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I was playing Battlefront II this day, and suddenly it occured to me on Mustafar as I stormed a room full of 25 Clone Troopers with Darth Maul and started flinging them off the edge into the molten lake below that I had never seen a Jedi do that.

The same thought occured in a Mos Eisley Assault game and as Anakin I force-choked Aayla Secura, thus holding her in midair, and dropped her and quickly cut her to ribbons with my saber as she fell. That's a rather standard tactic, but I've never seen a Jedi in the movies (or in the EU that I've personally seen) use TK to immobilize an opponent while attacking them.

And again when as Aayla Secura I pulled one of the Fetts out of midair and slammed him into the ground with TK before sabering him. I've never seen a Jedi TK somebody in midair or moving quickly, slam them into the ground with enough force to stun them, and then attack while off guard.


Why is it that we never see Jedi pick regular, non-Force powered people up and just smash them against walls, fling them away across rooms, or hold the enemy's arms rigid against their sides? Or have we? Where?

Is there some sort of Jedi injunction against use of TK to knock weapons out of people's hands? Breaking bones? Throwing off aim? The SDN-style but rarely seen Stroke-causing Blood Vessel pop?

It takes concentration, to be sure, but it can't take that much if Obi-Wan and Anakin have time in mid-duel to fire a blast of TK at eachother. The duel would have ended a bit more violently and quickly if either one of them had stood there, Dragon Ball Z style, charging up, and I think it would be rather insulting to their competance to imply that they both would have considered using a time-intensive attack that leaves them utterly vulnerable in the middle of a heated battle.

(EDIT) Further, Jedi actually do use it on Battle Droids at least twice in the Movies that I can remember to knock them over (which kills the Droids, but could be also used Battlefront II style if they were human).

Off the top of my head, we've seen in the movies:

A) Dooku TKed Obi-Wan in Episode II, IIRC, when he smacks down Obi-Wan and Anakin, right?
B) Palpantine and Yoda fling pods at eachother
C) Obi-Wan and Anakin try to Force Push eachother, which likely would have ended up bad had one of them been blown off that gantry.
D) Yoda knocks out two Royal Guardsmen.
E) Vader's ZOMG DEBRIS RUSH attack on Luke
I didn't count Yoda vs. Dooku because the attack was extremely slow and directed at an unconcious opponent, which is hardly useful in any other situation.
F) (EDIT) Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon knocking over some Battle Droids. Others doing the same.

So, to summarize, why is it that we don't see more use of Jedi TK as a weapon?

Well, when fighting against other Force users, the opponent can use the Force themself to nullify the effects of the TK, unless the Jedi is significantly more powerful than the opponent.

Besides that, I really don't know. The only thing I can think of without a better working knowledge of the EU is that other Force users are the only opponents dangerous enough to a Jedi to warrant such a use of power, but due to the opponent's use of the Force they can effectively "nullify" the TK.

Maybe.

Jedi have compunctions against using the Force to constrict and crush tissue directly. This is a game mechanics (roleplaying game) explanation, but it is not contradicted by higher sources; apparently the act of crushing living tissue is inherently dark because it's using the Force to hurt life (hurting itself), and also because the Jedi can feel the flesh being crushed. This, for some reason, doesn't stop them from knocking living enemies backward into walls.

Also, it would seem that TK requires a degree of concentration and focus that diminishes the Jedi's ability to use his other unseen abilities, namely short-term precognition and having his movement guided by the Force. Lowering those sensory and cognitive (and precognitive) abilities in close quarters with a Force sensitive opponent is presumably rather dangerous.
When Maul did it to Obi-Wan, and Obi-Wan and Anakin did their zomg push power battle, their sabers were pushed into positions where they could not attack. Opportunities to use TK are rare, but they do when they get the chance.

Also, I would assume that Force users can actively resist telekinetic attacks by other Force users, either through some mechanism that nullifies the attempt, or perhaps with a push in the opposing direction.
Darth Tyranus gripping and lifting Obi-Wan while kicking Anakin aside is one of the most puzzling events, in my opinion. When I saw it in the theatre the first time, it ellicited a significant WTF factor in me. I'm assuming Darth Tyranus is simply that much more powerful than Obi-Wan when it comes to this. It was simply such a trivial feat for him, that he was able to do it without diverting effort from his other activities.


None of this explains why they don't knock over or trip their mundane non-Force using opponents more often, though, so you have a point there.

Glaringly obvious is Obi-Wan not using TK at all during his attempt to prevent Jango Fett's escape on the landing platform at Tipoca City. Jango certainly wouldn't have been able to nullify TK attempts since he isn't Force sensitive, so did Obi-Wan really have his hands too full to smack the bounty hunter with the Force?

Even taking into account the possibility that Jedi don't consider non-Force sensitives potent enough to warrant direct offensive use of the Force, the fact that the Fetts did manage to escape kind of knocks that explanation out, in this particular situation.

I doubt Jango Fett could have been taken alive, and there was no telling how much the ship or Boba knew. I'd have to rewatch the movie to really have a good response, but I remember Obi-wan being pretty preoccupied with getting his lightsaber back for a good chuck of the fight. The question of fast-moving targets might also come into play here.

I was under the impression that Jedi generally didn't so much TK their opponent backwards as create a shockwave in the air in front of them.

Hmm, I doubt TK attacks have anything to do with air. Darth Vader hurling debris, Force chokes and Yoda keeping up the fallen girder at the end of AotC really don't look like air has anything to do with it. There's no reason to believe any of the other Tk feats have anything to do with shockwaves in the air.

You may have a point about the speed of targets. When a Jedi panics, the accuracy of all his actions is affected, probably including his TK. Although the Clone Wars series is often discounted as hearsay, I'd like to reference Grievous' approach down the hallway toward Shaak Ti and the other two Jedi Knights. The two knights were unable to hit the fast-moving Grievous (they were no doubt unnerved by his fearsome reputation as well), but Shaak Ti took a moment to focus and was able to do so.

In a chaotic fight, they simply may not have the time to attain that level of focus.

The short answer is the same as why Superman doesn't simply move as fast as he possibly can all the time while using his heat vision to defeat all his opponents in a fraction of a fraction of a second: It'd be boring.

There was a quote in the ROTS novelization where Obi-Wan is pondering a tactic he uses against Grevious and Anakin where he reverses the polarity of something and causes their artificial arms to move in the wrong direction. He says something about it being easier with them than with "living flesh, with a will of its own."

Well, Obi-Wan also said in ANH that "the Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded." So if a person is in control of himself, it might as well be impossible for a jedi to use TK on him.

Btw. Don't recall where I got this impression. But wasn't maul able to force push Obi-Wan in PM because at the time he was dangerously close to the dark side. Maybe someone more knowledgeable could shed some light on this.

-Gunhead

Gunhead wrote:Well, Obi-Wan also said in ANH that "the Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded." So if a person is in control of himself, it might as well be impossible for a jedi to use TK on him.

Btw. Don't recall where I got this impression. But wasn't maul able to force push Obi-Wan in PM because at the time he was dangerously close to the dark side. Maybe someone more knowledgeable could shed some light on this.

-Gunhead

RPG rules are only worth so much, but in this case, there's not much else that covers it. Everyone have an innate resistance to force manipulation according to those, though easily defated by a strong force user.

I was referring to the "force push" on living opponents, not TKing inanimate objects. For example, the mutual force-push in Episode 3 makes more sense if the two were being blown back by the explosion of a high-pressure wall than if they simultaneously failed to keep themselves in place, yet continued pushing each other. I would expect their push to fail along with their resistance. Also, Yoda's force-push against Sideous had a distinct 'boom' sound.

In KOTOR series powerfull individuals (even if they were not Force users) could resist Force powers to a degree (and both Revan and the Exile were quite strong in the Force). (this of course could be just game mechanics).

I wasn't basing that argument on any game mechanics. I'm vaguely familiar with WEG SW, but I've never read the force rules. I don't touch D20 with a 30 foot pole.

-Gunhead

Glaringly obvious is Obi-Wan not using TK at all during his attempt to prevent Jango Fett's escape on the landing platform at Tipoca City. Jango certainly wouldn't have been able to nullify TK attempts since he isn't Force sensitive, so did Obi-Wan really have his hands too full to smack the bounty hunter with the Force?

Well, to be fair he did want Jango Fett alive, so he probably held back to try and capture the bounty hunter. Or, at the very least, let him escape and put a tracking beacon on his ship ...

Doctor Doom wrote:

Glaringly obvious is Obi-Wan not using TK at all during his attempt to prevent Jango Fett's escape on the landing platform at Tipoca City. Jango certainly wouldn't have been able to nullify TK attempts since he isn't Force sensitive, so did Obi-Wan really have his hands too full to smack the bounty hunter with the Force?

Well, to be fair he did want Jango Fett alive, so he probably held back to try and capture the bounty hunter. Or, at the very least, let him escape and put a tracking beacon on his ship ...

Seems to me if he just wanted him alive, wanted to capture him and all, then grabbing him with TK and simply taking his weapons from him while imobilized would have been far better. Going through all that on Geonosis would have been unnecesary, just extract the information after you literally drag him back to Coruscant. A few Jedi mind tricks could easily get what they need, names, locations etc. Then hit Geonosis with everything you have after you've prepared, instead of attacking all ad hoc and loosing Jedi and Clone lives in the process. Not that they had some shortage of either at the time but still.

If Obi-Wan could have captured him, you'd think he'd done it.
While Obi-Wan was pulling his punches, I don't think Jango was.
If Jango escaped because Obi-Wan was careless, I really don't see how that goes to his favor.

Come to think of it, I don't recall TK being used in the movies when the character using it was under attack (Deflecting blaster bolts, lightsaber dueling etc.).

-Gunhead

Darth Vader deflected Han's blaster bolt with his hand. So maybe its a matter of power, or, entirely possible, Vader is just more capable and skilled.

Or was that supposed to be his armor, like a forcefield or something?

Technically Vader's armor could contain a personal deflector shield, but I don't think that's the case. It's more likely a combination of precog and power. He knew Han was coming.

Fun thought. We don't really know how much power Vader had to expend to deflect Han's blaster shots. Maybe he thought after Han took a shot at him:"Damn, note to self: disarm rebels before gloating, that was too damn close"

-Gunhead

I don't know how informative this might be, but the Force mechanics in Star Wars: Jedi Academy were that only Force-capable creatures (or very heavy ones) could resist a Force push or pull. Weight allowed passive resistance, but Force users had to actively use a push to oppose; however, depending on the reflexes of the target, there was a delay between application of the power and the response.

That was very useful if you had two levels of Force Grip...grab someone and toss 'em off a ledge, and even if they countered, they were already falling.

Gunhead wrote:Fun thought. We don't really know how much power Vader had to expend to deflect Han's blaster shots. Maybe he thought after Han took a shot at him:"Damn, note to self: disarm rebels before gloating, that was too damn close"

-Gunhead

As amusing as that is, I doubt it, considering Jacen Solo is capable of deflecting the blasts from a landing ship in Unseen Queen. Admittedly, it surprises Jaina that he can do that, but it's unclear whether that's because he's deflecting shots barehanded or because of the volume of shots he's deflecting.

I would like to think its a force power, because as far as i know Vader's armor isnt ray-shielded. But...i admit it's entirely possible either way.

However the Solo kid's deflection of the ship's blaster bolts adds some wieght to the idea its a force power. Surely he cant be more powerful than Anakin Skywalker right?

Also, Yoda deflects Sith lightning left, right and center in the movies. Its possible we're seeing the use of the same power just against a different kind of energy weapon. In the Clone Wars cartoons, Obi Wan even deflects a hail of bullets fired from Durge's arm guns, so it might not even be restricted to energy weapons but may be a general Jedi/Sith power.

Arent there those Force Walls? We might be seeing just that, only focusing the wall onto the palm say.

The answer is: Jedi aren't too smart.

NecronLord wrote:The answer is: Jedi aren't too smart.

As un-SOD as that sounds, it might actually be reasonably close to the truth. The Jedi of the Old Order were in escence religious fundies, bound completely by their own moral codes, and the fear that any real aggression might turn them down a dark path. This is most plainly seen in their general refusal to wear extensive armor expect in special cases, and their distain for ranged weaponry, both extensions of their moral and honor code. Jedi of Luke's era, and Jedi who are 'gray' are often shown as more extensively exploiting their force abilities, and are often superior warriors.

MRDOD wrote:I was playing Battlefront II this day, and suddenly it occured to me on Mustafar as I stormed a room full of 25 Clone Troopers with Darth Maul and started flinging them off the edge into the molten lake below that I had never seen a Jedi do that.

I had similar thoughts after playing Jedi Knight 2, where a common tactic is to simply pull any enemy's weapons away then Force choke them. I think there may have been a past thread somewhere dealing with Obi-Wan Brainsquish vs Acklay. In games you can just always use TK, whereas movie Jedi seem to be TK-less most of the time.

So, to summarize, why is it that we don't see more use of Jedi TK as a weapon?

I was thinking about this in the Yoda vs SM Librarian thread, and i think the basic postulates i've got are:

• - All TK is particularly draining/exhausting, compared to using the Force for strength, speed, leaping and precog reactions.
  - Force Pushes are easier to do than any other kind of TK.
  - More dexterous TK usage requires more time, effort, and concentration (i.e. distraction).
  - Same goes for applying more stress (i.e. for more force or over a smaller area).
  - Same goes for non-visible TK (must visualise target? cf Vader vs Ozzel).
  
  - Fighting non-Force-users. In a many-threat fight, Jedi must maintain a precog lookout for blaster bolts (etc) and move to deflect them. All this consumes their concentration, and even a two-second gap to TK something could be life-endangering.
  - Fighting Force-users. A Force user can block another's TK if they try. If they're unprepared (e.g. not maintaining a precog lookout), they can't counter in time. If they're distracted (e.g. wounded/suffering), they can't concentrate on blocking.

Off the top of my head, we've seen in the movies:

A) Dooku TKed Obi-Wan in Episode II, IIRC, when he smacks down Obi-Wan and Anakin, right?
B) Palpantine and Yoda fling pods at eachother
C) Obi-Wan and Anakin try to Force Push eachother, which likely would have ended up bad had one of them been blown off that gantry.
D) Yoda knocks out two Royal Guardsmen.
E) Vader's ZOMG DEBRIS RUSH attack on Luke
I didn't count Yoda vs. Dooku because the attack was extremely slow and directed at an unconcious opponent, which is hardly useful in any other situation.
F) (EDIT) Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon knocking over some Battle Droids. Others doing the same.

A) Ok, IIRC Dooku pushed Obi-Wan only after disabling his arm and leg, in other words, a finishing move against an enemy unable to fight back (with or without the Force).

B) I don't remember the sequence of the fight well, but it's likely that they couldn't TK each other directly (being able to block it) so they resorted to projectiles. I think Palpy made a tactical retreat from Yoda's sabre-fighting and tried instead to attack from a distance.

C) Shows that Pushes block each other. Given their intimacy with each other's fighting styles, i guess one of them created a short opportunity where he could afford to put time, effort and concentration into a high-risk-high-payoff Push, but the other anticipated and countered. Perhaps Anakin was the initiator?

D) Royal Guardsmen have no Force powers to block his TK, and Yoda was in a calm environment (i.e. not under attack => his precog/TK guard was down?) and risked nothing by using time/concentration to TK them.

E) Bludgeoning a poorly skilled boy into submission, rather than permanently disabling him for capture. No other threats nearby besides the boy, who was easily overwhelmed.

F) IIRC they tended to use TK against groups of droids, so rather than moving up to and striking each one it was quicker to Push them. The bit i'm thinking of is Obi-Wans three-droid knock-down, where they just finished with other nearby droids and Qui-Gon was covering his back.

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G) Yoda gets clobbered by Palpy's lightning in the opening to the ROTS fight. Yoda underestimated the powers of the Emperor, and was caught off guard.

H) Palpy gets clobbered by Yoda's Push. Palpy underestimated the powers of the Muppet, and was also caught off guard. Both are now annoyed at their overconfidence, and are prepared to block further direct TK. Lightsabres are drawn, music gets going

I) Maul Pushes Obi-Wan into pit in TPM fight. Obi-Wan foolishly swings high and tries to force Maul down, Maul knocks him back and uses the brief gap in Obi-Wan's concentration to Push him as a final-effort 'coup de grace.'

J) Obi-Wan vs the Acklay. A bit problematic since the Acklays couldn't use the Force, and was the only threat.

Alright, maybe the Acklay's body is very tough and Obi-Wan would have needed a lot of time and concentration to dexterously TK a non-line-of-sight moving-target. Maybe if Dooku saw him doing this he would tell Jango to blast off a volley to keep the game balanced. Maybe Obi-Wan calculated that he should be able to defeat it without TK, saving his energy for the inevitably arduous escape.

K) Obi-Wan vs Jango. Similar to the Acklay. As a matter of fact, AOTC is on TV now and i just saw the fight. The way it played out, there really wasn't any opportunity for Obi-Wan to get an easy win using TK. There's no opening until Jango pounces after the cannon volley, and Obi-Wan regains the initiative with a quick mid-air kick. Hand-to-hand ensues, and Obi-Wan manages to knock Jango back just long enough to Pull his lightsabre back. Here he may have thought it would be faster and easier to wound Jango or force him to yield with his lightsabre than try a difficult disabling-without-killing TK move.

After that he gets dragged around by his wrists, and here Obi-Wan decides to charge Jango before he can pick up his pistol and shoot. This is stupid - he should have been able to TK the pistol out of Jango's hand, and he just ended up being pulled over the edge - he realises this error, hence his "Oh, not good".

Alan Bolte wrote:I was referring to the "force push" on living opponents, not TKing inanimate objects. For example, the mutual force-push in Episode 3 makes more sense if the two were being blown back by the explosion of a high-pressure wall than if they simultaneously failed to keep themselves in place, yet continued pushing each other. I would expect their push to fail along with their resistance. Also, Yoda's force-push against Sideous had a distinct 'boom' sound.

I expect that the sudden pressure required to throw them away so violently would easily have perforated their eardrums, making the final emotion-ridden conversation more like: "I hate you!", "What!? Speak up, you little flame-grilled bastard!", "What did you just say about my mother!?"

---
Also i just found an (L): In the Geonosian factory Anakin Pushes a group of enemies back, and later throws two clusters of objects at two small groups with slow-firing guns. Against multiple opponents, TK is very effective, and so is worth the effort/etc.

and an (M): Squidhead-Jedi Pushes C-3PO, apparently for fun, and completely ignoring the battle for at least 6 seconds. Seems to be clear stupidity.