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This is an attempt to rank the Jedi we've seen in the films by power levels. This is raw offensive capability supplemented by Force abilities displayed NOT a measure of wisdom or diplomacy or any other manner of measuring a Jedi's power. We're talking about Thunderdome like situation - two man enter one man leave type combat who comes out on top using lightsaber dueling and force using abilty combined.

This is also a contest that considers each Jedi at his peak and not his potential ie. such as Anakin - yes we know from many sources he would have been the most powerful Jedi ever but fact is he never achieved that potentil so we must look at him as of Mustafar right before the great burn as his zenith of power - Vader is treated separately. Nor do we look at their diminshed abilties either Obi Wan on this list is Obi Wan as of Mustafar not ANH or beyond.

Film examples should back up your assertions but EU examples are welcome as well.


Here are your choices:

Yoda
Obi Wan
Anakin
Mace Windu
Palpatine
Dooku
Qui Gon Jinn
Darth Maul
Luke Skywalker
Darth Vader

My list and reasons

1. Mace Windu - controversial as this selection might be as #1 I have to say that upon reflection of what we have seen in the films Mace impresses the hell out of me. Fact is he defeated Palpatine fair and square - a feat Yoda could not achieve and Yoda went in there ready and expecting what he got, Mace on the other hand was handed quite a nasty surprise when he tried to arrest Palpatine and reacted well, adjusting and eventually overcoming the odds. Yoda was holding on for dear life by the end of his duel with Palpatine and he knew what he was facing.

As a counterpoint one could argue that Mace was highly specialized in taking on Sith with his unique Jedi Lightsaber Form but that is debateable.

Mace was also the first Jedi to pierce the veil of the dark side and sense the direct threat to the Jedi, a feat Yoda had tried since AOTC and failed.

Mace was considered the most 'powerful' of the Jedi while Yoda was always considered the 'wisest' (Anakin in AOTC) I think that is a clear dilineation of who has the offensive edge in the order and who is the smartest/wisest from a Jedi's POV not just a layman.

Mace's solo episode in The Clone Wars cartoon while considered by many to be wank shows more of his offensive capabilities.

Again in the Clone wars cartoons Mace's actions during the Attack on Coruscant showed him doing some pretty nifty things like taking out whole squadrons of fighters and effortlessly slicing his way through hordes of battle droids as well as forcing Grevious to retreat and injuring him.

I haven't read any of his EU exploits so I'm not sure how he stacks up in that arena but I stand by my decision. When it comes to raw offensive power I have to give this one to Mace. Wanna train a Jedi, find the truth of a matter or simply need a shoulder to cry on you go to Yoda. Wanna whoop some ass - Mace is his name.


2. Palpatine - Veil of the Darkside that kept the entire Jedi order in the dark for over 10 years, defeating three Jedi Masters effortlessly in a matter of moments, defeating Yoda, effortlessly defeating the Chosen One's son, holding his own against the greatest Jedi lightsaber duelist for some time and I take Vader's inaction for over 20 years as a tacit admission that Vader couldn't take him - he was planning to kill him as Anakin right after Mustafar yet 20 years later Vader knew he couldn't take Palpatine without help.

Palpatine is da man. Let us not venture into Wankatine, we're talking Palpy until he takes the plunge into the Deathstar's core. If not for Mace's handing him his ass he would have definately vaulted to the top spot.

3. Anakin - WHOA. You say. How is that possible? Anakin was hardly as powerful as Yoda. Well let me posit these examples and tell me what you think.

Anakin fought THE Soresu master to a standstill and it was only his impatience that led to his defeat and not his lack of power or form. Obi Wan was clearly pressed throughout that duel to his limit while Anakin dominiated throughout without flagging in endurance or resolve. Anakin would have defeated Obi Wan in time if not for some bad judgment on his part.

Anakin defeated several Jedi Knights and Masters at once - a feat only replicated by Palpatine in his office - in the Jedi temple including the Jedi tasked with teaching the others how to duel.

Anakin felt that he could destroy Palpatine after Mustafar - hyperbole I know but outside sources support this claim such as Lucas' commentary, alternate video game endings (Ep III game for PSII) and Palaptine's own assertion to Yoda that Anakin woudl be more powerful than either of them.

Anakin's defeat of Count Dooku - considered one of the finest duelist in the Order and powerful enough to hold off Yoda indefinately- fair and square by raw power and talent without turning to the dark side was a clear indication that he was near the top of the order at the beggining of ROTS and by Mustafar he feels he is far more powerful than even that. (Anakin's speech to Padme about his new powers)


4. Yoda Didn't think I'd see the old Jedi Master this far down on the list but when one really looks at offensive feats Yoda seems to fall a little short. He is defeated by Palpatine fair and square even when he goes in there with the advantage of surprise and knowing his enemy.

Yoda also does not seem to stack up well to Palpatine's apprentice Dooku. One gets the sense from the duel on Geonosis that Yoda was really pushing it in that duel and that in terms of force powers they were fairly evenly matched and only in raw swordsman ship does he drive Dooku back. Even then not a clean win for Yoda, it probably would have taken more time to take Dooku and a slip of fate may have turned that duel in Dooku's favor at any time. I didn't get the sense that Yoda was clearly dominant in that duel as Anakin was to Obi Wan in Mustafar.

When it comes to wisdom and force abilties not directly linked to offense Yoda would be #2 on this list (Palpy at #1) but he takes a tumble in the fighting arena.


5. Count Dooku - Dooku has all the requistotes of a Sith lord (not just an apprentice.) he's got the lightning (a feat Maul did not possess in TPM) the manipulative finesse (Clone War) and the dueling ability: He easily defeats a Jedi Master and his powerful apprentice in a matter of minutes, holds off one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order after engaging the other two. Later on once again easily defeats Obi Wan Kenobi (THE Soretsu master) and is only defeated by a clearly more powerful Anakin Skywalker who is coming into his own power wise. As a counterpoint to Anakin's strength Dooklu easily handed Asaj Ventres her ass and she gave Anakin trouble throughout the Clone Wars cartoons. Dooku also is routinely engaged by more than one oppoenent showing his defensive and offensive strength cannot simply be overcome with numbers.


6. Obi Wan - THE Sorestu master confirmed by Mace Windu himself in the ROTS novelization he clearly is the Rocky Balboa of the Jedi Knights, refusing to admit when he is outmatched and hanging on through guts and courage through some grueling battles. Yes he is handly defeated by Dooku but this could be explained by a fault of his style (soretsu may not be able to counter the precision of Form II as well as other forms as Shien obviously does) Since he holds his on against Anakin who is clearly more powerful than Dooku and in fact defeates Anakin through guile rather than power this may be true and a reason for such a poor showing - twice - against Dooku.

Obi Wan also defeats Darth Maul - once again through guile rather than brute force. But it cannot be denied that Obi Wan is a heavy hitter of his own in the order for note his defeat of Greavious in rather short order.


7. Luke Skywalker - Finally Luke makes an appearance in this list - it also shows how far he has to go by ROTJ that he is hardly on the same level as the masters and knights that came before him.

Luke's feats in ROTJ show that he has matured greatly from his disastrous outing in ESB. Luke is cearly more comfrotable with his saber than a blaster now (note in ESB he carries both and tends to go for his blaster before his saber throughout the film) and takes up blaster bolt deflection and multiple oppoenents including Boba Fett during his battle with Jabba.

He defeats the Rancor with his bare hands (sort of)

On the Deathstar he is clearly more powerful than on Bespin and is holding his own against his father who toyed with him throughout most of the duel on Bespin. It should be noted however that Palpatine is clearly suggesting to us that Luke is channelling the darkside throughout some of that duel when he encourages him (Good, use your aggressive feelings boy) whether this is a ploy by Palpatine to confuse Luke or a statement of fact that Luke is indeed channeling the dark side is up for grabs.

Luke however is clearly in a dark side rage when he does finally defeat his father so one can argue that Luke's offensive punch is sort of diluted by the fact that he has to turn to the darkside to become that powerful so is it really fair to use the end of the duel with Vader as a benchmark? Who can say? In the end however it is obvious Luke is more powerful than Vader throughout the duel and even Vader's internal monolugue confirms this in the ROTJ novelization when he realizes that Luke can defeat him and the thought had never occured to him before. This is all before the Dark side rage attack.

8. Darth Vader - this may seem controversial as well this far down on the list but frankly all we ever see Vader do is take on his son who is a half trained Jedi and defeat a much older and diminshed Obi Wan who in the end simply gives up anyway after holding off Vader for some time. Lucas the man who created and evisioned the character describes him as a cripple in a walking iron lung who is a shadow of his former self. Vader is powerful in other ways but when it comes to offense dueling wise I just don't see him holding off the more acrobatic members at the top of this list or have the ability to to counter Dooku's precision much less his lightening. How far he has fallen after Mustafar.

9. Darth Maul - a fanboy favorite but woefully inadequate compared to what else we've seen in the films and on this list. IMO Maul was a representation of what you could do purely physically with the Force in terms of speed, jumping, strength.

He was over specialized in physically overcoming his opponents but in a straight up match against a Jedi that could bring all the powers of the Force to the table like a Yoda or a Windu or anakin Maul would go down hard and fast. It was only the fact that Qui Gon and Obi Wan wanted to try and capture him and Qui Gon's distractions with trying to keep Obi Wan alive throghout that duel that allowed Maul to be as successful as he was. It also helped that Qui Gon was trapped in a location that limited his Ataru form as Obi Wan noted in Labyrinth of Evil that helped Maul overcome the older more experienced master (and Qui Gon was indeed past his prime physically as he himself noted in TPM novelization)

10. Qui Gon Jinn - I'm sure that in his prime he was a powerufl Jedi in his own right but clearly in comparison to some of the others on this list Qui Gon could be found lacking in the physical dept. His form though calling for acrobatics and such he did not engage in much of that (as opposed to Obi Wan in TPM who bounced around like a flea on crack) and in his first duel with Maul on Tatooine he was clearly winded and exhausted by the effort.

The EU states that he regualrly dueled with Mace but by TPM he was simply in decline as Obi Wan was by ANH.

I apologize for the length.

It's been done.

SuperShadow wrote:Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader = 27,700
Darth Sidious/Palpatine (with Kyber Crystal) = 20,500
Yoda = 17,700
Luke Skywalker = 14,500
Leia Organa Solo = 14,500
Aenon Jurtis (Most powerful Jedi Master prior to Yoda) = 14,200
Shintor Beerus (ancient Jedi Master) = 13,900
Ce Ce Denowai (the most powerful female Jedi) = 13,700
Ben (Jhon) Skywalker = 13,700
Anakin Solo (New Jedi Order novels) = 13,700
Darth Plagueis (Darth Sidious' master) = 13,600
Count Dooku/Tyranus = 13,500
Obi-Wan Kenobi = 13,400
Kaja Sinis (the first Jedi) = 13,250
Kyle Katarn = 12,200
Mace Windu = 12,000
Darth Maul = 12,000
General Grievous (New Episode 3 Villain) = 11,900
Kit Fisto = 11,800
Exar Kun (Dark Lord of the Sith during the Sith War) = 11,700
Shindor = 11,500 (Dark Jedi from Episode 7)
Yaddle = 11,300
Xanatos' (Qui-Gon Jinn's former apprentice) = 11,300
Darth Seer (Founder of the modern Sith Order) = 11,200
Plo Koon = 11,100
Mara Jade = 11,000
Darth Malak (Knights of the Old Republic video game) = 10,800
Jedi Master Corran Horn (from the New Jedi Order series of Star Wars novels) = 10,700
Ki Adi Mundu = 10,600
Darth Bane = 10,500
Nebar Foxis (Jedi Knight played by SuperShadow in Episode 3) = 10,400
Joruus C'baoth = 10,350
Darth Imperius = 10,300
Shaak Ti = 10,300
Tahari Vehlia (New Jedi Order novels) = 10,300
Echuu-Shen Jon = 10,200
Darth Revan = 10,200 (Knights of the Old Republic video game)
Jedi Master Kam Solusar (New Jedi Order novels) = 10,100
Aalya Secura = 10,000
Qui-Gon Jinn = 10,000
Average Jedi = 10,000
Assajj Ventress = 9,600
Naga Sadow (Dark Lord of the Sith that fled to Yavin 4)= 9,400
Jedi Master Adeus Hust = 9,300
Jacen Solo (New Jedi Order novels) = 9,000
Jaina Solo (New Jedi Order novels) = 9,000
Jedi Master Cihgal (New Jedi Order novels) = 9,000
Darth Rage (Sidious' apprentice after Darth Maul) = 9,000
Jedi Master Tionne Solusar (New Jedi Order novels) = 8,500
Dezar Looger (Dagobah Dark Jedi) = 8,400
Xio Jade = 7,400
Chewbacca = 7,200
Tylus Liv = 7,100
Aurra Sing = 7,000
Need To be Considered for Training as a Jedi = 7,000
Padme Amidala = 4,700
Danni Quee (New Jedi Order Jedi Scientist)= 4,500
Beru Lars = 3,700
Shmi = 3,300
Lando Calrissian = 3,300
Boba Fett= 1,500
Han Solo = 1,500
Jango Fett = 1,500
Owen Lars = 1,500

1st - Palpatine. The first Sith Lord to show up for a long time, even his apprentices were badass. Not only did his Force-lightning knocked the Dooku out of Yoda, he also seduced "The Chosen One" into coming over to the Dark Side of the Force. I also believe he threw the fight between himself and Mace, in order to finally win over Anakin. He was also on the verge of immortality.

Although we did not see him in many fights, he did take out some big names. Yoda, he defeated, however close. And during his arrest, he took down three Jedi knights before "losing" to Mace. And a short while after that, he threw him out the window with lightning that came out of his fingers. Hotdamn.

As if that weren't enough, his three apprentices definately reflected his ability with the Force. Maul took down Qui-Gon while fighting Obi-Wan at the same time, Dooku/Tyrannus beat Obi-Wan and Anakin at the same time, and then held his own against Yoda. And who can forget Darth Vader, killer of the Jedi between Episodes III and IV.

2nd - Yoda. Possibly the most Force-powerful of them all, he also is still up there in terms of lightsabre skills despite his age. If he himself would have gone after Anakin, little Annie would be a stain on the floor. The only reason he didn't was because he had bigger fish to fry, i.e. Palpatine. He absorbs Force-lightning throughout the fight, and the ending was debateable. It was a very close match.

3rd - Obi-Wan Kenobi. Although he himself was not on the Council, he definately had buddies in the upper echelons of power. Yoda, and Mace Windu throughout the films and novels talked with him as if an equal. He also beat down Anakin, a budding young Sith that was just entering (and about to leave, thanks Obi-Wan!) his prime. In addition, he took down Sith Lord Darth Maul while he was still a padawan. Very impressive.

4th - Count Dooku. Because Stravo stated this was a one-on-one between Jedi, Dooku belongs high on the list. His unique old-school lightsabre technique, which included mostly thrusts and parries, baffled some of the most experianced and promising Jedi. During his fight with Anakin and Obi-Wan in AotC, he clearly had the upper hand, and kept it throughout, despite Anakin's wielding of two blades. His Force powers are also considerable, Force-lightning and such, although everything he threw at Yoda didn't work. The Force-lightning nearly had him though, as in the AotC novel it stated that Yoda turned away the lightning, but definately not easily.

5th - Anakin Skywalker. "The Chosen One", he was called. Highest midichlorian count in the films, he was very Force-adept. The reason he is in the middle of the list is simply because he was a slow learner, and the promise he showed was quickly snuffed out by Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi. Although he was incredibly gifted with a lightsabre, he was prone to bad choices and overconfidence, as shown in AotC with Dooku, and RotS with Obi-Wan. Unfortunately, he would be much higher on the list had his legs and an arm been hacked of by his dear old Master. Oh well. You had your chance boy!

6th - Mace Windu. Possibly the most powerful of the Jedi Council, and also possibly the most wanked. The only reason I placed him so high on the list was because of his military skills. He defeated Jango Fett, whom Obi-Wan had trouble fighting. Not to mention his leadership during the Clone Wars. My favorite attribute was his ability to skirt on the edge of the Dark Side, to see through the cloud that surrounded the Force.

7th - Darth Vader. Extremely powerful with the Force, my main example is the fight between himself and Luke in ESB. Also, in between Episodes III and IV, he killed several Jedi, including some Jedi Masters. He remains competent with a lightsabre, despite his physical shortcomings.

8th - Luke Skywalker. Looking at his training:skill ratio, I have to say I am extremely impressed. Not only does Luke defeat his father, one of the most powerful Sith of all time, he does it by channelling a bit of the Dark Side. Another worthy mention is that he was able to stand up to Palpatine. He was luring him to the Dark Side, and Luke resisted and won, even though Luke had much more to lose than his father. Anakin was worried about his punani connection, and his future babies. Luke had friends, his sister, and an entire Rebellion that was counting on him. It would have been easier for Luke to just give up, but he stuck it to Palpatine.

9th - Darth Maul. He was a fairly skilled padawan Sith. He did do very well in taking on two Jedi with his unique double-bladed lightsabre. But his opponnents were nothing to write home about, a young Obi-Wan and a hippie Jedi.

10th - Qui-Gon Jinn. I lost faith in ole' Qui-Gon during his desert standoff with Maul. It was obvious throughout the fight that he did not know what he was doing against a true Sith. And during his fight later, he needed Obi-Wan to keep a distraction going so Qui-Gon could stay alive. Once Obi-Wan was out of the picture, Maul stabbed Qui-Gon in a couple of minutes, and did not go on the defensive at any time during the bout.

8. Darth Vader - this may seem controversial as well this far down on the list but frankly all we ever see Vader do is take on his son who is a half trained Jedi and defeat a much older and diminshed Obi Wan who in the end simply gives up anyway after holding off Vader for some time. Lucas the man who created and evisioned the character describes him as a cripple in a walking iron lung who is a shadow of his former self. Vader is powerful in other ways but when it comes to offense dueling wise I just don't see him holding off the more acrobatic members at the top of this list or have the ability to to counter Dooku's precision much less his lightening. How far he has fallen after Mustafar.

I object to the "older and diminished" Obi-Wan being a significant factor- while it's true an older Jedi is at a disadvantage compared to one in his prime, we know from Count Dooku, Yoda and Palpatine- all of whom are older than Obi-Wan at the time of ANH (in the case of Count Dooku, much older), that an older Jedi/Sith can still fight with the best of them. The best rationalization is that Vader was restricting his movements with the Force. Vader should easily be able to counter lightning if he has his lightsabre, and we know from Dark Lord that he adjusted his style to compensate for his weaknesses quite effectively, effortlessly defeating multiple twirly-wirly acrobatic Jedi at a time on Kashyyyk, in a matter of several swipes. As for Obi-Wan giving up, that's because Obi-Wan knew he was screwed anyway.

Wasn't Obi-wan simply stalling for time to let Luke & co. get back to the Falcon and escape?

Darth Yoshi wrote:Wasn't Obi-wan simply stalling for time to let Luke & co. get back to the Falcon and escape?

Novelization says no. Besides, think about it- would you stall someone (and then give up your own life!) so your friends could escape if you could defeat him, or would you just outright defeat him and then get away? From no rational point of view does it make sense that Obi-Wan could've beaten Vader, but didn't because he'd rather give up.

stravo wrote:Anakin fought THE Soresu master to a standstill and it was only his impatience that led to his defeat and not his lack of power or form.

Actually during that particular duel I think Obi Wan used Aturai(sp) which was his master's form (and which he trained to use until Qui Gon died and he decided to use Soresu).[/b]

*sigh*

The question of Obi-Wan Kenobi, vis-a-vis Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader is ... oh so complicated.

How can we accept Lucas' et als comentary, and the official literature that Anakin was, was more powerful than Obi-Wan at the time of RotS, when we take into consideration the final duel? I of course, refer specifically to the Force pushing contest between the two inside the control room.

No one, not even in the novelisation its self (IIRC) has actually offered up any kind of explaination as to why Anakin's Force push didn't win out over Obi-Wan's. What more evidence is required of their (at this point) even standing in raw Force power?

I know, I know, you will all point out Dooku. Well so what? When did Dooku demonstrate greater raw Force power than Obi-Wan? Sure he got a few sucker punches in (if I may), but the only time he actually tried to dominate via Force mastery, Obi-Wan replied; 'I don't think so.' (AotC after the aboarted Sith Lightning attack).

Dooku is a superior duelist to Obi-Wan, I don't deny it. That in itself does not actually mean anything. Liverpool is a superior team to Arsenal and yet they still managed to lose to them on the weekend (grumble).

See my point?

Obi-Wan vs Darth Vader on the DS.

Darth Vader's pathetic attempts to taunt aside, he still failed to achieve any kind of victory of his master, who we can only assume through atrophy has let his powers slip a little, or apathy has decided it's time to join Qui-Gon in the great Force yonder. Cripple boy was hard pressed to kill an old man who hadn't kept up with his excercises, and who in the end just surrendered.

Stravo wrote: haven't read any of his [Maces] EU exploits so I'm not sure how he stacks up in that arena but I stand by my decision.

In Shatterpoint it is said that he is weaker than Anakin. Not potentially. Is. Grain of salt.

Vymple wrote:I object to the "older and diminished" Obi-Wan being a significant factor- while it's true an older Jedi is at a disadvantage compared to one in his prime, we know from Count Dooku, Yoda and Palpatine- all of whom are older than Obi-Wan at the time of ANH (in the case of Count Dooku, much older), that an older Jedi/Sith can still fight with the best of them.

And yet, I recall you loving to bring up Vader's 'your powers are weak old man' quote as actually being an actual objective and non-biased appraisal of old Ben's power during ANH. Convinient. However, since I have also decided to say 'hay maybe they were due to atrophy', well glass houses and all that.

Vympel wrote:

Darth Yoshi wrote:Wasn't Obi-wan simply stalling for time to let Luke & co. get back to the Falcon and escape?

Novelization says no. Besides, think about it- would you stall someone (and then give up your own life!) so your friends could escape if you could defeat him, or would you just outright defeat him and then get away? From no rational point of view does it make sense that Obi-Wan could've beaten Vader, but didn't because he'd rather give up.

I do agree that Obi-Wan could not have beaten Vader, however on the same note I don't think Vader could have beaten Obi-Wan, at least not in any reasonable time frame.

Couldn't another point in giving up be to become one with the force so he could assist Luke in places where he normally could not have been? For example the Trench run, telling Luke about Dagobah, and pretty much every other time we see him after his death. Yes it's possible that he still could have told him all those things while still being alive but on Dagobah his presense with Yoda helped a lot.

Crown wrote:The question of Obi-Wan Kenobi, vis-a-vis Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader is ... oh so complicated.

How can we accept Lucas' et als comentary, and the official literature that Anakin was, was more powerful than Obi-Wan at the time of RotS, when we take into consideration the final duel? I of course, refer specifically to the Force pushing contest between the two inside the control room.

No one, not even in the novelisation its self (IIRC) has actually offered up any kind of explaination as to why Anakin's Force push didn't win out over Obi-Wan's. What more evidence is required of their (at this point) even standing in raw Force power?

Wasn't Obi-Wan rather known for his giving himself entirely to the force and to put his trust in it? If so that would explain how he managed to equal out Anakin's force push.

Vympel wrote:Novelization says no. Besides, think about it- would you stall someone (and then give up your own life!) so your friends could escape if you could defeat him, or would you just outright defeat him and then get away? From no rational point of view does it make sense that Obi-Wan could've beaten Vader, but didn't because he'd rather give up.

That's not what I was suggesting. I meant that Obi-wan knew he couldn't win, but stuck it out anyway to distract Vader.

Stravo wrote:
8. Darth Vader - snip Vader is powerful in other ways but when it comes to offense dueling wise I just don't see him holding off the more acrobatic members at the top of this list or have the ability to to counter Dooku's precision much less his lightening. How far he has fallen after Mustafar.

.

Why? when fighting, you dont need to be acrobatic, only effective. If Vader is not being flashy, perhaps its because he simply does not need to?.

Let's look at won-lost records (I haven't read any prequel EU, so I won't include them):

Anakin vs. Jedi: (large number)-1
Anakin vs. Sith: 2-1

Yoda vs. Sith: 1-1

Obi-Wan Kenobi vs. Sith: 2-2

Qui-Gon Jinn vs. Sith: 0-1

Palpatine vs. Jedi: 3-1
Palpatine vs. Sith: 1-1

Dooku vs. Jedi: 3-2

Mace Windu vs. Sith 1-0
Mace Windu vs. Jedi 0-1

Only Mace and Anakin have winning records against the Sith, so I'd put them at the top, followed by Palpatine, Yoda, Dooku, Obi-Wan and so on. I know people are going to complain "But Anakin bodyslammed Palpatine when he was distracted!" to which I respond "Tough titty -excuses are for losers!"

Elfdart wrote: "But Anakin bodyslammed Palpatine when he was distracted!" to which I respond "Tough titty -excuses are for losers!"

Damnit, now whenever i watch RotJ i'm going to be mentally saying "Superslam!!!" when that happens, just like "Stop TKing you fag!!!1!" in RotS

Crown wrote: No one, not even in the novelisation its self (IIRC) has actually offered up any kind of explaination as to why Anakin's Force push didn't win out over Obi-Wan's. What more evidence is required of their (at this point) even standing in raw Force power?

You can't just take a force push and declare the overwhelming evidence from the entire field of canon and EU wrong and declare them even in force power. They're quite simply not. If they were, we would assume that Qui-Gon, Yoda, Palpatine etc are all wrong and Anakin really is nothing special.

I know, I know, you will all point out Dooku. Well so what? When did Dooku demonstrate greater raw Force power than Obi-Wan? Sure he got a few sucker punches in (if I may), but the only time he actually tried to dominate via Force mastery, Obi-Wan replied; 'I don't think so.' (AotC after the aboarted Sith Lightning attack).

A duel between Jedi isn't just a duel, it's also a battle on the level of the Force. It's no wonder Obi-Wan got owned in both outings.

Dooku is a superior duelist to Obi-Wan, I don't deny it. That in itself does not actually mean anything.

Yes, it does- see above.

Liverpool is a superior team to Arsenal and yet they still managed to lose to them on the weekend (grumble).

You base it being the superior team on presumably a long history. What reason do we have to believe that Obi-Wan is superior to Dooku? None.

Obi-Wan vs Darth Vader on the DS.

Darth Vader's pathetic attempts to taunt aside

We've been over this. Darth Vader stalked Obi-Wan for a good deal of time before Obi-Wan even realized he was there. The effect of Vader's mere presence on Obi-Wan is explicitly described in the novel. It's not just a taunt. It's a fact. His powers were weak.

he still failed to achieve any kind of victory of his master

In the matter of minutes that they fought before Obi-Wan gave up the ghost? So what? Obi-Wan still knew he was going to lose, that much is certain.

who we can only assume through atrophy has let his powers slip a little

That's ridiculous. Why would Obi-Wan let his powers slip? Fat lot of use he'd be to train a Jedi if he can barely remember it himself.

or apathy has decided it's time to join Qui-Gon in the great Force yonder.

That's even more ridiculous.

Cripple boy was hard pressed to kill an old man who hadn't kept up with his excercises, and who in the end just surrendered.

That's just silly. He surrendered because he knew he would lose. It's quite obvious.

And yet, I recall you loving to bring up Vader's 'your powers are weak old man' quote as actually being an actual objective and non-biased appraisal of old Ben's power during ANH.

By itself, it means nothing. Taken in context with the novelization account, as well as the painfully obvious fact that he had no hope of winning and gave up, on the other hand ...

Convinient.

I never placed emphasis on "old man". But yes, age does play a factor, though I emphasize, again- Obi-Wan is younger than Palpatine in RotS, Dooku in AotC and RotS, and Yoda (though he's a different species so whatever).

Vympel wrote:The best rationalization is that Vader was restricting his movements with the Force. Vader should easily be able to counter lightning if he has his lightsabre, and we know from Dark Lord that he adjusted his style to compensate for his weaknesses quite effectively, effortlessly defeating multiple twirly-wirly acrobatic Jedi at a time on Kashyyyk, in a matter of several swipes.

You refer to the two Jedi Knights that were basically just placeholders, and mentally messed up enough they deferred to deluded librarian padawan, no? Seems as how mental state is highly important to ability to use the Force they aren't the best example. Or perhaps the Agricorp brats that he dispatched so quickly. He was toying with the deluded librarian Padawan so you couldn't be referring to her.

Besides which, a mere Jedi Knight who was a kind of Obi Wan light who routinely admits to having difficulties with being able to use/perceive the Force had Vader on the ropes for quite a while there. Not exactly something to brag about being equivalated to in swordsmanship, for the crowd wishing to use Dark Lord to portray Vader as so much stronger.

Vympel wrote:Novelization says no. Besides, think about it- would you stall someone (and then give up your own life!) so your friends could escape if you could defeat him, or would you just outright defeat him and then get away? From no rational point of view does it make sense that Obi-Wan could've beaten Vader, but didn't because he'd rather give up.

Why isn't the fact that there were like twenty stormtroopers in the Hangar and much more coming down the hallway, factor into your statement? It's explicitly stated in the novel the _troopers_ have trapped him, while Vader is merely mentioned as blocking the way.

Kenobi gauged the shrinking distance between the oncoming troops and himself, the turned a pitying gaze on Vader. "This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. You powers have matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting. If my blade finds its mark, you will cease to exist. But if you cut me down, I will only become more powerful. Heed my words."

This comes right before Kenobi allows himself to be hit in the novel. The _troopers_ have trapped him and Vader isn't so weak he could have just taken him out in the limited time frame he had before the troopers closed in.

Vympel wrote:We've been over this. Darth Vader stalked Obi-Wan for a good deal of time before Obi-Wan even realized he was there. The effect of Vader's mere presence on Obi-Wan is explicitly described in the novel. It's not just a taunt. It's a fact. His powers were weak.

It's also stated that:
-part of his confusion on recognition was Vader's maturity of mind, and it doesn't say anything about stalking from what I see. He was waiting ahead of him near the hangar Obi Wan basically had to return to, how do you get stalking from that? If he was stalking he should have popped out behind as opposed to ahead of him.
-It is also noted how very rough Vader's movements are in just drawing out and igniting his saber.
-The utensil perceiving the taste of food jibe from Obi-wan, which is referred to before as perceiving that Vader still was missing some vital logical link.

Could you point out what you're referring to in the novel exactly because I have it in hand openned to the appropriate section and I'm just not seeing what you're referring to.

Vympel wrote:In the matter of minutes that they fought before Obi-Wan gave up the ghost? So what? Obi-Wan still knew he was going to lose, that much is certain.

While technically true the novel is very explicit on this being due to the approaching troopers, not just Vader. The troopers had trapped him, it is very explicit on that point. It is very explicit on when they change the situation, from Vader blocking the way to him being trapped.

Sorry for the double post can a mod please delete this post?

In terms of the Vader force wall on Kenobi point I just have several examples to call bullshit on that:

Palpatine vs. Yoda. No slowing down of either of them , especially to a point where it looks like two old men fighting.

Yoda vs. Dooku Can anyone seriously suggest that either man was slowed down/impeded/crippled in that duel?

Mace v. Palpatine - No slowing down of movement or ability, Palpatine is going around using Ataru for fuck's sake in some parts of the duel and certainly seems more spry than Obi Wan at the DS OR Qui Gon on Naboo. You can claim "but but Palpatine is so much more powerful so he couldn't be slowed down." Really? So why wasn't Mace slowed down a whit and in fact defeated Palpatine?

Dooku vs Obi Wan/Anakin part 1 - The novelization states that force walls were in use during these duels but Anakin a padawan was not slowed down from the visuals in the films and in fact performs better than his master in the duel on Geonosis.

Anakin v. Obi Wan - not a sign of force walls or any of this slowing down impeding stuff, in fact at one point in the duel they flash their blades inches form each other, twirling them and no sign at all that their struggling against any kind of impediment. Lucas' commentary, novelization, etc all point to Anakin utterly dominating that duel yet Obi Wan is NOTHING like he was on the DS.

So...we can argue that Vader does something to Obi Wan that is not seen in ANY OTHER DUEL IN THE ENTIRE SERIES

OR

we can argue that these are two tired old men crossing blades one last time, one too slow and crippled to take advanatge of the older man's weakness and atrophied skills. A view supported by the author of the series BTW.

I know which the Vader fanboys will chose.

Vympel wrote:

Crown wrote:No one, not even in the novelisation its self (IIRC) has actually offered up any kind of explaination as to why Anakin's Force push didn't win out over Obi-Wan's. What more evidence is required of their (at this point) even standing in raw Force power?

You can't just take a force push and declare the overwhelming evidence from the entire field of canon and EU wrong and declare them even in force power. They're quite simply not. If they were, we would assume that Qui-Gon, Yoda, Palpatine etc are all wrong and Anakin really is nothing special.

Yes, I bloody well can. You see, unlike the ridiculous round of rock-paper-scissors some people seem to be playing in this thread, this scene - while not 'number' quantifiable - allows us to quantify their relative raw Force power at that point in time. By any rational observer the only conclusion that can be drawn is that they are evenly matched.

Now, if there is some kind of rationalisation as to why Anakin didn't blow Obi-Wan away; he really didn't want to, he was holding back, he was exhausted, he had a cold, etc. bring it to the table. Otherwise, the highest order of canon shows us that they are evenly matched.

This outweighs writer's intent, EU say-so and character heresay. You know this.

Vympel wrote:

Crown wrote:I know, I know, you will all point out Dooku. Well so what? When did Dooku demonstrate greater raw Force power than Obi-Wan? Sure he got a few sucker punches in (if I may), but the only time he actually tried to dominate via Force mastery, Obi-Wan replied; 'I don't think so.' (AotC after the aboarted Sith Lightning attack).

A duel between Jedi isn't just a duel, it's also a battle on the level of the Force. It's no wonder Obi-Wan got owned in both outings.

True. I did say that Dooku sucker punched Obi-Wan during their duels, you have yet to refute that in terms of 'just throwing energy around' Dooku was in anyway, shape or form superior to Obi-Wan.

Vympel wrote:

Crown wrote:Liverpool is a superior team to Arsenal and yet they still managed to lose to them on the weekend (grumble).

You base it being the superior team on presumably a long history. What reason do we have to believe that Obi-Wan is superior to Dooku? None.

The Point; .

Empty space.

Your head; 8^)

The analogy is that a rock-paper-scissors 'analysis' is bollocks. As any sporting fan will tell you. We should be focusing on quantifiable evidence, not he beat so-so, so he should be able to beat so-so, etc.

Vympel wrote:

Crown wrote:Obi-Wan vs Darth Vader on the DS.

Darth Vader's pathetic attempts to taunt aside

We've been over this. Darth Vader stalked Obi-Wan for a good deal of time before Obi-Wan even realized he was there.

'Stalked'

Dude, Vader had a one in three chance to guess as to which door Obi-Wan was going to approach the MF. I'd hardly call that 'stalked'. You wanna talk stalking, check out Obi-Wan Kenobi the super sneak in AotC. Above the head of the big bad Darth Tyranus, he could spit on him and get away with it.

Vympel wrote:[The effect of Vader's mere presence on Obi-Wan is explicitly described in the novel. It's not just a taunt. It's a fact. His powers were weak.

So they atrophied, right?

Vympel wrote:

Crown wrote:he still failed to achieve any kind of victory of his master

In the matter of minutes that they fought before Obi-Wan gave up the ghost? So what? Obi-Wan still knew he was going to lose, that much is certain.

Yes, due to Vader's posse. Oooh, real big drawing card there for Vader.

Vympel wrote:

Crown wrote:who we can only assume through atrophy has let his powers slip a little

That's ridiculous. Why would Obi-Wan let his powers slip? Fat lot of use he'd be to train a Jedi if he can barely remember it himself.

You can't have it both ways Vymp. You can't have his powers being 'weak' and then turning around and saying; but they obviously were the same level as of RotS (with out bothering to prove as such) when it is convenient for you.

Vympel wrote:

Crown wrote:or apathy has decided it's time to join Qui-Gon in the great Force yonder.

That's even more ridiculous.

Any more ridiculous than Darth 'psychological basket case' Vader? The opening book of The Last Jedi series makes it pretty obvious that in the one year span between RotS and the book, Obi-Wan had already let his powers atrophy a little, and Qui-Gon refused to teach him the secret of the disappearing into the Force trick since Obi-Wan was a basked case of guilt, and he really, really would have like to 'move on'. IIRC

Vympel wrote:

Crown wrote:Cripple boy was hard pressed to kill an old man who hadn't kept up with his excercises, and who in the end just surrendered.

That's just silly. He surrendered because he knew he would lose. It's quite obvious.

Silly or not, it doesn't change the fact that Vader had a tough time against a 'weak' 'old man' Kenobi and only won because said 'weak' 'old man' let him win.

Vympel wrote:

Crown wrote: And yet, I recall you loving to bring up Vader's 'your powers are weak old man' quote as actually being an actual objective and non-biased appraisal of old Ben's power during ANH.

By itself, it means nothing. Taken in context with the novelization account, as well as the painfully obvious fact that he had no hope of winning and gave up, on the other hand ...

Crown wrote:Convinient.

I never placed emphasis on "old man". But yes, age does play a factor, though I emphasize, again- Obi-Wan is younger than Palpatine in RotS, Dooku in AotC and RotS, and Yoda (though he's a different species so whatever).

Dude, there's no reason to reply to something that I say tounge-in-cheek.

I just wanted to pipe in...

Is anybody else going to rank the Jedi and Sith? I would certainly love to see other opinions and I thought that was the point of this thread. Or are you guys working out ideas?

Cos Dashit wrote:I just wanted to pipe in...

Is anybody else going to rank the Jedi and Sith? I would certainly love to see other opinions and I thought that was the point of this thread. Or are you guys working out ideas?

No. Pulling each other's chains on this issue is a time honoured tradition between Vympel and me.

Crown wrote:

Cos Dashit wrote:I just wanted to pipe in...

Is anybody else going to rank the Jedi and Sith? I would certainly love to see other opinions and I thought that was the point of this thread. Or are you guys working out ideas?

No. Pulling each other's chains on this issue is a time honoured tradition between Vympel and me.

It'd be even more interesting if you guys put your rankings out there. I've been looking forward to others' opinions on this issue.

Vympel wrote:We've been over this. Darth Vader stalked Obi-Wan for a good deal of time before Obi-Wan even realized he was there. The effect of Vader's mere presence on Obi-Wan is explicitly described in the novel. It's not just a taunt. It's a fact. His powers were weak.

Obi-Wan went on the Death Star already knowing that he was going to be killed by Darth Vader.

Ben Kenobi to Luke wrote:They must be delivered safely or other star systems will suffer the same fate as Alderaan. Your destiny lies along a different path than mine. The Force will be with you...always!

Vader in his discussion with Tarkin wrote:Escape is not his plan. I must face him alone.

While I will agree that Obi-Wan's powers are weak, it must also be noted that he states that if he is struck down he shall become more powerful than Vader can possibly imagine. And that wasn't a bluff either.

Mini Rant Mode: On

Stravo wrote:We can argue that these are two tired old men crossing blades one last time, one too slow and crippled to take advanatge of the older man's weakness and atrophied skills. A view supported by the author of the series BTW.

I know which the Vader fanboys will chose.

*Wags finger at Stravo*

Now, now. Writers intent is only viable when it diminishes any other Star Wars character - not Vader - as you very well know Stravo.

Mini Rant Mode: Off.

in response to stravo's post,

I don't feel there is any evidence to suggest that Darth Vader could defeat Maul or Jin,

he is old, slow, a shadow of a man.

Something else, Mace was also very wrong about Dooku leading the CIS, maybe this doesn't have to do with force power, but...he was clearly wrong