The Sith's secret? Insults, sez Wikipedia

[Duckie]

Is this real?

Dun möch
The Sith aim to completely dominate an opponent's spirit through whatever means possible by employing their own lightsaber combat doctrine. Dun möch commonly involves spoken taunts, jeers, and jests that exposed the opponent's hidden, inner weaknesses and/or doubts. Other variations on dun möch involve usage of the Force to throw large, weighty objects at the Sith's opponent during combat, which both distracts the opponent from the battle and could potentially cause damage.

Darth Vader uses this style against Luke Skywalker in The Empire Strikes Back.
Count Dooku uses it against Jedi Master Yoda in Attack of the Clones
Asajj Ventress while dueling early in the Star Wars: Clone Wars animated series.
Count Dooku against Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker in Revenge of the Sith.
Darth Sidious also uses this style against Yoda in Revenge of the Sith.
Darth Vader uses this style against Roan Shryne in the novel Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader by James Luceno.

Even some non-Force users have learned to use dun möch. Jabba the Hutt used it to good effect, referring to Han Solo as "Bantha Poodoo". Solo later proved his own mastery of this technique, referring to the crime lord as a "worm-ridden piece of filth". Solo used the other technique of dun möch during the Battle of Endor, distracting an Imperial officer by throwing a shoulder bag at him, causing the officer to fall into the reactor shaft. Another Imperial officer later used dun möch on Han Solo, calling him "Rebel scum".

Perhaps foreshadowing his fall to the Dark Side, Anakin Skywalker proved adept at dun möch when he was nine years old, driving off the belligerent Sebulba. It is speculated that Anakin learned dun möch from his master Watto, who was also adept at it.

Count Dooku even took it upon himself to teach the Separatists' battle droids the art of dun möch, as shown by one of them referring to R2-D2 as a "stupid little astro-droid".

Han Solo has mastered the ancient Sith art of being mean to people. How scary. Really. Is that an actual EU invention, or is somebody screwing around with the edit function?

I'm unsure because it seems so ridiculous and that I've never seen a Star Wars invented word using 'ö'. But if it's real, as I suspect, wtf? Whose invention was that and what book is it in?

Or am I alone in finding a listing of every character who insulted one another used for some sort of Sith Psychological Warfare technique section strange?

[Lord Revan]

Sounds like BS to me.

[The Prime Necromancer]

You're not the only one. I was looking over that article yesterday, and when I got to that section I immediately thought, "Huh, so *everybody* who insults someone else is a practitioner of a Sith fighting art." Yeah, right, uh-huh. At the very least, whoever wrote those "examples" took it just a bit too far.

[Duckie]

I also like the example of Han Solo using Dun Moch against an Imperial Officer.

Because there's absolutely no objective in throwing a heavy object at someone's face except to dominate their spirit and cause them to have doubts.

[Ghost Rider]

I say someone is trying to make a poor jab at people who analyze things in SW. The examples are just stretching it, and to add JABBA as using this supposed technique; instead of the obvious mocking that everyone else sees it as. This one is just being an asshat.

[Jim Raynor]

Surprisingly, it's real, according to the CUSWE (source is Star Wars Insider #62). I seriously doubt that all the examples given in that Wiki article are legit. I smell bullshit, and couldn't keep from laughing out loud when I got to the paragraph describing examples of non-Force users using dun moch.

[Noble Ire]

Han Solo has mastered the ancient Sith art of being mean to people. How scary. Really. Is that an actual EU invention, or is somebody screwing around with the edit function?

According to Wookieepedia, its from Insider 62. However, that article seems to indicate it isn't simply 'being mean' but supplementing an actual lightsaber style with taunts and usages of the Force (like throwing things) to unbalance one's opponent, which does make sense. However, the bits on the main site about other individuals being mean simply sound like someone being an idiot.

[Batman]

Somebody has been playing way too much Monkey Island.

[18-Till-I-Die]

No way, i mean just NO FUCKING WAY.

So much BS.

What so pissing people off and throwing shit is a 'Force power' now? Is screaming "I hate you! You're not my mommy!" one too cause three year olds tend to do both.

If this is truly canon so be it, but its rediculous never the less.

[Noble Ire]

What so pissing people off and throwing shit is a 'Force power' now? Is screaming "I hate you! You're not my mommy!" one too cause three year olds tend to do both.

Did you read the link? It's not a Force-power, but rather an element of a fighting style. Some Sith might focus purely on combat, like Darth Maul, or they might use their own cunning, skill for manipulation, and TK to undermine their opponent's defense. Giving it a specific name might be too much, but the concept in it self is perfectly reasonable.

[Duckie]

The Wikipedia UI to see who changed what sucks ass, IMO, and I can't work it. But one of the latest edits says "Dun Moch- it's not just a force power" by UndeniablyJordan. That might be the problem.

Anyone with more Wiki-Fu than me able to see if they added that entire bolded section?

[18-Till-I-Die]

You think its perfectly fine to go dicking around throwing shit and taunting people while they're fighting to kill you? That shit looks cool in a movie when every five seconds the fight stops to have a friendly chitchat but in reality people dont do that cause it leaves you open to get hit, and killed.

Or how about this, if someone has precog, wouldnt they know you're about to try something? Like they see attacks, throwing stuff is an attack, you're wasting your energy doing that while they wit for an opening to cut you down.

Now if they mean like go into someone's mind, fiddle around with telepathy, shit like that i can dig it. But this is different.

[Lord Revan]

the fact of the matter that
a) it's more then just simple insults (I have no dout that the non force user examples in the wiki are BS)

b) it's a Sith art not a force power per se, so use of the Force might not be nessery to use it (not all Sith were force users after all).

18 when fighting to the death taunts and other such stuff can become very important as such fight are way more complex then trying hit the other guy with your weapon while trying prevent him from doing the same.

[Adam Reynolds]

I just deleted the non force bs from the article

[felineki]

That shit looks cool in a movie when every five seconds the fight stops to have a friendly chitchat but in reality people dont do that cause it leaves you open to get hit, and killed.

Well, you have to remember that Star Wars isn't reality.

Anyway, Dan would be a natural at this Dun Moch stuff, since taunting already makes up 95% of his fighting style. Just give him a lightsaber (pink, of course), and he'll be all set.

[Jim Raynor]

I just deleted the non force bs from the article

Good.

[Batman]

That shit looks cool in a movie when every five seconds the fight stops to have a friendly chitchat but in reality people dont do that cause it leaves you open to get hit, and killed.

Well, you have to remember that Star Wars isn't reality.

Does the term SoD mean anything to you?

[Noble Ire]

Or how about this, if someone has precog, wouldnt they know you're about to try something? Like they see attacks, throwing stuff is an attack, you're wasting your energy doing that while they wit for an opening to cut you down.

Did you not see ESB, or ROTS? Even though Luke sensed and avoided the first few telekinetically-thrown objects thrown by Vader, they signficantly throw him off-balance. In ROTS, Palpatine's force antics serious inhibited Yoda's ability to close for the kill, eventually making him lose the fight.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Or how about this, if someone has precog, wouldnt they know you're about to try something? Like they see attacks, throwing stuff is an attack, you're wasting your energy doing that while they wit for an opening to cut you down.

Did you not see ESB, or ROTS? Even though Luke sensed and avoided the first few telekinetically-thrown objects thrown by Vader, they signficantly throw him off-balance. In ROTS, Palpatine's force antics serious inhibited Yoda's ability to close for the kill, eventually making him lose the fight.

Luke avoided those when he was fresh out of Jedi training. Imagine what a seasoned Jedi could do, like, say, Anakin or Obi Wan? When they next met and Luke had matured in his skills more, he tapped into the Force full-bore and handed Vader his bionic assplate on a platter. Palpy in fact expected this and had planned on having Luke replace his old acolyte.

And Palpatine was more powerful than Yoda, little green dude says this himself. And what about Mace Windu, supposedly one of the few Jedi who specialized in dealing with the Dark Side users? He never pulled this shit, and his special thing is supposed to be his l33t Dark Side skillz. So wheres the Don Moch?

I'm not saying its not canon, appears it is so i dont contest that at all. But i dont see why we need defend it. Its a bad idea, perhaps even a dangerous one (i'm really not convinced of the intelligence of stopping to be a chatty cathy during a battle for my life).

[felineki]

Does the term SoD mean anything to you?

Yeah, but that works both ways. If Star Wars depicts a certain method of fighting, no matter how impractical it might seem to our eyes, as being effective, then, under SoD, we can assume that said fighting style is effective. Coming in and saying "there's no way that would work in reality" is just unnecessarily breaking SoD.

[Ghost Rider]

The term is stupid, the practice isn't.

Getting someone riled up, makes them lose focus if they aren't good enough. That's the point that where even REALITY people use insults against another opponent. Giving it a name is just the same stupidity as naming the variety of lightsaber slashes they did early on.

[Noble Ire]

Luke avoided those when he was fresh out of Jedi training.

Your right. None of the pipes and boxes hit him at all. He just fell out of that window by himself.

When they next met and Luke had matured in his skills more, he tapped into the Force full-bore and handed Vader his bionic assplate on a platter.

He tapped into the Dark Side to win, it wasn't simply by virtue of greater experience.


In short, some Jedi/Sith use the tactic, and some don't, instead focusing on pure speed or sword work. Since talented Force-users can throw around stuff fairly easily, without breaking their concetration, its a bit different from a guy in a real duel breaking off to find a rock to throw at his opponent.

[Duckie]

The term is stupid, the practice isn't.

Getting someone riled up, makes them lose focus if they aren't good enough. That's the point that where even REALITY people use insults against another opponent. Giving it a name is just the same stupidity as naming the variety of lightsaber slashes they did early on.

I wouldn't say naming a lightsaber form is stupid. Kendo and all other sorts of sword-based martial arts have names for their types of cuts and maneuvers and such.

The Form # thing is a bit dumb, though, as if fighting moves came prepackaged or something, as is naming the Being Mean Technique as a Sith Art.

[Ghost Rider]

The term is stupid, the practice isn't.

Getting someone riled up, makes them lose focus if they aren't good enough. That's the point that where even REALITY people use insults against another opponent. Giving it a name is just the same stupidity as naming the variety of lightsaber slashes they did early on.

I wouldn't say naming a lightsaber form is stupid. Kendo and all other sorts of sword-based martial arts have names for their types of cuts and maneuvers and such.

Not naming the form, but I still find particular disgust that they named "Cutting off a limb" as a specific manuver. Same practice here. Instead of calling it "Insulting someone."...they gave it a packaged name.

I've done enough swordplay to see what they do, but all the same I dislike that for some reason they need to name the mundane as special.

[18-Till-I-Die]

In short, some Jedi/Sith use the tactic, and some don't, instead focusing on pure speed or sword work. Since talented Force-users can throw around stuff fairly easily, without breaking their concetration, its a bit different from a guy in a real duel breaking off to find a rock to throw at his opponent.

(bold mine)

Can they, i'm not sure. I would say yes, personally, however some arguments have been made rather convincingly that they cant.

That is the general explanation for why Sith dont just outright crush another dude's brain. They cant do such things without breaking concentration, and Jedi refuse to brainsquish at all or so they say.

The OTHER argument is that they CANT do such things without breaking concentration and wasting their energy, so they focus instead on force shields and precog.

There is a thread where this is discussed, "Why Dont Jedi Use Their TK More" on this very forum page.