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I was wondering what he means by this. Did him dying and becoming one with the force grant him any abilities that he could, but could not use (similar to Daniel Jackson being ascended, but not allowed to use his powers)

At one point he says that Luke has to go after Vader alone, that he couldn't interfere, whether he just meant that he couldn't advise him on what to do, or whether he couldn't will Vader out of existence.

In the screenplay and novelization of ROTS, Qui-Gon explains to Yoda that he, by following Qui-Gon's training, will be able to merge with the Force at will and still be able to retain his consciousness and that this will make him stronger than any Sith. After Yoda has realized this he says: "A power greater than all, it is."

I think his ability to talk to and influence luke unhindered was his greatest advantage in this case. Regardless he new that once luke became a jedi Vader and the empire's days were numbered and that all he felt that needed doind was done.

LeftWingExtremist wrote:I think his ability to talk to and influence luke unhindered was his greatest advantage in this case. Regardless he new that once luke became a jedi Vader and the empire's days were numbered and that all he felt that needed doind was done.

Agreed, he was able to refer Luke to Yoda even when he had died.

Shrykull wrote:I was wondering what he means by this. Did him dying and becoming one with the force grant him any abilities that he could, but could not use (similar to Daniel Jackson being ascended, but not allowed to use his powers)

At one point he says that Luke has to go after Vader alone, that he couldn't interfere, whether he just meant that he couldn't advise him on what to do, or whether he couldn't will Vader out of existence.

I would assume what he meant is that he'd be part of the Force, yet still hiimself. He could go where he wanted and see what he wanted, touch everything. He might very well be able to influence all sorts of shit, we don't know.

But Lukes journey was special, his choice not to turn in paramount to Vader's epiphany that Vader didn't necessarily have to make the choice he did ~20 years ago. His very son was brave enough to die to save someone, rather than Anakins turn to evil to save someone. Vaders choice ~20 something years earlier was exposed as greedy and self serving, which gave Anakin the strength to make another choice with Luke.

[/end mini rant]

Anyway, point being; Lukes journey was key in the route to 'balance the Force' and as such the Force (and by extension Obi Wan) wouldn't want to interfer with this since the whole point of the last ~30 years of SW history was to bring about a balance in the Force.

Prod and poke Luke in the right direction? Absolutely. Make the decision for him? No. Luke must make the decion himself, Obi being a part of the Force and seeing everything just makes sure the enviroment and situation arrises.

Which is pretty much, imo, what he tried to do when he was alive.

I've always suspected that a large part of the Emporer's failure at Endor was due to Obi-Wan and Yoda feeding him false visions about the future, thus leading the Emporer to make some really stupid decisions. I don't think the EU agrees with me on this, but screw the EU.

The statements here also make sense, but part of it could be Obi-Wan just bluffing.

I mean, giant Sith Lord about to slice you in half, I'd try to convince him it wasn't a good plan too.

Obi-Wan couldn't have known exactly what it'd be like as one-with-the-Force aside from stuff Qui-Gon would've told him.
The primary thing he knows is that he will go on after being killed, where Vader can't touch him. He's essentially saying "Go ahead and kill me. I'll get life after death which is more than you have, tin man."

One thing i do wonder about is, if Qui-gon discovered the way to become one with force opon death and showed it to Yoda and then Obi-wan - how the hell did anakin find the way to become the force ghost at the end of RotJ? (this might be answered in some EU stuff - i have not read it anyware).

Aquatain wrote:One thing i do wonder about is, if Qui-gon discovered the way to become one with force opon death and showed it to Yoda and then Obi-wan - how the hell did anakin find the way to become the force ghost at the end of RotJ? (this might be answered in some EU stuff - i have not read it anyware).

Well Qui Gon could do it after death why couldn't Obi Wan teach Anakin after death? Perhaps Obi Wan appeared to Anakin while Luke was dragging him to the shuttle and got him the basics before he died.

Isolder74 wrote:

Aquatain wrote:One thing i do wonder about is, if Qui-gon discovered the way to become one with force opon death and showed it to Yoda and then Obi-wan - how the hell did anakin find the way to become the force ghost at the end of RotJ? (this might be answered in some EU stuff - i have not read it anyware).

Well Qui Gon could do it after death why couldn't Obi Wan teach Anakin after death? Perhaps Obi Wan appeared to Anakin while Luke was dragging him to the shuttle and got him the basics before he died.

Well he could.. but what would be his motives, i mean would you preserve Anakin for the future thinking of all he's done (including killing Obi-wan). ?

Isolder74 wrote:

Aquatain wrote:One thing i do wonder about is, if Qui-gon discovered the way to become one with force opon death and showed it to Yoda and then Obi-wan - how the hell did anakin find the way to become the force ghost at the end of RotJ? (this might be answered in some EU stuff - i have not read it anyware).

Well Qui Gon could do it after death why couldn't Obi Wan teach Anakin after death? Perhaps Obi Wan appeared to Anakin while Luke was dragging him to the shuttle and got him the basics before he died.

Remember that there is no evidence of anybody teaching Qui Gon how to do it yet he was still able to. Perhaps Anakin figured it out himself.

Nightbringer wrote:

Isolder74 wrote:

Aquatain wrote:One thing i do wonder about is, if Qui-gon discovered the way to become one with force opon death and showed it to Yoda and then Obi-wan - how the hell did anakin find the way to become the force ghost at the end of RotJ? (this might be answered in some EU stuff - i have not read it anyware).

Well Qui Gon could do it after death why couldn't Obi Wan teach Anakin after death? Perhaps Obi Wan appeared to Anakin while Luke was dragging him to the shuttle and got him the basics before he died.

Remember that there is no evidence of anybody teaching Qui Gon how to do it yet he was still able to. Perhaps Anakin figured it out himself.

If you take the Force to be the equivelant of 'Fate' for the SW universe, it may be a reward for those who participated in the 'balancing of the Force'. A way to repay those put in situations and pushed to do certain things so the galaxy could balance out.

Isolder74 wrote:Well Qui Gon could do it after death why couldn't Obi Wan teach Anakin after death?

Nightbringer wrote:Remember that there is no evidence of anybody teaching Qui Gon how to do it yet he was still able to. Perhaps Anakin figured it out himself.

Exactly.. if Qui-Gon could figure it out entirely on his own (even if he's possibly the first Jedi in 25,000 years to do it), what's wrong with Anakin learning it after death?
It'd be much less effort than learning it on your own, too, since the three Jedi Masters could have taught Anakin after he died.

I really don't see why people have a problem with it at all!

Cykeisme wrote:

Isolder74 wrote:Well Qui Gon could do it after death why couldn't Obi Wan teach Anakin after death?

Nightbringer wrote:Remember that there is no evidence of anybody teaching Qui Gon how to do it yet he was still able to. Perhaps Anakin figured it out himself.

Exactly.. if Qui-Gon could figure it out entirely on his own (even if he's possibly the first Jedi in 25,000 years to do it), what's wrong with Anakin learning it after death?
It'd be much less effort than learning it on your own, too, since the three Jedi Masters could have taught Anakin after he died.

I really don't see why people have a problem with it at all!

The one problem is that it took Qui Gon many many years to do it yet Anakin was able to do it very soon after death, could the Emperor have taught it to Darth Vader?

Nightbringer wrote:

Actually, we don't no how long it took Qui Gon to figure it out, but it mos certainly did not take years! Anakin and Yoda didn't first hear Qui-Gon until AOTC; but he might have been off exploring the Force the whole time and only tried to communicate with them when it was necessary. After all even though Obi-Wan was able to immediatly help Luke in ANH, he doesn't contact him again or physically, manifest himself until more than three years latter.

Anakin is more powerful than Obi-wan. I see no problem with him coming back so quickly. Now coming back as Hayden, well.....

could the Emperor have taught it to Darth Vader?

No, it is a light-side-only thing.

In Rogue Planet , wasn't Anakin already in contact with Qui Gon? And Obiwan shrugs this off as an illusion?

Base Delta Zero wrote:

could the Emperor have taught it to Darth Vader?

No, it is a light-side-only thing.

It's an interesting compare and contrast thing, isn't it. Anakin turns to the darkside because Sidious implies that he, via his master, has the power to keep people alive. He wants this for padme, plus I've got to assume for himself. Especially later when he's a walking ironlung.

But true immortality laid along the path he did not travel. Plageus and Sidious may have had a life prolonger, but the immortality was on the light side, and Anakin choose wrong *again*.

Knife wrote:

Base Delta Zero wrote:

could the Emperor have taught it to Darth Vader?

No, it is a light-side-only thing.

It's an interesting compare and contrast thing, isn't it. Anakin turns to the darkside because Sidious implies that he, via his master, has the power to keep people alive. He wants this for padme, plus I've got to assume for himself. Especially later when he's a walking ironlung.

But true immortality laid along the path he did not travel. Plageus and Sidious may have had a life prolonger, but the immortality was on the light side, and Anakin choose wrong *again*.

Non-corporeal immortality for a chosen few, who were very strong in the Force to begin with.
Padme had no Force-sensitivity whatsoever, let alone the Force presence that Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin had.
So it's hardly a comparison. Even if he was aware of that choice what he wanted was for Padme to live, not for himself to be immortal.

That aside, Sidious was quite obviously lying. Whether or not what Plagueis did was true, *he* didn't know and probably would never know.

Cao Cao wrote:
Non-corporeal immortality for a chosen few, who were very strong in the Force to begin with.
Padme had no Force-sensitivity whatsoever, let alone the Force presence that Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin had.
So it's hardly a comparison. Even if he was aware of that choice what he wanted was for Padme to live, not for himself to be immortal.

That aside, Sidious was quite obviously lying. Whether or not what Plagueis did was true, *he* didn't know and probably would never know.

Padme only figures into it emotionally, I didn't mean to say she's a Force ghost. It's just interesting that the 'live forever' power used by Sidious to lure Anakin wasn't really true, or at most a bandaide and the real 'live forever' power was on the Jedi side.

Knife wrote:

Base Delta Zero wrote:

could the Emperor have taught it to Darth Vader?

No, it is a light-side-only thing.

It's an interesting compare and contrast thing, isn't it. Anakin turns to the darkside because Sidious implies that he, via his master, has the power to keep people alive. He wants this for padme, plus I've got to assume for himself. Especially later when he's a walking ironlung.

But true immortality laid along the path he did not travel. Plageus and Sidious may have had a life prolonger, but the immortality was on the light side, and Anakin choose wrong *again*.

It's interesting, because it helps reveal a fundamental difference in the mindset between the mighty dark-side users and the mighty light-side users. The dark side users' primary concern is avoiding death, so they try to use their powers to either keep their bodies alive, or jump from body to body.

The light side, by contrast, means that the users have to become one with the force (although they retain consciousness), embracing the end of their physical existence. It's the whole surrender vs control issue again.

Base Delta Zero wrote:

could the Emperor have taught it to Darth Vader?

No, it is a light-side-only thing.

Aside from a crapload of EU contradicting this statement, I seem to recall the canon novels overriding it to some degree. Something about Maul and other sith spending their time in an afterworld which you might call chaos. But meh, I don't feel like digging it up. EU force spirits galore should be enough.