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There was a good debate in another thread on SW Vs ST and I thought I'd carry some of it here where it belongs. Was Tarkin arrogant and cocky? That seems to be the wave everyone is riding, but I do not believe he was, here is my reasons, tell me if I'm insane

1. Tarkin stated that the deathstar was the ultimate power in the universe, - he was right, nothing was more powerful

2. After being asked to evacuate by one of his minions he said "evacuate in our moment of triumph? I think you over-estimate their chances" - He did not say THEY DIDN'T HAVE a chance, he said that they were over-estimating them. Tarkin knew there was a billion to one shot that a single proton torpedo could enter the exhaust port.

3. Tarkin scrambled fighters (vader was the one rounding up the pilots, but we have no idea who ordered the fighters deployed, however tarkin was in control. He also had turbo lasers trying to shoot them down, some being succesful. He had all the jamming come up and running aswell as the books and movie indicated.

He was being absolutely realistic in my opinion, he took defensive action, but he wasn't going to tuck tale and run from 20xwings after the Empire had been trying to destroy the rebellion for 2 decades. What more COULD he have done besides run, which have been stupid in my opinion? He can't change the fact that the exhaust port was a weakness, he isn' going to turn around, infact he even raised shields as Wedge I believe it was said they were bouncing through the stations field.

Anyway, all just my opinion,

others?

1. Tarkin stated that the deathstar was the ultimate power in the universe, - he was right, nothing was more powerful

Tarkin didnt say that; Motti did. And he was wrong, as the tall fella with breathing problems showed him moments later

2. After being asked to evacuate by one of his minions he said "evacuate in our moment of triumph? I think you over-estimate their chances" - He did not say THEY DIDN'T HAVE a chance, he said that they were over-estimating them. Tarkin knew there was a billion to one shot that a single proton torpedo could enter the exhaust port.

Basic overconfidence. Beyond that, whats your point? Theatre commanders generally dont start fucking statistical analyses in the middle of a battle

3. Tarkin scrambled fighters (vader was the one rounding up the pilots, but we have no idea who ordered the fighters deployed, however tarkin was in control. He also had turbo lasers trying to shoot them down, some being succesful. He had all the jamming come up and running aswell as the books and movie indicated.

Actually, if I recall the scene correctly, Vader was the one who observed they would have to destroy them ship-to-ship, and ordered the crews to their fighters


Tarkin wanted to end the Rebellion, TODAY, the whole point of travelling to the Yavin system. He wasnt about to let any hand-wavium or minutae get in the way of that. That is generally referred to as simple overconfidence and sheer arrogance.

Lukedanieljames wrote: 2. After being asked to evacuate by one of his minions he said "evacuate in our moment of triumph? I think you over-estimate their chances" - He did not say THEY DIDN'T HAVE a chance, he said that they were over-estimating them. Tarkin knew there was a billion to one shot that a single proton torpedo could enter the exhaust port.

No he didn't. At best he assumed the chance was that low. The fact that somebody actually considered the chance worth mentioning and advocated an evacuation rather indicates that it was a reasonable chance. The rebels seemed to agree as they attempted the attack in the first place which they wouldn't have done with a billion-to-one against probability of success.

3. Tarkin scrambled fighters (vader was the one rounding up the pilots, but we have no idea who ordered the fighters deployed, however tarkin was in control.

Like hell. Vader scrambled the fighters. At best Tarkin didn't override him. Unless you have evidence to the contrary.

He also had turbo lasers trying to shoot them down, some being succesful.

A small moon's worth of turbolasers succeeded in shooting down one X-Wing. Yeah that's sufficient defensive measures.

He was being absolutely realistic in my opinion, he took defensive action,

that didn't achive much of anything,

but he wasn't going to tuck tale and run from 20xwings after the Empire had been trying to destroy the rebellion for 2 decades.

Right. Why run just because your staff thinks those 20 X-Wings represent a credible threat? Especially as an evacuation would NOT have taken the DS out of the picture. It would merely have removed key personell on the however unlikely chance that things could go wrong. Yeah that's realistic.
IOW, either it works and the Rebellion is obliterated, or it doesn't (like in ANH) inwhich case at least key personell (which are presumably valuable to the empire) survive. Win-win situation.

What more COULD he have done besides run, which have been stupid in my opinion?

If something is stupid but works it's not stupid. The evacuated personell would have lived. Net gain.

He can't change the fact that the exhaust port was a weakness, he isn' going to turn around,

Wouldn't have worked anyway unless you think the DS outaccellerates the fighters

infact he even raised shields as Wedge I believe it was said they were bouncing through the stations field.

I tend to interpret that quote the same way but it is ambiguous as hell.

Burak Gazan wrote: Tarkin didnt say that; Motti did. And he was wrong, as the tall fella with breathing problems showed him moments later

oop sorry, regardless, vader choking the guy across the room is small in comparison to blowing a planet apart.

Basic overconfidence. Beyond that, whats your point? Theatre commanders generally dont start fucking statistical analyses in the middle of a battle

your right, but that doesn't mean tarkin didn't look at the situation before they engaged, which obviously he did as he said that the officer was over-estimating their chances, like a billion to one.

Actually, if I recall the scene correctly, Vader was the one who observed they would have to destroy them ship-to-ship, and ordered the crews to their fighters

he only told one of the officers that in the hallway, as tarkin is incharge of the station, i would suspect he relayed that to Vader, or Vader suggested it and tarkin agreed, EITHER way, tarkin wanted fighters out there.

Tarkin wanted to end the Rebellion, TODAY, the whole point of travelling to the Yavin system. He wasnt about to let any hand-wavium or minutae get in the way of that. That is generally referred to as simple overconfidence and sheer arrogance.

If tarkin knew there was another deathstar there at Yavin, he wouldn't have shown up, cause its too big of a threat, he knew the chances, a million or billion to one, and went for it. No one on earth would get on a billion to one, they'd bet against it.

Lukedanieljames wrote:1. Tarkin stated that the deathstar was the ultimate power in the universe, - he was right, nothing was more powerful

Nitpick, it wasn't Tarkin, it was the other dude in the conference room. In any case, its power doesn't mean a thing if you can't hit the fighters that are threatening you.

2. After being asked to evacuate by one of his minions he said "evacuate in our moment of triumph? I think you over-estimate their chances" - He did not say THEY DIDN'T HAVE a chance, he said that they were over-estimating them. Tarkin knew there was a billion to one shot that a single proton torpedo could enter the exhaust port.

Semantics. "I think you over-estimate their chances" is just a fancy way of saying "there is no possible way those fighters will be able to hit their target."

3. Tarkin scrambled fighters (vader was the one rounding up the pilots, but we have no idea who ordered the fighters deployed, however tarkin was in control. He also had turbo lasers trying to shoot them down, some being succesful. He had all the jamming come up and running aswell as the books and movie indicated.

I was under the impression it was Vader who launched only the fighters under his command. In the movie, it is he who gives the command to launch fighters. They tried shooting them down with the turbolasers, but that was ineffective. If he really wanted to kill the rebel fighters, he should have launched more TIEs.

He was being absolutely realistic in my opinion, he took defensive action, but he wasn't going to tuck tale and run from 20xwings after the Empire had been trying to destroy the rebellion for 2 decades. What more COULD he have done besides run, which have been stupid in my opinion? He can't change the fact that the exhaust port was a weakness, he isn' going to turn around, infact he even raised shields as Wedge I believe it was said they were bouncing through the stations field.

He took ineffective defensive action. Of course he's not going to run away, but he could at least have made an effort to actually destroy the attacker. Maybe he thought the attack was pitiful, and he wanted the rebel pilots to see how much they sucked, but when he was warned that there was a danger, he should have stopped dicking around and launched his anti-fighter weapons.

Guys a quick word before I get supper ready and debate later tonight

even though there is no evidence tarkin ordered the fighters out instead of vader, he did not object to it, which is in the sense the same thing, he wanted them out there.

If tarkin knew there was another deathstar there at Yavin, he wouldn't have shown up, cause its too big of a threat, he knew the chances, a million or billion to one, and went for it. No one on earth would get on a billion to one, they'd bet against it.

<cough>
There
only
was
one
Death Star
in
existance


And frankly, if someone other than an overconfident asshole was in charge, someone say, who would deploy a fighter screen and engage all those snubs somewhere around the limb of Yavin --- there wouldnt be a rebellion.

You can beat the rest of the what ifs to death, it won't alter the outcome of the actual battle

Lukedanieljames wrote:oop sorry, regardless, vader choking the guy across the room is small in comparison to blowing a planet apart.

It's not what Vader did, it's what he said. He said the power to destroy a planet is insignificant when compared to the power of the Force... and I think he'd know.

your right, but that doesn't mean tarkin didn't look at the situation before they engaged, which obviously he did as he said that the officer was over-estimating their chances, like a billion to one.

The officer had analysed the attack, Tarkin hadn't. Had he actually asked the odds, and decided to stay, I'd agree he wasn't arrogant.. but not even asking the odds made him arrogant.

he only told one of the officers that in the hallway, as tarkin is incharge of the station, i would suspect he relayed that to Vader, or Vader suggested it and tarkin agreed, EITHER way, tarkin wanted fighters out there.

It's not how I saw it.. It was chaos.. Vader saw what needed doing and did it. He's not the sort that wouldn't act without permission.. he'd use his initiative and not bother Tarkin with minor details.

If tarkin knew there was another deathstar there at Yavin, he wouldn't have shown up, cause its too big of a threat, he knew the chances, a million or billion to one, and went for it. No one on earth would get on a billion to one, they'd bet against it.

Again, he didn't ask the odds from the officer who'd completed the analysis... so he was guessing.

Another thing missed is that the Death Star had massive jamming systems which fouled the targeting computer; the original Guide to Weapons and Tech implied that only a pilot relying on the Force or some other intuition could've made the shot, because their equipment was inaccurate to the necessary level of precision needed for the strike.

Lukedanieljames wrote:Guys a quick word before I get supper ready and debate later tonight

even though there is no evidence tarkin ordered the fighters out instead of vader, he did not object to it, which is in the sense the same thing, he wanted them out there.

he didn't object because he didn't know.. for someone of Vaders stature such a thing would be too trivial to bother a Grand Moff with ffs. He doesn't tell them when to flush the loo either.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Another thing missed is that the Death Star had massive jamming systems which fouled the targeting computer; the original Guide to Weapons and Tech implied that only a pilot relying on the Force or some other intuition could've made the shot, because their equipment was inaccurate to the necessary level of precision needed for the strike.

True.. which is why I thought that had he asked the odds from the officer analysing the attack, and been told 250,000 to 1.. and stayed.. it would have been understandable.. hell even I'd have had too much pride to run with 100 to 1 odds.. howver he never asked.

Where does that 'billion to one' bullshit come from anyway?
And don't you dare use Han's comment after the kill.
1. The guy who told Tarkin obviously thought there was a if not serious than at least reasonable threat.
2. So, apparently, did the rebels. Otherwise they wouldn't have attacked in the first place. Luke's Force powers simply don't play into it because the Rebellion didn't know he had them. They obviously thought they had a a chance to take out the DS that was worth taking.
3. The evacuation wouldn't have done any harm whatsoever. Either the DS wins, in which case the worst Tarkin & co face is some humiliation (if that, it was a prudent move). Or it doesn't, in which case at least key personell survive.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Another thing missed is that the Death Star had massive jamming systems which fouled the targeting computer; the original Guide to Weapons and Tech implied that only a pilot relying on the Force or some other intuition could've made the shot, because their equipment was inaccurate to the necessary level of precision needed for the strike.

Which begs the question how the rebels, who had the DS plans and therefore should've known about the jamming, were nevertheless reasonably confident they could do it, as at that point they didn't know about Luke's Force potential. Indeed dialogue indicates that even after the jamming came up they seemed to think that the targetting computer had a reasonable chance of doing it.

Batman wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Another thing missed is that the Death Star had massive jamming systems which fouled the targeting computer; the original Guide to Weapons and Tech implied that only a pilot relying on the Force or some other intuition could've made the shot, because their equipment was inaccurate to the necessary level of precision needed for the strike.

Which begs the question how the rebels, who had the DS plans and therefore should've known about the jamming, were nevertheless reasonably confident they could do it, as at that point they didn't know about Luke's Force potential. Indeed dialogue indicates that even after the jamming came up they seemed to think that the targetting computer had a reasonable chance of doing it.

Maybe they did? Maybe by anyalizing it they where able to adept to counter act the Jamming?

Crossroads Inc. wrote: Maybe they did? Maybe by anyalizing it they where able to adept to counter act the Jamming?

That was what I was getting at. If, as per the EGWT, they didn't have a snowball's chance in hell, why did the Rebels bother with the attack in the first place? Evacuate, regroup, and try to think of something else. They didn't do that so obviously they thought they had a reasonable chance to pull this off.

Batman wrote:

Crossroads Inc. wrote: Maybe they did? Maybe by anyalizing it they where able to adept to counter act the Jamming?

That was what I was getting at. If, as per the EGWT, they didn't have a snowball's chance in hell, why did the Rebels bother with the attack in the first place? Evacuate, regroup, and try to think of something else. They didn't do that so obviously they thought they had a reasonable chance to pull this off.

Actually, the reason that they attacked is that they couldn't evacuate the planet in time. I would guess they could probably get off the fighters and a few of the smaller ships, along with some of the personel, but apparently, they would have lost a crippling number in the process. IIRC, the attack was "one in a million".

Batman wrote:

Lukedanieljames wrote: 2. After being asked to evacuate by one of his minions he said "evacuate in our moment of triumph? I think you over-estimate their chances" - He did not say THEY DIDN'T HAVE a chance, he said that they were over-estimating them. Tarkin knew there was a billion to one shot that a single proton torpedo could enter the exhaust port.

No he didn't. At best he assumed the chance was that low. The fact that somebody actually considered the chance worth mentioning and advocated an evacuation rather indicates that it was a reasonable chance. The rebels seemed to agree as they attempted the attack in the first place which they wouldn't have done with a billion-to-one against probability of success.

I believe the reason the Rebels attacked the Death Star was because it was their last and only chance. They had no choice. Not only that, but they knew they had a Jedi helping out. At least Mon Mothma knew, and she was the leader. The Imperials, on the other hand, believed it to just be a few pilots, nobody special. They also thought it was a last chance deal and the Rebels were grabbing at whatever possibility they could.

I would have stayed on board if I knew what Tarkin knew.

Batman wrote:

Lukedanieljames wrote: 3. Tarkin scrambled fighters (vader was the one rounding up the pilots, but we have no idea who ordered the fighters deployed, however tarkin was in control.

Like hell. Vader scrambled the fighters. At best Tarkin didn't override him. Unless you have evidence to the contrary.

IIRC, Vader said something like: "We'll have to take them down ship-to-ship." Technically, he didn't command any fighters to deploy, he was just stating the obvious. Anybody could have ordered the fighters to deploy.

Batman wrote:

Lukedanieljames wrote:He also had turbo lasers trying to shoot them down, some being succesful.

A small moon's worth of turbolasers succeeded in shooting down one X-Wing. Yeah that's sufficient defensive measures.

The only reason those thousands of turbolasers couldn't take down more X-Wings/Y-Wings was because the ships themselves were to small. It was stated by an Imperial leader (can't remember which one) during the attack.

This is when Vader said that ship-to-ship deal. (See above)

Batman wrote:

Lukedanieljames wrote: but he wasn't going to tuck tale and run from 20xwings after the Empire had been trying to destroy the rebellion for 2 decades.

Right. Why run just because your staff thinks those 20 X-Wings represent a credible threat? Especially as an evacuation would NOT have taken the DS out of the picture. It would merely have removed key personell on the however unlikely chance that things could go wrong. Yeah that's realistic.
IOW, either it works and the Rebellion is obliterated, or it doesn't (like in ANH) inwhich case at least key personell (which are presumably valuable to the empire) survive. Win-win situation.

Given what Tarkin knew, when one of my officers suggested we should leave, I would have turned around and slapped him across the face. "I've analyzed their attack pattern. There could be a threat."

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Another thing missed is that the Death Star had massive jamming systems which fouled the targeting computer; the original Guide to Weapons and Tech implied that only a pilot relying on the Force or some other intuition could've made the shot, because their equipment was inaccurate to the necessary level of precision needed for the strike.

Precisely. The Imperials did not know that there was a Force-adept leading the assualt, which would be the only feasible way to destroy the Death Star. They didn't even believe in the Force. Only Vader did, and nobody believed him.

Cos Dashit wrote: I believe the reason the Rebels attacked the Death Star was because it was their last and only chance. They had no choice. Not only that, but they knew they had a Jedi helping out.

Wherever from? At best Han knew Luke had dabbled in The Force a little.

At least Mon Mothma knew, and she was the leader.

Too bad she wasn't around for ANH.

I would have stayed on board if I knew what Tarkin knew.

Tarkin knew that one of his subordinates (why couldn't I think of that word earlier?) considered the threat serious enough to warrant evacuation. He declined. Unless he had positive information to the contrary that was a stupid thing to do.

Batman wrote: IIRC, Vader said something like: "We'll have to take them down ship-to-ship." Technically, he didn't command any fighters to deploy, he was just stating the obvious. Anybody could have ordered the fighters to deploy.

We know Vader considered ship-to-ship combat. We have no evidence that anybody else did. Therefor barring evidence to the contrary it was Vader who ordered the fighters out.

The only reason those thousands of turbolasers couldn't take down more X-Wings/Y-Wings was because the ships themselves were to small. It was stated by an Imperial leader (can't remember which one) during the attack.

IOW that defensive measure was insufficient.

Batman wrote: Right. Why run just because your staff thinks those 20 X-Wings represent a credible threat? Especially as an evacuation would NOT have taken the DS out of the picture. It would merely have removed key personell on the however unlikely chance that things could go wrong. Yeah that's realistic.
IOW, either it works and the Rebellion is obliterated, or it doesn't (like in ANH) inwhich case at least key personell (which are presumably valuable to the empire) survive. Win-win situation.

Given what Tarkin knew,

The extent of which you are of course now going to share,

when one of my officers suggested we should leave, I would have turned around and slapped him across the face. "I've analyzed their attack pattern. There could be a threat."

Which indicates there is a threat actually worth mentioning. Note that the officer doesn't suggest breaking off the attack and running, hes says that maybe Tarkin should evacuate. How pray tell is that going to lose them the battle?

Cos Dashit wrote: Precisely. The Imperials did not know that there was a Force-adept leading the assualt, which would be the only feasible way to destroy the Death Star. They didn't even believe in the Force. Only Vader did, and nobody believed him.

The rebels did not know they had a Force adept in their ranks when they came up with the plan. They thought it had a chance to succeed regardless.

I've always thought that if the man who was talking to Tarkin specified what he meant "the Rebels could be a threat", then perhaps Tarkin would've taken the attack more seriously.

That's my opinion at least.

I don't think it would have been good for Tarkin if he evacuated and the DS was destroyed. According to EU, Lemsliks or whatever the fuckers name is was tortured and repeatedly killed (clone body crap that I hate) for letting such a fatal flaw in the DS be.

If Tarkin evac-ed and the DS was still destroyed, I'm pretty sure the Emperor would have killed him.

Knife wrote:I don't think it would have been good for Tarkin if he evacuated and the DS was destroyed. According to EU, Lemsliks or whatever the fuckers name is was tortured and repeatedly killed (clone body crap that I hate) for letting such a fatal flaw in the DS be.
If Tarkin evac-ed and the DS was still destroyed, I'm pretty sure the Emperor would have killed him.

It's Lemmelisk IIRC. And I think you'd be wrong. Tarkin on DS and DS blows: Tarkin dead. Tarkin left and DS blows: Tarkin has the chance to run and hide.
Plus, there's no indication of Tarkin thinking 'if this doesn't work I'm screwed either way', he seemed supremely confident that the DS was invulnerable to a force like that.

The movie itself really gives the answer. Up until Luke decided to trust the Force instead of his computer, and Han showed up in the nick of time to attack Vader's TIE-group in the trench, the Rebellion was indeed on the verge of annihilation at that moment. The first two attacks had failed, most of the Rebel fighters had been shot down, they were down to their last group of pilots and there would never have been time for any surviving fighters after that to regroup for a fourth attack on the Death Star before Yavin-D would have been blasted into rubble. The Death Star's CAP screen and antiaircraft defences had actually proven quite effective in reducing the attack force sent against them almost to nothing.

And just as Luke was calming himself to take his shot, Darth Vader had him in the crosshairs.

If Han doesn't show up in time, Luke dies and Yavin-D is toast.

If Luke doesn't decide to trust the Force, his computer-guided shot probably misses just as Red Leader's shot missed and he maybe gets to see Yavin-D do the big firework before he dies.

Tarkin may have been a cocky SOB, but his confidence during the battle was not unreasonable by any stretch of military judgement.

Cos Dashit wrote:

Batman wrote:

Lukedanieljames wrote: 2. After being asked to evacuate by one of his minions he said "evacuate in our moment of triumph? I think you over-estimate their chances" - He did not say THEY DIDN'T HAVE a chance, he said that they were over-estimating them. Tarkin knew there was a billion to one shot that a single proton torpedo could enter the exhaust port.

No he didn't. At best he assumed the chance was that low. The fact that somebody actually considered the chance worth mentioning and advocated an evacuation rather indicates that it was a reasonable chance. The rebels seemed to agree as they attempted the attack in the first place which they wouldn't have done with a billion-to-one against probability of success.

I believe the reason the Rebels attacked the Death Star was because it was their last and only chance. They had no choice. Not only that, but they knew they had a Jedi helping out. At least Mon Mothma knew, and she was the leader. The Imperials, on the other hand, believed it to just be a few pilots, nobody special. They also thought it was a last chance deal and the Rebels were grabbing at whatever possibility they could.

Total BS, noone except for Han, Chewie, and the droids knew that Luke even had the ability to use the Force. And he was no Jedi at the time either, he'd only just "Taken the first steps, into a much larger world".

Cos Dashit wrote:I would have stayed on board if I knew what Tarkin knew.

Tarkin knew Jack and Shit about the rebel attack plans, and his subordinate realised that Jack had left town.

Cos Dashit wrote:

Batman wrote:

Lukedanieljames wrote: 3. Tarkin scrambled fighters (vader was the one rounding up the pilots, but we have no idea who ordered the fighters deployed, however tarkin was in control.

Like hell. Vader scrambled the fighters. At best Tarkin didn't override him. Unless you have evidence to the contrary.

IIRC, Vader said something like: "We'll have to take them down ship-to-ship." Technically, he didn't command any fighters to deploy, he was just stating the obvious. Anybody could have ordered the fighters to deploy.

Vader says imediatly afterwards "Get the crews to their fighters", gee that sounds like Vader ordering the fighter launch.

Cos Dashit wrote:

Batman wrote:

Lukedanieljames wrote:He also had turbo lasers trying to shoot them down, some being succesful.

A small moon's worth of turbolasers succeeded in shooting down one X-Wing. Yeah that's sufficient defensive measures.

The only reason those thousands of turbolasers couldn't take down more X-Wings/Y-Wings was because the ships themselves were to small. It was stated by an Imperial leader (can't remember which one) during the attack.

This is when Vader said that ship-to-ship deal. (See above)

Batman wrote:

Lukedanieljames wrote: but he wasn't going to tuck tale and run from 20xwings after the Empire had been trying to destroy the rebellion for 2 decades.

Right. Why run just because your staff thinks those 20 X-Wings represent a credible threat? Especially as an evacuation would NOT have taken the DS out of the picture. It would merely have removed key personell on the however unlikely chance that things could go wrong. Yeah that's realistic.
IOW, either it works and the Rebellion is obliterated, or it doesn't (like in ANH) inwhich case at least key personell (which are presumably valuable to the empire) survive. Win-win situation.

Given what Tarkin knew, when one of my officers suggested we should leave, I would have turned around and slapped him across the face. "I've analyzed their attack pattern. There could be a threat."

Apart from the fact that Tarkin hadn't analyzed their attack pattern, you think someone in command is gonna spend time in the middle of a battle to go and look over facts and figures when he needs to be on the command deck to give battle orders???

As I said Tarkin knew Jack Shit about the rebel battle plan, and was so overconfident in his station that the fact there was a chance that they could succede didn't even cross his mind. If he was a good commander, even if he wouldn't evacuate he would have asked his subordinate for the information and had additional fighters deployed to cover the exhaust ports.