as a starship, or can we just classify that as meaningless hyperbole, like the Executor class nearly bankrupting the Empire?

FOG3 · Post by **FOG3** » 2006-03-07 02:50pm

Are the MagnaGuard cheaper then Droidekas?

Jedi performance against them has been less then stellar, and not only do they compact down nicely, but they're quite useful against conventional opponents. I'd think they wouldn't be that expensive given how widespread droideka deployment appeared to be.

Lukedanieljames · Post by **Lukedanieljames** » 2006-03-07 02:55pm

first a Magnaguard electrostaff doesn't have the cutting power of a lightsaber (in fact since it's a bluntforce weapon it has no cutting power what so ever) and on bridge the Jedi can't use stuff like Force jump simply because there's no room.

I agree with you, however it doesn't matter. Since it is a staff weapon, end A's location is just as important as end B's. Where as the jedi's lightsabre will always be able to swing from X to Y, the staff would get banged up against something, or get stuck like it infact did. So its even HARDER because they are being squeezed by space for their weapon which is deflecting lightsabre strikes by 2 powerful jedi. Imagine the lightsabre is coming down hard and the magnaguard moves his staff to block it but the BACK of the staff get snagged on a consol? he's dead. Infact thats exactly what happened and how the guard got its head cut off.

Now that I've typed this out, i have even more respect for them.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2006-03-07 02:57pm

FOG3 wrote:Are the MagnaGuard cheaper then Droidekas?

Jedi performance against them has been less then stellar, and not only do they compact down nicely, but they're quite useful against conventional opponents. I'd think they wouldn't be that expensive given how widespread droideka deployment appeared to be.

they're more expensive then droidekas

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-03-07 03:05pm

Ryushikaze wrote:So, where exactly does it say the Magnarguards cost as much as a starship, or can we just classify that as meaningless hyperbole, like the Executor class nearly bankrupting the Empire?

I don't know where this quote even comes from, but when I heard it the first time, I believe it was said that Magnaguards cost as much as a crapload of regular battle droids. It would be great if someone could provide the exact quote.

Base Delta Zero · Post by **Base Delta Zero** » 2006-03-07 03:27pm

Another thing we should remeber is that Anakin and Obi-Wan are among the best Jedi out there. Just because they can slaughter magnaguards in 30 seconds doesn't mean that's normal.

And the reason they didn't have 200 of those guys in AOTC is because they didn't have them back then.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2006-03-07 04:15pm

The MagnaGuards are specifically meant to help Grievous deal with Jedi, and actually, shielded droidekas actually seem to do a lot better than MagnaGuards even at that.

When it's Clone Troopers armed with DC-15s and PLX missile launchers, I'd definitely go for a few squads of battle droids (for the same price). Melee weapons don't contribute much on a modern (Star Wars) battlefield, unless you're a dumbass tradition-bound Jedi.

NRS Guardian wrote:Also, in Republic Commando, Delta Squad defeats two to four over the course of their missions.

Off the top of my head, Delta Squad takes out at least nine, actually. Possibly up to twelve, but definitely more than nine. They even meet three at once, at one point, although they have access to emplaced weapons there.

Also note that Tarfful defeats a MagnaGuard single handedly simply by pounding the shit out of it. Apparently the Wookie constitution is such that he could resist blows from its staff, and simply smacked it into submission.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-03-07 04:42pm

Meh, they were kind of neat since they found weapons to help deal with a lightsaber, other than that.....