StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Just not the Earth we're finding comfy now. I would of mentioned this in the other planet's thread but it made my eyeballs bleed.

Hoth: Hoth is described as an 'ice planet', a state earth has been through quite recently and large scale life struggled on barely.

Tatooine: And earth has had big desert periods before too, just before the ice-world bits actually (advancing ice ties up water, meaning everywhere else dries up).

Kamino: A mostly watery world? Go back in time to the heady days of the Pan Thassalic Ocean where, IIRC there was bugger all land (or ice cap incidentally).

Mustafar/Geonosis: And if you go back prior to when life colonised the land Earth looked quite a bit like Mustafar and Geonosis. Nasty and barren. Given the right time-slot and you can have a oxy-nitro atmosphere to boot. Along a developing crustal rift it would look exactly like the scene in ROTS (except without the big factory hoovering up all that free energy). Geonosis (the tiny bit we see) also looks fairly typical of a pre-land life planet. As for the geonosin 'natives', I might point out the 'native' peoples of places like Australia, NZ and the Americas. It's entirly feasable that they moved there something like 20-40K years ago.

Thank you for all of that. Well done.

Know anything about Coruscant's atmosphere? Or what it was like before terraformation, if it even underwent that?

Cos Dashit wrote:Know anything about Coruscant's atmosphere? Or what it was like before terraformation, if it even underwent that?

Coruscant was no doubt earth-like, otherwise they would never have started building it up the way they did in the first place. It has ice caps, too, though those are rather small.

This is rather like a summary of a planetarium "laser show" (hosted by, of course, Anthony Daniels) which is accompanying the Star Wars traveling exhibit currently residing at the Museum of Science in Boston.

Nevertheless, interesting.

The only problem is the comparison with Tatooine. Tatooine doesn't have any large standing bodies of water (in fact, I don't think it has any standing bodies of water at all). Even in its dry states before and after the ice ages, Earth had oceans (albeit reduced).

Tatooine would likely be a better comparison with a terraformed Mars. Mars has a unique geography that shows evidence that there may have been water there at some point in its history, even if it is all gone at the present. Tatooine, likewise, has evidence that there was once a good deal of water (see those ravines in ANH?), but in its "present" incarnation there is no water. It is likely Tatooine was more "Mars-like" in its ancient history and was then terraformed to a pseudoearth-like planet.

Tatooine would likely be a better comparison with a terraformed Mars. Mars has a unique geography that shows evidence that there may have been water there at some point in its history, even if it is all gone at the present. Tatooine, likewise, has evidence that there was once a good deal of water (see those ravines in ANH?), but in its "present" incarnation there is no water. It is likely Tatooine was more "Mars-like" in its ancient history and was then terraformed to a pseudoearth-like planet.

Actually, Tatooine was originally a jungle world, but was bombarded almost to complete annihilation by the Rakata during the waning days of their Infinite Empire, when the slaves held there rebelled. Presumably, most of the planet's ecosystems were destoyed and its oceans vaporized, but when desert engulfed the world, there was still enough residual moisture in the atmosphere to make the place inhabitable.

Actually, Tatooine was originally a jungle world, but was bombarded almost to complete annihilation by the Rakata during the waning days of their Infinite Empire, when the slaves held there rebelled. Presumably, most of the planet's ecosystems were destoyed and its oceans vaporized, but when desert engulfed the world, there was still enough residual moisture in the atmosphere to make the place inhabitable.

I did not know that, interesting.

In that sense, Tatooine seems akin to a world-wide version of the Sahara Desert (which it was, incidentally, meant to be by George Lucas). The Sahara was once a jungle, and became a desert due to natural disasters.

dworkin wrote:Hoth: Hoth is described as an 'ice planet', a state earth has been through quite recently and large scale life struggled on barely.

There is still controversy among palaeo-climatologists as to whether the equatorial oceans were frozen over in the 'Snowball Earth' period.

I think you might be getting confused between the Pleistocene Galaciation and the Cryogenian Snowball Earth event (which is the last time Earth is thought to have been frozen for pole to pole), which ended in the Edicaran Period 580 million years ago. That is not what I call 'quite recently'.

As for large-scale life struggling through the Snowball Earth event, there is no evidence of multicellular life before the Cryogenian. The earliest evidence of multicellulare life doesn't date back any earlier than Cambrian (542 million years ago or so).

You might be interested in the article at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowball_earth. It is particularly interesting at the point where it explains why a snowball planet must have brilliantly blue cloudless skies.

Tatooine: And earth has had big desert periods before too, just before the ice-world bits actually (advancing ice ties up water, meaning everywhere else dries up).

The sea levels were about a hundred metres lower during major glaciations. Compared with oceans nine kilometres deep, that is a long way from 'everything drying up'. Conditions are indeed arid when water is effectively a rock, but you don't get a dusty desert so much as an ice-sheet. And besides, with temperatures that low the vapour pressure of water (ice) is negligible. Moisture-farming the wind would be very unproductive, especially compared with quarrying ice from glaciers.

Kamino: A mostly watery world? Go back in time to the heady days of the Pan Thassalic Ocean where, IIRC there was bugger all land (or ice cap incidentally).

Bollocks! The Panthalassic Ocean existed at the same time as the supercontinent Pangaea. Dry land surface area was about the same as now.

Just a tip, wiki is not considered a valid source here.

Penny Arcade does a masterful job as to demonstrating why here.

I'm not saying wht is presented above is necessarily wrong, but sources by experts, rather then collective agreement as to what "feels right" is the standard here.

Doctor Doom wrote:The Sahara was once a jungle, and became a desert due to natural disasters.

The Sahara might once have been a jungle, I suppose. What with continental drift and all that slab of land might once have been at a latitude where jungles are possible. But it certainly hasn't been a jungle at all recently, even by geological time scales.

The Sahara Desert is about 2.5 million years old, but it has expanded significantly in the last 3,000-4,000 years. About 1,000 years BC the Sahael was further north, and the Mediterranean shores of Africa were a savannah grassland. There was a desert in the Sahara, but it was smaller and probably not as dry. Even in Roman times Cyrenaica and Libya were highly productive grain-exporting provinces.

As for natural disasters expanding the Sahara: most of the explanations put forward suggest it was a man-made disaster of some sort--agricultural activity, burning-off, the introduction of domestic animals, or a combination.

Can't Wikipedia, however, be used as a preliminary source in a non-controversial topic?

Ender wrote:Just a tip, wiki is not considered a valid source here.

Fair enough. Wiki is convenient, but I'm sure I can cite the epochs of the Snowball Earth period and the first evidence of multicellular life, fact that Panthalassa was contemporary with Pangaea, and the age of the Sahara from other sources.

Here's one for the relative and absolute timing of the Snowball Earth and the first evidence of multicellular life: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3721481.stm

Here's one for the contemporary existence of Pangaea with Panthalassa: http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/vwl ... ngea4.html.

Here's one for the claim that the Sahara was a grassland, not a jungle: http://www.endangeredspecieshandbook.or ... frica1.php.

I'm not saying wht is presented above is necessarily wrong, but sources by experts, rather then collective agreement as to what "feels right" is the standard here.

I hope that Dworkin is subject to the same rules that I am. I notice that he didn't provide any backing whatsoever for his assertions.

CarsonPalmer wrote:Can't Wikipedia, however, be used as a preliminary source in a non-controversial topic?

This topic is evidently controversial.

This thread is just making the rough point that some of the 'extreme' planets we see in SW do not require vast leaps of imagination to presume.
Earth had similar prevailing conditions at one time or another.

I'll concede on the Ocean bit, I can never remember the pre-pangaeic land and water masses corectly. Still, all Kamino really needs is slightly more water than earth just as all Tatooine needs is less.

I suspect however that Hoth is a planet undergoing extreme glaciation much like our recent ice ages. It is called an 'ice planet' everywhere except the geology journals and in the detailed descriptor of the Imperial Survey Corps. The Rebels also chose an extremly crappy bit betting (wrongly) that it would help in evading detection and prevent a serious Imperial ground assault.

Agemegos, are you in the earth sciences?

At any rate, for a "harsh desert world" look no further than the age of dinosaurs. In the interiors of the supercontinents, daytime highs were regularly above 140 Faranheit.

dworkin wrote:This thread is just making the rough point that some of the 'extreme' planets we see in SW do not require vast leaps of imagination to presume.

Well, that is blindingly obvious, since Star Wars' planets with only one biome have usually been criticised for lack of imagination.

Besides, your 'just' is dishonest. Your original post did much more than that.

Earth had similar prevailing conditions at one time or another.

No it didn't. It was never a dry, dusty desert like Tatooine, and it was never a water-world like Kamino.

I'll concede on the Ocean bit, I can never remember the pre-pangaeic land and water masses corectly.

Don't bother with the details (though they do check out). Remember the general principles. Continental crust is in hydrostatic equilibrium in the mantle, and in a rough equilibrium between orogeny and erosion, so its height and extent have been generally the same since it formed.

Still, all Kamino really needs is slightly more water than earth just as all Tatooine needs is less.

Kamino needs enough extra water to drown all [but the highest] mountains, which is on the order 80% again as much water. Tatooine needs practically no water at all, certainly at least 80% less than Earth has. Those conditions seem very likely to be within the range of possibilities for the formation of planets. But you were lying when you said that such conditions had pertained on Earth, and you are lying again when you say that the difference in the amount of water needed is "slight".

I suspect however that Hoth is a planet undergoing extreme glaciation much like our recent ice ages.

If Hoth were like Earth during our recent ice ages (ie. in the Pleistocene, ending about 10,000 years ago) it would have oceans, dry land, and forests--all around the equator and in the low-mid latitudes.

Earth has not been what anyone would call an 'ice planet' for at least 580 million years.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Agemegos, are you in the earth sciences?

No, I'm not. But that doesn't make me wrong.

If you are in the earth sciences, and if I am wrong, cite some fucking evidence.

At any rate, for a "harsh desert world" look no further than the age of dinosaurs. In the interiors of the supercontinents, daytime highs were regularly above 140 Faranheit.

And around the edges of the supercontinents were super-lush forests, swamps, woodlands, and grasslands. And seventy percent of the surface was covered with fricking oceans. This is not an example of Earth being anything like Tatooine.

Agemegos wrote:

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Agemegos, are you in the earth sciences?

No, I'm not. But that doesn't make me wrong.
If you are in the earth sciences, and if I am wrong, cite some fucking evidence.

Kindly provide some evidence of him doubting you because from where I stand Chewie is simply curious because your postings DO evidence some knowledge about that area of expertise (at least to a layman like me), and he wants to know where that comes from.

Batman wrote:

Agemegos wrote:

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Agemegos, are you in the earth sciences?

No, I'm not. But that doesn't make me wrong.
If you are in the earth sciences, and if I am wrong, cite some fucking evidence.

Kindly provide some evidence of him doubting you because from where I stand Chewie is simply curious because your postings DO evidence some knowledge about that area of expertise (at least to a layman like me), and he wants to know where that comes from.

Thanks, Batman. I was inquiring because Agemenos was providing some concise, well-thought out arguments and citing his sources well, using many of the same sources I did when I did a lecture presentation on the Snowball Earth hypothesis. I felt he was doing it so well he must certainly be schooled formally in it.

Of course, he's charging around this thread with a massive fucking chip on his shoulder, so he can stick his head between his legs and lick his own ass for all I care.

Batman wrote:

Agemegos wrote:

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Agemegos, are you in the earth sciences?

No, I'm not. But that doesn't make me wrong.
If you are in the earth sciences, and if I am wrong, cite some fucking evidence.

Kindly provide some evidence of him doubting you

It is possible that I misunderstood his intent. He went on to use deserts in the interiors of supercontinents as evidence that was supposed to be somehow relevant to planets completely covered with desert and without oceans, in the particular context of an argument over whether Earth was ever in such a condition. That made it seem that he was arguing against me, and pretty handy with the fallacies. So I took his questions as an ad hominem. I think it was a understandable mistake, in the context.

As for citing evidence, how is it that no-one else bothers, but that I get a reprimand because my citations aren't scholarly enough?

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Of course, he's charging around this thread with a massive fucking chip on his shoulder, so he can stick his head between his legs and lick his own ass for all I care.

I suppose this dudgeon excuses you for having to concede that hot deserts in the interiors of supercontinents do not a desert world make.

Agamegos, please relax. Good God, no one is flaming you or being stupid.

Agemegos, please read this thread.
That's what this thread was inspired by I assume.

CarsonPalmer wrote:Agamegos, please relax. Good God, no one is flaming you or being stupid.

No? Dworkin is posting bullshit assertions about Earth having been an ice planet, a desert world like Tatooine, and completely covered in oceans. And he sticks to it, adding more bullshit, when his errors are pointed out. CaptainChewbacca considers that if you want to see a planet with no oceans at all, you don't have to look any further than deserts in supercontinental interiors at a time when Earth had wider oceans than it has now. Perhaps my standards are high, but I call that stupid.

Also, CaptainChewbacca tells me to kiss my own arse because I was right and he was wrong and wants an excuse not to admit it. I call that both 'stupid' and 'flaming'.