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Now as I was reading up on Sith history for research purposes I saw references on Wiki to a Prophecy of the Sithari which states that the Sithari would be the most powerful Sith in their history that would lead them to a final Golden Age and then the destruction of the Order itself.

The prophecy is often mixed with that of the Chosen One and some say that its simply the Sith interpretation of the same prophecy.

Now I don't think Anakin fits the bill since he is not the most powerful Sith ever and he certainly didn't lead the Order. This seems to be fulfilled by Palpatine who by all accounts is the most powerful Force user ever and led the Sith to a New Golden Age (The Empire) and through his actions also destroyed the Order (Not seeing Anakin turning on him until it was too late)

Anyone know more about this prophecy?

Palpatine's apotheosis as hinted at in DarkEmpire and described in more detail by Publius could also be interpreted as "destruction of the order".

Sounds like a fanboy fantasy, but with the way the EU has been going lately, I guess it wouldn't surprise me if somebody actually had put this down as official. For now I'd take it with a grain of salt.


This reminds me of the famous Gungan prophecy of the great Sage Boss Blumpazz which reads:

"De bombad outcast Fool be meetingsa de Outlanders, saving dis here nation and bringingsa da muy muy peace. But dem timsa' be passin' and da clumsy Fool given' 'em all up to besa slaves."

However, this same prophecy goes on to add:

"But deesen slave days not be lastin' for all de times, but one day wesen be free!"

Kurgan wrote:Sounds like a fanboy fantasy, but with the way the EU has been going lately, I guess it wouldn't surprise me if somebody actually had put this down as official. For now I'd take it with a grain of salt.

In KotOR that female Sith teacher at Korriban's Sith academy talks about the Sithari and the ancient Sith belief that they would be the perfect beings, so they are official.

Funny Ass Gungan Prophecy wrote:De bombad outcast Fool be meetingsa de Outlanders, saving dis here nation and bringingsa da muy muy peace. But dem timsa' be passin' and da clumsy Fool given' 'em all up to besa slaves. But deesen slave days not be lastin' for all de times, but one day wesen be free!

Is that really canon, or a real good joke you made up? If its real, where is that from? I laughed my ass off reading that.

Sith'ari prophecy is canon, Gungan one is a joke.

Is Palpatine really the most powerful force user ever? Mace Windu would have defeated him had Anakin not emerged on the scene in ROTS, and ultimately Vader was able to, without great difficulty, pick him up and then hurl him down a ventillation shaft in ROTJ. The only instance of Palpatine being that powerful seems to be Wankatine in Dark Empire, and even then he was defeated.

I would think there would be just as much, if not more, evidence suggesting that in terms of actual force power, Anakin was much stronger. I would argue that Anakin meets the criteria for being the Sithari, in that he was the vital instrument used by Palpatine to create the New Golden Age, and ultimately, in dispatching Palaptine, was responsible for the destruction of the Sith.

RThurmont wrote:Is Palpatine really the most powerful force user ever? Mace Windu would have defeated him had Anakin not emerged on the scene in ROTS, and ultimately Vader was able to, without great difficulty, pick him up and then hurl him down a ventillation shaft in ROTJ. The only instance of Palpatine being that powerful seems to be Wankatine in Dark Empire, and even then he was defeated.

By the same logic, X-Wings are more powerful than the Death Star.

RThurmont wrote:I would think there would be just as much, if not more, evidence suggesting that in terms of actual force power, Anakin was much stronger.

I think not. Vader saying the opposite, for example. He had the potential, but he never realized it.

RThurmont wrote:I would argue that Anakin meets the criteria for being the Sithari, in that he was the vital instrument used by Palpatine to create the New Golden Age, and ultimately, in dispatching Palaptine, was responsible for the destruction of the Sith.

While I agree with you here, it's merely speculation at this point, and may never beceome more than that, either.

Stravo wrote:Now as I was reading up on Sith history for research purposes I saw references on Wiki to a Prophecy of the Sithari which states that the Sithari would be the most powerful Sith in their history that would lead them to a final Golden Age and then the destruction of the Order itself.

The prophecy is often mixed with that of the Chosen One and some say that its simply the Sith interpretation of the same prophecy.

Now I don't think Anakin fits the bill since he is not the most powerful Sith ever and he certainly didn't lead the Order. This seems to be fulfilled by Palpatine who by all accounts is the most powerful Force user ever and led the Sith to a New Golden Age (The Empire) and through his actions also destroyed the Order (Not seeing Anakin turning on him until it was too late)

Anyone know more about this prophecy?

It's from KOTOR. Although it was never outright said, it's implied that Darth Revan is the Sith'ari, particularly when you play a Dark Side character. IIRC, Yuthura Ban's (Sith Twi'lek woman) dialogue changes ever so slightly if your alignment is dark.

Revan does not meet the requirements for the Sithari Was not te Sithari was supposed to lead the Sith to their greatest heights before destroying them ? Well Revan did not even suceed in conquering the Republic. He wreaked havoc for 2 years then got replaced by his apprentice.. It seems more like what Yuthara said was still a prophecy waiting to be fullfilled 4000 years later by Palpatine.

I'd argue that Revan's short lived empire was a bigger peak for the Sith than Palpatine's Galactic Empire, matched only by Ruin's New Sith Empire of c. 2000-980 BrS. Although, granted, Palpatine succeeded in destroying the Jedi Order and planting himself and Vader in control of the galaxy, he ruled not as a Sith but as a very secular ruler-- his own pet darksiders weren't Sith by any stretch and operated behind the scenes. Revan's empire, in comparision, was Sith bottom to top, and was even appealing enough to attract flocks of common citizens to it in spite of its blatant association with the Sith Order.

000 wrote:I'd argue that Revan's short lived empire was a bigger peak for the Sith than Palpatine's Galactic Empire, matched only by Ruin's New Sith Empire of c. 2000-980 BrS. Although, granted, Palpatine succeeded in destroying the Jedi Order and planting himself and Vader in control of the galaxy, he ruled not as a Sith but as a very secular ruler-- his own pet darksiders weren't Sith by any stretch and operated behind the scenes. Revan's empire, in comparision, was Sith bottom to top, and was even appealing enough to attract flocks of common citizens to it in spite of its blatant association with the Sith Order.

It depends how you look at things: Palpatine's empire was indeed quite secular and in any case, had only two Sith. However, it fit perfectly the philosophy of Darth Bane's reformed Sith Order. And he did rule the galaxy as a dictator well over twenty years, something Revan didn't achieve.

However... Revan's Sith empire was more traditional and had more practicing Sith; it also fits the more conservative view of the Sith as the outside agency working towards the destruction of the Republic as well as towards the destruction of the Jedi Order. Revan's success was short-lived, however - without a strong leader it collapsed entirely within few years; there is no mention of the Sith empire still existing in KotOR II so far as I remember. He did, though, bring the Republic to its knees (he and Malak, to be precise).

Tiriol wrote:there is no mention of the Sith empire still existing in KotOR II so far as I remember.

According to Kreia, the real Sith Empire always existed somewhere out there in the unknown and -implied from her perspective- always will. People have theorized that Revan went there for whatever reason, including defeating it for good, but it's just speculation. One should note that she's a difficult source of information since while she never outright lied as far one can tell, she was a master at half-truths.

nightmare wrote:

Tiriol wrote:there is no mention of the Sith empire still existing in KotOR II so far as I remember.

According to Kreia, the real Sith Empire always existed somewhere out there in the unknown and -implied from her perspective- always will. People have theorized that Revan went there for whatever reason, including defeating it for good, but it's just speculation. One should note that she's a difficult source of information since while she never outright lied as far one can tell, she was a master at half-truths.

True; I should have said that there was no mention of Revan and Malak's Sith empire still existing. The presence of the Sith troopers does at least imply that the remaining Sith Lords have at least some forces at their disposal, as evidenced by Lord Nihilus's attack on Telos and by his involvement in the politics of Onderon. However, we cannot be certain how much military forces the Sith Lords had (most likely rather minimal when compared to Lord Malak's forces, since the Republic, despite its instability, is once again more or less the ruler of the galaxy); and at least Lord Sion seemed to be more fond of his dark side assassins than the Sith troopers, at least so could be deducted from the fact that he employed them in much greater quantities.

Didn't Kreia also suggest that Revan was only using the Sith because they were the best tool available to prepare for the attack he suspected was coming from outside the Republic (IIRC it is heavily implied it will be the "true" Sith) and thus he's not really fullfilling the role of the Sithari which seems to be to become the ultimate Sith.

Palpatine fulfills the dreams of the Sith from day one - the detsruction of the Jedi Order - and creates an Empire that may have been secular in nature but is still ruled by a Sith thus creating a Golden Age not seen before by the Sith. He turns the Chosen One to the dark side and is on the cusp of discovering immortality. All of these qualify him as a better candidate for the Sithari than Revan who was essentially just a very successful warlord.

For those wanting to say Palpatine destroyed the order by taking the knowledge with him when he died I have a few questions. First of all is there any link between the Jedi break off "Sith" that Darth Bane came from and the actual Sith? All I can see is a stolen Holocron, and Dark Lord indicates all the Sith Holocrons the Jedi have are skillful forgeries. Second seems as how the Lords of the Sith from the start were Dark Jedi, who came across the Sith race who had a somewhat more advanced method in their complex spells, which we don't see being used by Darth Bane's disciples what do you consider the things that defines them as actual Sith as opposed to Dark Jedi? That mountain thing Sidious instructs Vader to do in the novel, seems as how other then being instructed to refine his rage in Dark Lord Anakin doesn't appear to have received any real instruction?

So assuming he has this knowledge, is it really anymore lost then it was before the group Darth Bane would be part of did whatever? Is Korriban or other hiding places no longer viable? Seems as how Dark Lord indicates the Sith Holocrons the Jedi have are more propoganda and skillful fakes then the true thing, have the "Sith" Holocrons possessed by Plageus been destroyed?

Wiki article wrote:The Jedi would have you believe that peace is a desirable goal. That peace of the spirit is the way the Force is mastered, that a lack of conflict betters man. We know different. It is our passion... our hate and our desires... that fuels the Force. It is conflict that improves the lot of civilization and single being both. Conflict forces one to better oneself. It forces change, growth, adaption... evolution... or death. These are not our laws, but the universe's. Without conflict you have only stagnation.
What fuels your power with the Force but your passion? The stronger, darker emotions. Anger, hatred, fear... these passions empower us. Love is more dangerous than all those things. Love leads to anger and hatred more often than not... but is also leads to mercy, which is far worse. The Force gives us all power, even the Jedi. It is our mastery of our passion that gives us the strength they lack.
What keeps even the most rudimentary creature alive? Fear to run, anger to fight... without it a creature would most surely die. We are far more than them, but in some ways we are little different. To think us creatures beyond the need of simple passions is a delusion. It is our goal to be stronger, to achieve our potentials and not rest upon our laurels. We are the seekers, not the shepherds.
The stronger you become in the Force, the more power you will achieve. But always must you fight for your power. Without strife, your victory has no meaning. Without strife, you do not advance. Without strife, there is only stagnation.
How many victories can you imagine? Peaceful victory? Victory by sacrifice? A truce, an achievement? Unless the victory is achieved by demonstrating that your power is superior, it is only an illusion. Temporary at best. We seek more.
The chains represent our restrictions, both those placed upon us and those we place upon ourselves. Ultimately the goal of any Sith is to free herself from such restrictions. In a way, it is so we may do whatever we wish... but it is much more than that. One who has freed themselves from all restrictions has reached perfection. Their potential fulfilled. Perfect strength, perfect power, perfect destiny. That is our ideal, at any rate. It is said in Sith legend that the Sith'ari... perfect being... will one day lead us. The legends say the Sith'ari will destroy us... and make us stronger than ever. But perhaps that is just a legend. Perfection is... a goal, I think, rather than a state of being. The Jedi would argue that, no doubt.

Yes I know about the source but it's been a little while and messing up a quote like this is less likely then a lot of other things.

Thus the requirements are:
-Perfect being: One who has reached their potential and freed themselves from restrictions
-Must destroy the Sith, and then make them stronger
-Must lead the Sith, although whether this is before or after destroying them is unclear

Vader fails #1,2,3 there is flat out no way he's the Sith'ari. Sidious is debateable, as is Treya. Revan is a candidate, and the most likely of those listed with Treya in a close second. What Sidious did accomplish just doesn't line up that well with the actual prophecy requirements, there is no _us_ if we take into account Wankantine.

FOG3 wrote: Thus the requirements are:
-Perfect being: One who has reached their potential and freed themselves from restrictions
-Must destroy the Sith, and then make them stronger
-Must lead the Sith, although whether this is before or after destroying them is unclear

Well Palpatine came as close to Sith perfection as I think we've seen outside of Exar Kun, no? I've always saw him as the apex of the Sith. He takes their greatest attributes, personifies them, and acts with extreme prejudice to eliminate the Jedi

He destroyed Sith in the sense of eliminating Dooku to make room for Vader, thus strengthening the order. (granted this is a very tenuous statement).

And he was undoubtedly the master when it came to Vader and the acolytes he ammased.

To me it seems like he's a good fit.

Such rationalizations are rather tenous, thus Sidious is debateable. However if really want to have him as being the final link representing it's fulfilment it would seem much more likely Lord Kaan or Bane would be the actual Sith'ari.

Sarevok wrote:Revan does not meet the requirements for the Sithari Was not te Sithari was supposed to lead the Sith to their greatest heights before destroying them ? Well Revan did not even suceed in conquering the Republic. He wreaked havoc for 2 years then got replaced by his apprentice.. It seems more like what Yuthara said was still a prophecy waiting to be fullfilled 4000 years later by Palpatine.

Well, once again I'm referring to the Dark Side ending of the game, since it doesn't fit the Light Side ending at all.

Destroy us and make us stronger then ever is the what she said. IE: they have to get purged prior to hitting a new high.

Revan accomplishes this either ending. Either way he destroys the Sith he had built, and either way Treya who was probably under him, given things like the unmasking scene in un the steps of the Trayus Academy, so he's responsible for them. By destroying the Sith he reformed them into a much more powerful group that focussed on, as Treya puts it, what is really important. Sion, Nihilus, and Treya possessed great power that was in many respects well above anything that had come before and had a large following of underlings. Nihilus by himself was practically the Force version of a Death Star, pretty much apparently not threatened by fleets, able to "destroy" planets, albiet possessing a weakness that could be exploited by the right Jedi. Just like the Death Star.

Revan is the best fit to the actual requirements given, of candidates I've seen. From various characters he clearly leads a kind of charmed life favored by the Force, therefore unlike certain others he has perfect destiny. He might not have truly reached his potential yet, but he is clearly both powerful, strong, and basically unrestrained as the Sith see things.

YT300000 wrote:

Sarevok wrote:Revan does not meet the requirements for the Sithari Was not te Sithari was supposed to lead the Sith to their greatest heights before destroying them ? Well Revan did not even suceed in conquering the Republic. He wreaked havoc for 2 years then got replaced by his apprentice.. It seems more like what Yuthara said was still a prophecy waiting to be fullfilled 4000 years later by Palpatine.

Well, once again I'm referring to the Dark Side ending of the game, since it doesn't fit the Light Side ending at all.

Well, the point is kind of moot, considering the light-side ending is the canonical one (as it is in all SW games).

Noble Ire wrote:

YT300000 wrote:

Sarevok wrote:Revan does not meet the requirements for the Sithari Was not te Sithari was supposed to lead the Sith to their greatest heights before destroying them ? Well Revan did not even suceed in conquering the Republic. He wreaked havoc for 2 years then got replaced by his apprentice.. It seems more like what Yuthara said was still a prophecy waiting to be fullfilled 4000 years later by Palpatine.

Well, once again I'm referring to the Dark Side ending of the game, since it doesn't fit the Light Side ending at all.

Well, the point is kind of moot, considering the light-side ending is the canonical one (as it is in all SW games).

Does that apply to Episode III video game as well?

YT300000 wrote:

Sarevok wrote:Revan does not meet the requirements for the Sithari Was not te Sithari was supposed to lead the Sith to their greatest heights before destroying them ? Well Revan did not even suceed in conquering the Republic. He wreaked havoc for 2 years then got replaced by his apprentice.. It seems more like what Yuthara said was still a prophecy waiting to be fullfilled 4000 years later by Palpatine.

Well, once again I'm referring to the Dark Side ending of the game, since it doesn't fit the Light Side ending at all.

The dark side ending fits the Sithari requirements even less since in the dark side ending Revan becomes a Sith lord again instead of destroying the Sith empire he once built.

Well, the point is kind of moot, considering the light-side ending is the canonical one (as it is in all SW games).

In the KOTOR boards I post at the general consensus is KOTOR has an open ended ending. Like Revan's gender the true ending of KOTOR is up to the player to decide. Has it been officially decided what is Revan’s gender and the canon ending for KOTOR ?

Regarding KOTOR 2 I am not sure whether it is canon at all. The first game is canon and has many entries in the SW databank. But KOTOR 2 is virtually ignored there. Personally I feel it is a good thing. Compared to the first KOTOR the sequel was awful. It’s plot resembles the generic FPS plot of the Jedi Knight games rather than the well written story of KOTOR 1.

Does that apply to Episode III video game as well?

What light side ending?

In the KOTOR boards I post at the general consensus is KOTOR has an open ended ending. Like Revan's gender the true ending of KOTOR is up to the player to decide. Has it been officially decided what is Revan’s gender and the canon ending for KOTOR ?

Chee and (IIRC) the new Chronology have made it clear that the light side path is the canonical one. I'm not certain on the gender issue, although the same volume may have noted him as being male (I'll check when I can).

Regarding KOTOR 2 I am not sure whether it is canon at all. The first game is canon and has many entries in the SW databank. But KOTOR 2 is virtually ignored there. Personally I feel it is a good thing. Compared to the first KOTOR the sequel was awful. It’s plot resembles the generic FPS plot of the Jedi Knight games rather than the well written story of KOTOR 1.

Regardless of your personal view on the matter, and the quality of its storyline, KOTOR2 is still official, as per the new Essential Guide to Chronology, and the simple fact that it was never stated as being non-canonical.

KotOR light side male ending is canon. Chee says so, NEC backs him up.

(Actually, I recall Chee backpedaling recently about the LS ending... but the NEC says it's the canon one anyhow, so it doesn't matter.)

TSL is undecided on both gender and correct ending.