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The opening crawl to ROTS states that there are heroes on both sides of the conflict. I can understand what GL is trying to say here but he fails miserably in the execution of this intention.

Do we have any examples of heroes among the Separatists? In the films at least they most certainly are presented in a dark if not altogether evil light. They are undoubtably the enemy in the films. The Separatist leaders like Gunray are also portrayed in an unflattering light ie. Gunray demanding Padme's execution. I don't know if anyone felt sorry for them when Anakin cut them down but there was little sympathy on my part.

Even the few prequel novels I've read it is very clear who are the good guys and who are the bad guys. The Separatists aren't presented as a group that has very real political objections and reasons why they're leaving the Republic, they're more like black hatted mustached bad guys twirling mustaches and cackeling about how they'll bring the Republic to its knees.

So do you think that this statement is invalidated by many of the examples we have in both films or EU or is there evidence for this assertion in the films or EU that you can point to?

Are the Separatists ever painted in a positive light? Can we consider Dooku, Fett, Gunray, Wat Tambor, Sev'Rance Tan, Grevious, etc in anyway 'heroes'?

Stravo wrote:Are the Separatists ever painted in a positive light? Can we consider Dooku, Fett, Gunray, Wat Tambor, Sev'Rance Tan, Grevious, etc in anyway 'heroes'?

Wasn't Dooku projecting the image of the dashing, noble man leading the masses against a corrupt system, or so the propoganda would have you think? Not that he really was, but I figured it was his charisma more than anything that rallied so many systems to the Separitists

There were Germans fighting for the Nazis during World War II that could be considered 'heroes,' due to their actions in the line of duty.

'Heroes' need not apply to the leadership of either side, nor need it refer to the 'good guys.' I believe that Lucas's intent was to show how fierce the war was, and that individuals on both sides were fighting heroically for their respective cause.

It also has to be remembered that nobody ever sees himself as the bad guy.

Doctor Doom wrote:There were Germans fighting for the Nazis during World War II that could be considered 'heroes,' due to their actions in the line of duty.

'Heroes' need not apply to the leadership of either side, nor need it refer to the 'good guys.' I believe that Lucas's intent was to show how fierce the war was, and that individuals on both sides were fighting heroically for their respective cause.

My problem with that view is since when has this story ever been about the common man or the fighting man in the trenches? On Endor did we ever get a hint about what the rest of the commando team was doing after they split up from Solo and Skywalker? Did we follow the troubles that the common fighting man was having on Hoth trying to get the hell out of dodge or were we given a bickering psuedocouple trying to get off the planet in one piece while the objective of the militray operation on the Imperial side was the capture of Luke Skywalker. In ANH the rebel pilots were given numbers and appeared on screen long enough to die.

Its been about larger than life heroes and their travails and you can even make the suggestion that these movies are really about the Skywalker family in general with the rest of the galaxy as a backdrop.

Even though the films themselves never really focused on "honorable" or "idealistic" Separatists, I think this one mention might be a reference to some of the Separatists encountered in CW EU, who really did fight for what they believed was the good of their people. (Alto Stratus and the Jabiimites, the Nosaurian rebels on New Plympto etc.)

Or the Mon Calamari-Commander Merai.

Wasn't it stated in RotS that 'good' is a point of view? I'm sure that Gunray was a hero to his people. He did manage to stay in his office after the invasion of Naboo (Now I'm not sure if it was elected, but...). And even the Sith had good intentions, it just wasn't good in the eyes of the Jedi. The Senators were all hootin' and a hollerin' when Palpatine said the Republic was going to be organized into an Empire. They obviously thought Palpatine's move was a good one. And Palpatine meant it when he said, "And we shall have peace."

NeoGoomba wrote:Wasn't Dooku projecting the image of the dashing, noble man leading the masses against a corrupt system, or so the propoganda would have you think? Not that he really was, but I figured it was his charisma more than anything that rallied so many systems to the Separitists

Cos Dashit wrote:Wasn't it stated in RotS that 'good' is a point of view? I'm sure that Gunray was a hero to his people. He did manage to stay in his office after the invasion of Naboo (Now I'm not sure if it was elected, but...). And even the Sith had good intentions, it just wasn't good in the eyes of the Jedi. The Senators were all hootin' and a hollerin' when Palpatine said the Republic was going to be organized into an Empire. They obviously thought Palpatine's move was a good one. And Palpatine meant it when he said, "And we shall have peace."

I'm with the above two quotes.

My guess would be they didn't mean 'heros' as in 'good people' as much as 'really powerful people' - i.e. Jedi, being that the only thing which can kill a Jedi master seems to be another Jedi or orbital bombardment, there really can't be any other heros.

So, "hero" in the sense that it's used in a typical RTS mechanics discussion.

Yes Greek mythology tended to use the word "Hero" as well to just mean "Really bad-ass guy".

It need not specifically mean "Good Person" just someone who's like Rambo or something, which people like Dooku, Grevious and the like would count as. I.e really bad-ass.

On the Republic side, obviously, the Jedi fill this role.

Well, General Grievous isn't necesserily all that bad. While his military actions are successful because of his own talents, all his atrocities and wickedness are the result of the controlling chips planted in his head on the orders of the Sith. In that respect, he's rather similar to a goa'uld host, a tragic figure, in my opinion, more than someone villainous of his own accord.

Stravo wrote:Are the Separatists ever painted in a positive light? Can we consider Dooku, Fett, Gunray, Wat Tambor, Sev'Rance Tan, Grevious, etc in anyway 'heroes'?

Dooku: Certainly in many people's perceptions, a heroic ex-jedi, struggling against the corrupt government. Which then turns into the most evil regime ever known. He'd probably be remembered as a failed hero by many.
Fett: Not exactly a hero, except to his son, but still a fairly reasonable guy. He's of course, going to be best known as a clone-template by historians.
Gunray: A leader in the cause for free trade and independance of the confederate states, err, systems, against the tyrannical Republic and its Grand Army. Lots of people think of RL confederate leaders as heroes. It's likely some would see Gunray and his ilk as heroes too.
Wat Tambor: See Gunray.
Sev'Rance Tann: Of course. She did nothing, to my knowledge, that could be considered evil. She killed armed combattants, and defeated armies? She's probably the Star Wars General Robert. E. Lee.
Grievous: General Grievous was, if I remember my Labyrinth of Evil right, intended to be a despised villain by Sidious.

NecronLord wrote:Well, General Grievous isn't necesserily all that bad. While his military actions are successful because of his own talents, all his atrocities and wickedness are the result of the controlling chips planted in his head on the orders of the Sith. In that respect, he's rather similar to a goa'uld host, a tragic figure, in my opinion, more than someone villainous of his own accord.

Thank you for this, it puts Grievous in a new light for me.

The amount of heroes of the Seperatists is probably limited, though, by their reliance upon Droid Armies. Officers, the CIS-supported Quarrans, and other living CIS sympathizers probably are a minority of the CIS military.

Compared to the Clones, who get somewhat-individualized personalities and have all sorts of captains and commanders and special forces and all sorts of positions that can tend to produce war heroes.

Come to think of it, in the movies I don't think we see any CIS troopers that aren't robotic except Grievous and some political leaders.

Come to think of it, in the movies I don't think we see any CIS troopers that aren't robotic except Grievous and some political leaders.

Geonosian hive warriors, Neimodian starship crewers, and the Council Guardsmen, at least.

There are also Neimodian grunts guarding the Mustafar facility. In the game they are one of the harder enemies you face.

Stravo wrote:My problem with that view is since when has this story ever been about the common man or the fighting man in the trenches?

It isn't. It's about the "hero characters" as you say. The line in the opening crawl is probably just meant to remind you that there's other shit going on in this war which you haven't seen in the movies.

The Star Wars universe has always been vastly larger than just the events we see in the movies. The implication of a much larger and more richly varied world away from the main storyline of Star Wars has always been one of the main appeal points of the franchise.

MRDOD wrote:Compared to the Clones, who get somewhat-individualized personalities and have all sorts of captains and commanders and special forces and all sorts of positions that can tend to produce war heroes.

Real special forces don't produce war heroes so much, given that they're secret. In all honesty, the major barrier to droid recognition is the low esteem most SW people hold them in - it's been done to death here, and inefficient as it is, even B1 (or at least, the ones/variants that are active continuously such as guards, commanders and starship crew) appear to have fairly advanced sapient characteristics, including fear, hesitation, cameraderie, and humour.

Other battle droids, such as B2s, have also showed anger and arrogance, as well as irritation and varying degrees of 'calm' ("it's nothing, get back to work"). Higher forms, such as lancer droids and magnaguards, are probably as smart, or smarter than, you and I.

NecronLord wrote: Real special forces don't produce war heroes so much, given that they're secret. In all honesty, the major barrier to droid recognition - it's been done to death, inefficient as it is, even B1 (or at least, the ones/variants that are active continuously such as guards, commanders and starship crew) appear to have fairly advanced sapient characteristics, including fear, hesitation, cameraderie, and humour.

True. I was talking more of Hero in the Non-SOD sense where we have characters that are followed by movies/books that we're supposed to sympathize with it.

As far as Droids, they do seems sentient, but it seems like most people don't sympathize with them at all or even regard them as such. Hell, even R2-D2 was discriminated against by that bar owner guy, and Astromechs are quite obviously intelligent and more commonly seen than an infantrydroid. That's a major barrier to being recognized as a hero In-Universe, and probably Out-Universe, too.

MRDOD wrote:True. I was talking more of Hero in the Non-SOD sense where we have characters that are followed by movies/books that we're supposed to sympathize with it.

I could write a fic about a B1 protagonist if you payed me. People are just more interested in flesh and blood creatures than comical battledroids

and probably Out-Universe, too.

I'd agree. Droids haven't been presented as 'sentient' with the exception of 3P0 and R2.

NecronLord wrote:I could write a fic about a B1 protagonist if you payed me. People are just more interested in flesh and blood creatures than comical battledroids

Sounds interesting, assuming by pay you mean zero cents-per-word.

A B1 story would be rather short and violent, though. One of the problems with Droids is that they're specialized, with few exceptions. A story of endless combat scenes, unless done in a specific way, would be boring. Or likely not endless at all, since B1s have a rather high casualty rate. Hell, even B2s apparantly do, despite having (of all things) portable rocket launchers.

Hm, that's a nice idea. A fic about a B1 in the sort of "All Quiet On The Western Front" or "The Forever War"* style with a protagonist who goes into combat (Droids probably being 'forced' to obey orders and fight battles by programming, which might also account for their apparant lack of survival instincts**) and knows they're destined to die in combat and is completely and utterly expendable could be interesting.

*I've never personally read this but I heard it was Vietnam-era Anti-War Sci-Fi.

** To my knowledge, the only retreating droids of their own initiative were security droids onboard the Trade Federation ship in Phantom Menace, who also displayed considerable autonomy and strangely seemed not to bet under Control Ship override according to Bob Brown.

Although one could make the case that Droids aren't forced to fight battles. It probably wouldn't be that hard to program them to want to, just like R2 apparantly wants to fix things and C3P0 wants to translate and fulfill protocol duties.

To my knowledge, the only retreating droids of their own initiative were security droids onboard the Trade Federation ship in Phantom Menace

Then there's the two seeing the Acklay come up behind Obi-Wan in the Geonosis arena and run off.

MRDOD wrote:** To my knowledge, the only retreating droids of their own initiative were security droids onboard the Trade Federation ship in Phantom Menace, who also displayed considerable autonomy and strangely seemed not to bet under Control Ship override according to Bob Brown.

There are also pilot droids in RotS that shout 'Run' and 'not that way' and things and try to save each other from Obi Wan 'Liar' Kenobi.