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This poll is in response to the whole Clone Army size controversy. Please note I am not just doing this only to mock the 3 million number, but as an honest question as well. Here goes.

The scenario: The (hypothetical) three million Clone strong Grand Army of the Republic invades Earth.

Earth has one month to prepare for the attack.
All the major military powers band together and coordinate for a unified resistence.
The Iraqi insurgency suddenly dissipates, freeing up 150k US troops and however many armed muslims to fight the clones.

The Clones get dropships and Venators to land them.
The Venators bombard a majority of the world Nuke silos from orbit, but after that provide no orbital support.
The Clones have all their basic equipment, ie walkers, artillery, and LAATs.
The Clones also have three dozen Jedi generals to lead the attack.

Can the GAR capture and secure Earth while leaving the population and basic infrastructure intact?
Can they gain sufficient control so that there are not major continuing insurgencies?

Even if the world nuclear capacity weren't reduced by orbital bombardment, its use wouldn't do much. A few well-placed nukes could take out large swaths of troops, but LAATs alone have shrugged off hits from more powerful weapons.

Add to that that stormtrooper armor, the descended of the modern clone armor, is highly resistant to projectile weapons. The gaps in scout armor could be hit with well-placed shots, but the more heavily armored shock troops might end up being nigh invulnerable to most small arms.

Then turn it around. Haven't calculations here and elsewhere estimated some SW small-arms hitting KT range? If so, you could have clone troopers taking out MBTs with their rifles.

Not going into the 3 dozen Jedi. That situation just gets painful, particularly if you look at some of the more wanky stuff Jedi have done.

IMHO, a large proportion of the Earth population probably won't fight. Most will be the "I don't care if they are in charge so long as they don't interfere with my life" type. Probably add a few "Bide our time until we sink our claws into some of their tech" people. Most civilians not of these two camps probably won't have the resources to hurt the clones in any significant way (don't have access to high explosives, etc).

So, maybe some pocket resistance, but 3 million clones will probably end up rolling over the Earth without much trouble.

Add to that that stormtrooper armor, the descended of the modern clone armor, is highly resistant to projectile weapons. The gaps in scout armor could be hit with well-placed shots, but the more heavily armored shock troops might end up being nigh invulnerable to most small arms.

Their joints are still volunerable. Trooper for trooper, their armor is far superior, but massed fire would still bring a squad of clones down eventually. I doubt you'd see them marching across and open field towards machine gun nests, each absorbing thousands of bullets unphased.

Then turn it around. Haven't calculations here and elsewhere estimated some SW small-arms hitting KT range? If so, you could have clone troopers taking out MBTs with their rifles.

Kilotons? I've never heard that.

Not going into the 3 dozen Jedi. That situation just gets painful, particularly if you look at some of the more wanky stuff Jedi have done.

Again, massed fire. However, Jedi would make better inflitrators, spies, and (in some cases) urban ops soldiers than anything Earth can field.

So, maybe some pocket resistance, but 3 million clones will probably end up rolling over the Earth without much trouble.

It all depends, I think. If alliances are spotty, the GAR could probably run riot over the globe, yes, but with a coalition of major powers, if such a thing could be organized again (US, European Union, China, Russia, etc.) Earth might be able to slow the clone army by, as they say, "drowning them in their blood." However, considering the advantage LAATs and KT-armored tanks bring, the GAR would still probably be able to win, although occuption would be virtually impossible if there was any concerted resistance. You'd need at least five times the given number, if not more.

Noble Ire wrote:Kilotons? I've never heard that.

Yeah, it's probably wrong. Thinking back, I probably heard it in regard to vehicle weapons.

However, considering the advantage LAATs and KT-armored tanks bring, the GAR would still probably be able to win, although occuption would be virtually impossible if there was any concerted resistance. You'd need at least five times the given number, if not more.

I do agree that 3 million is a little low for an occupation on any world putting up determined resistance, though the exact number changes with what tactics the clones use to put down resistance. If they methodically burn every city that puts up the slightest resistance, chances are they'd eventually be able to hold the place with less numbers, but it would largely defeat the goal of taking Earth with as much of the infrastructure intact as possible.

Clonetrooper rifles are about 10 MJ a shot IIRC. It's fighter weapons that are 1 KT a shot weapons.

Civil War Man wrote:

Noble Ire wrote:Kilotons? I've never heard that.

Yeah, it's probably wrong. Thinking back, I probably heard it in regard to vehicle weapons.

It's starfighter weapons.

If they want to preserve as much as possible and hold the planet, then the "Grand Army" of 3 million just won't cut it.

Even with more destructive vehicles and ships, they'd have a hard time striking down massive uprisings all over the globe, let alone be everywhere at once. And if they have to use excessive force, that kinda defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

And those walker-legs are just begging to get charges stuck to them in urban ambushes.

Government militaries fall quickly, followed by insurgencies pretty much everywhere. Some governments create shadow governments, their troops go to ground (following the template of the Iraqi insurgency) and wait for opportune times to strike Clone targets from relative anonymity (Clones tending to stick out like sore thumbs and all).

They can capture Earth, with the firepower they have and resist? We'll hurt individuals, we may kill a few walkers, but not before that thing lays waste to swaths of us...and nuking them? How? I don't remember anything we have having that type of accuracy in that particular range. I mean when muntions on one side is anti armor in the Kt range...Earth of the 20th century is fucked.

Holding it is something entirely different. Given securing the planet is a parameter, then no...they cannot.

Attack? Absolutely.

Win without too much mass destruction? Possibly.

Occupy indefinitely? Not a chance in hell.

That is, of course, neglecting to mention the massive tech advantage for the Tiny Army of the Republic, which they wouldn't have in regards to most SW planets that matters. Even a relatively primitive world as Kashyyk has Wookies with bowcasters, missile launchers, catamarans and ornithopters. Not including decimators, tanks and berserkers from Galactic Battlegrounds....

Lasgun stuff split to OSF.

Ok, three million clonetroopers?

They would "win" in the same way the US "won" Iraq - i.e. they would crush the standing armies and quickly find that they do not have the numbers to hold the place. Six billion people vs three million clones, that's roughly two thousand people per clone. In Iraq right now there are roughly 160 people per US soldier, so the situation would be more than an order of magnitude worse.

Lord Zentei wrote:In Iraq right now there are roughly 160 people per US soldier, so the situation would be more than an order of magnitude worse.

Actually it's a lot better than that - most of the population is on-side / neutral as far as actually attacking US troops is concerned.

Still, 6bn vs <3m surviving Clones does not look good. Sure they'd win the war itself like you suggest, but the peace? I doubt it very much. Remember the Ewoks and their rocks? Drop enough rocks on enough heads and Earth is free again .

Earth wins because Temeura Morrison could sneak into the Clone Army's HQ with a bomb and they'd never know what hit 'em.

Elfdart wrote:Earth wins because Temeura Morrison could sneak into the Clone Army's HQ with a bomb and they'd never know what hit 'em.

If that could be done, why bother?
Just put Ian McDiarmid in costume and have him tell the GAR to buzz off.

Stage One: Land Venators and take off rapidly from every military base in the world. This will, A: Crush 600 meter by 100 meter sections of them, B: Bake the area around the crushed areas quite thoroughly, and C: Encourage Earth to waste their nukes in futile efforts to destroy the unstoppable juggernauts, while actually nuking their own troops.

I don't have any long-term plans past this because it just sounds like too much fun.

Two words... "Mission accomplished"

We outnumber them 2,000 to 1. Over-strength stone-age Carebears managed to massacre and entire legion of the Empire's BEST TROOPS, the descendents of the clones.

The Carebears used tiny bows and big rocks.

We have BVR missiles, tanks, and old soviet AKs all over the planet.

Quantity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Quality, in this case.

Plus, Ian McDiarmid would confuse the fuck outta them. Imagine the possibilities.

We outnumber them 2,000 to 1. Over-strength stone-age Carebears managed to massacre and entire legion of the Empire's BEST TROOPS, the descendents of the clones.

The Carebears used tiny bows and big rocks.

We have BVR missiles, tanks, and old soviet AKs all over the planet.

Quantity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Quality, in this case.

Yes, because we would catch them in every single engagement completely off-guard and trapped in terrain that negates their advantages in armor and gear. Hell, I bet a an armored SUV with a mounted gun on the top could probably tear right through an AT-AT, KT rated armor and all.

Noble Ire wrote:

We outnumber them 2,000 to 1. Over-strength stone-age Carebears managed to massacre and entire legion of the Empire's BEST TROOPS, the descendents of the clones.

The Carebears used tiny bows and big rocks.

We have BVR missiles, tanks, and old soviet AKs all over the planet.

Quantity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Quality, in this case.

Yes, because we would catch them in every single engagement completely off-guard and trapped in terrain that negates their advantages in armor and gear. Hell, I bet a an armored SUV with a mounted gun on the top could probably tear right through an AT-AT, KT rated armor and all.

And where of where are these Republican AT-ATs?

Besides, of course we could catch them off-guard. We outnumber them by a wide enough margin that it doesn't matter at all anyway. We could ignore weaponry and charge them with steak knives and still manage to destroy the entire Grand Army of the Republic, blasters and plasteel armour be damned.

Still though, they can't keep SPHA-Ts patrolling every street, and if ten guys get together armed with knives, sub-machine guns and pipe bombs they could easily ambush Clone Troopers in an urban environment, using the force of bullet impacts or explosions to wind them and knock them down ad then just ganging up and beating one to death.

Even assuming just 1% of humanity wants to destroy these space-based oppressors, we still outnumber them 60 to 1, and in small-scale urban ambushes, we could almost never lose.

Also, if some small brush and ridges in a lightly forested clearing "totally negate" their advantages, then they would be fucked royally in almost any environment.

This would become Vietnam/ Iraq x100 in any case.

Secondly, the Ewoks were, though crafty and perhaps rather strong, were stone-age barbarians. We both 1. Have long-range firearms and explosives far superior to bolas and log-traps (Claymore mine vs. Scout Walker, anyone?) and 2. Know a fuckton of information about the OOB, tactics, and equipment of the GAR.

They would not even have the spare men to be able even to patrol anything but metropolises, and they can't exactly try to BDZ every singly large town, hamlet, village, etc. that has no one to enforce this rule and rebels.

Did you sleep through RotJ? Did you miss the Ewoks being killed? Or the fact that there was a Rebel commando team helping? Not to mention Chewie's captured AT-ST?
How about the fact that it was just one battallion with no heavy vehicle support in a forest, and the Rebels only won because the garrison commander was an idiot and opened the base doors which had nothing to do with the Ewoks.

And where of where are these Republican AT-ATs?

My mistake; I meant to refer to the Republic's heavy armor, like Juggernauts and the like.

As to the rest, you really ought to read the thread. Its already been made pretty clear that the GAR couldn't hold Earth in an occupation. However, there is no way in hell, short of massive nuclear bombardment, that any modern force could face a Republican task force in an open battle. Armor and armament of both vehicles and soldiers would tear through all but the most massive (and I mean massive) of modern forces. Modern tanks and artillery probably couldn't scratch Republican walkers and Juggernauts, SPHA-Ts can blow through any modern defense in moments, Clone Troopers have armor, while not immune to bullets, that is vastly superior to that of any real uniform, with rapid-fire side arms with yields comperable to hand grenades to boot, and close air support far more versatile and powerful than any Earth has at its disposable.

As far as I can tell, the only unknown factor would be modern fighter jets and bombers. Otherwise, there's no contest.

The real unknown factor here is how they would fare in the "hearts and minds" contest, which would in turn depend on exactly how they conduct themselves. "Securing Earth" does not necessarily mean occupying every city and state. If they can build bases in certain locations and secure co-operation from the major existing territorial leaders rather than foolishly overthrowing every single national government, destroying its infrastructure, and attempting to construct their own replacement bureaucracies from scratch (hint hint), maybe they could achieve some success in this endeavour.

Remember that they did successfully wipe out all the nuke silos, thus demonstrating power that the terrestrial nations know they have no answer to (they don't need to know that the starships won't be doing that again). Negotiation with the major territorial powers is a perfectly realistic possibility, especially if they offer something in return.

Darth Wong wrote:The real unknown factor here is how they would fare in the "hearts and minds" contest, which would in turn depend on exactly how they conduct themselves.

I wouldn't really call it occupation anymore if they gain the support of the majority of the population. Or even a minority in power with the large masses not caring much.

In that case we might call it "colonization" to paraphrase the Romans. But sure, if they can do that, mission accomplished.

But here's a thought: Why would we want to fight?
Earth and the human race are offered a place in the Galactic Republic, access to technology that could solve god knows how many of the worlds problems, and opportunities beyond count. Where is the need for invasion?

If a Venator just popped into orbit, said 'Hey guys, guess what, you're not alone, come join the Galactic Republic, it'll be fun', I don't see the reason for resistance. Especially since in the Republic allows planets to keep their own governmental system as well.