Just when you thought Yoda was smart....

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2002-12-25 08:56pm

he goes and does something insanley stupid. Consider this, Dooku smashes pillar to fall on Obi-Wan and Anakin. Yoda stops his pursuit of Dooku, and after a time-consuming struggle, saves them. Pretty heroic, huh? But wouldn't it have been more heroic to, oh say, KILL DOOKU!

Instead of wasting his time lifting that pillar, he could have far more easily just have shoved the two fallen Jedi out of the way. What could have possilby possesed him to make such a poor choice? Taking 10 seconds lifting the pillar vs. waving his arm and shoving the two out of the way, a simple choice, no?

SO then why doesn't Yoda do it? Is it some macho jedi thing? I doubt it. Is that since hecan lift the enourmous pillar, it was the first thing that came to his mind? He could have stopped thewar right there, saved those two idiots, and then went and stabbed Dooku through the back. But to no avail. I fear the Jedi are far more stupid than once percieved.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-12-25 09:05pm

Hey, there's two injured comrades on the ground. Lets toss them about!

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2002-12-25 09:28pm

Yes Howedar, I'm sure the first thing that would have come to Yoda's mind had he decided to do this was "I think I'll unleash a bone shattering push on them, cause thats the kind of guy I turned out to be!"

I'm certain he could have used a more gentle form of movement, a "mini-push" if you will.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-12-25 09:29pm

You do know that you dont want to move someone severly injured unless you have to due to shock and what not, right?

Joe Momma · Post by **Joe Momma** » 2002-12-25 10:10pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:I'm certain he could have used a more gentle form of movement, a "mini-push" if you will.

I'm not sure how gentle a push he could have used if he was going to get them out from under that falling machinery in time (and far enough that when it hit the floor, the two Jedi wouldn't get hit by any of the debris that might have spalled off of it, for that matter).

But let's assume for a moment that he could have done so. Not doing so doesn't necessarily make him an idiot. He had to make a split-second decision and was likely focused on the object of the danger itself: the falling machinery. IOW, I think it was more of an instinctive thing to stop the falling object than to try to grab the two hapless Jedi, just as people in RL will tend to grab an object that is tossed to them without consciously thinking about it, even if catching turns out to be a bad idea. A second's thought might have compelled him to grab the Jedi instead, but a second later would have killed them anyway.

-- Joe Momma

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-12-25 10:22pm

force is ineffective against the living. old news. gave yoda no choice. question answered, thread pointless.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-12-25 10:25pm

WTF?!

So Vader choking from afar was some bizarro trick?

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2002-12-25 10:53pm

kojikun wrote:force is ineffective against the living. old news. gave yoda no choice. question answered, thread pointless.

Whaa? Oh, so I guess Palpatine's force lightning shouldn't have harmed Luke because he was alive?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-12-25 11:35pm

kojikun wrote:force is ineffective against the living. old news. gave yoda no choice. question answered, thread pointless.

Back away from the crackpipe.

Captain Kruger · Post by **Captain Kruger** » 2002-12-26 01:07am

kojikun wrote:force is ineffective against the living. old news. gave yoda no choice. question answered, thread pointless.

WTF???? Have you ever even watched Star Wars? Let's see, Vader uses the Force to choke people, Palpatine blasts the shit out of Luke with Force Lightning, Dooku blasts the shit out of Anakin with Force Lightning...do I really need to go on? Just what movies have you been watching called Star Wars?

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2002-12-26 03:02am

kojikun wrote:I enjoy overdosing on crack cocaine. Also, I have bees in my brain, constantly muddling my thoughts with their crazy elixir of crazyness.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-12-26 08:11am

Don't forget Maul's Force-bitchslap into the pit in TPM

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2002-12-26 08:15am

kojikun wrote:force is ineffective against the living. old news. gave yoda no choice. question answered, thread pointless.

I would just like to know how you concluded that?

SCRawl · Post by **SCRawl** » 2002-12-26 10:06am

Here's a better one: why didn't he drop the pillar on Dooku's ship after saving Messrs. Kenobi & Skywalker?

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2002-12-26 11:01am

Instead of Force pushing Obi-Wan and Anakin couldn't he have used the Force to pull them towards him and out of the way?

Also, instead of catching and then throwing that big pillar thing why not just Force show it away from Obi-Wan and Anakin, maybe even towards Dooku's ship?

Unless, Dooku was somehow strong enough to block Yoda long enough that his only option to save Obi and Anakin was to catch the pillar?

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2002-12-26 12:35pm

Maybe if the pillar fell over the damage would have been too devastating to even survive. I don't recall what the "pillar" really was. Who knows what's under the hangar deck or even inside the pillar?

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2002-12-26 12:36pm

Which might show how desperate Dooku was.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2002-12-26 01:00pm

Thanks for bringing that up Darth Garden Gnome. Thats been baking my noodle for months now.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-12-26 01:08pm

You don't move injured people. Its a bad idea.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-12-26 01:23pm

A few thoughts.

Yoda letting Dooku go to save his companions. Well you don't leave fallen comrades behind. Human nature and all (yes Yoda is not a human but the audiance is suppost to identify with him). The structure of the Jedi seems to be one of extreme loyalty to the order. This is apperently a method of deterring Jedi from straying from the path. Note that in the history of the Order, only twenty have strayed. If the Jedi are trained from an early age to be loyal to the order and that all in the order are "brothers" this would effictively bond them together and letting two die while you catch the badguy would assualt the foundation of the order. Apperently in the Jedi Order as with most armies, you have the "leave no one behind" philosiphy to bond the troops together and make them an even better force.

As for the idea of pushing them out of the way as opposed to catching the piller. One tends to do what they know or have been trained for in an emergency. The Jedi spend alot of time levitating things in their training, and while a force push in in there too it is more of a combat technique than anything. So when you need to save someone from a falling object the first option that came to mind would be to catch it. Also note while in combat, Yoda didn't force push the celling away from him, he caught it with the force and then pushed it away. In my mind, this would indicate that to push something, one needs to "set" it up. Too have a somewhat control over it first before sending it bye bye. Obviously to catch it you need to control it too, but by catching it you have "set" it up for a push.

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2002-12-26 02:22pm

That's an interesting deduction there. It doesn't explain Maul, however, by what you have said, he was close enough and all he needed to do was get Obi Wan into the pit. I think it was just more instinctive for Yoda to catch the pillar. Which actually shows a whole new dimension on the Jedi. Obi Wan told Anakin they would have to leave Padme behind or risk being expelled. Not only that but that catching Dooku could end the war and that was more important. They've lost Jedi already, why save two more when you could end the war? Basically it seems to fall to a react first sort of thing. Not only that, but the struggle Yoda had to put up in order to keep the column from dropping would translate to him being weakened after his bout with Dooku. Which means he prolly wouldn't have been able to control his force push or pull enough to effectively save Anakin and Obi Wan. Whereas just catching the pillar and then tossing it was a quick sure fire means to saving the two Jedi.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2002-12-26 03:02pm

Exhibit A: "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."

Exhibit B: It's difficult to move the living with the Force. Proven in the other thread, http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=8611

Conclusion: Yoda is still smart.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2002-12-26 03:32pm

nightmare wrote:Exhibit A: "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."

I doubt that pushing fellow Jedi's out from under a pillar that is about to chrush them could be considered attacking them by any rational standard.

nightmare wrote:Exhibit B: It's difficult to move the living with the Force. Proven in the other thread, http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=8611

Eh, that thread deals with Jedi's flying, not pushing living beings around with force. And the only one who made any mention of Forces supposed ineffectivenes against living abjects is kojikun.
Besides Dooku didn't have much difficulty in pushing Anakin around after he had severed his hand.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-12-26 03:35pm

DG_Cal_Wright wrote:That's an interesting deduction there. It doesn't explain Maul, however, by what you have said, he was close enough and all he needed to do was get Obi Wan into the pit. I think it was just more instinctive for Yoda to catch the pillar. Which actually shows a whole new dimension on the Jedi. Obi Wan told Anakin they would have to leave Padme behind or risk being expelled. Not only that but that catching Dooku could end the war and that was more important. They've lost Jedi already, why save two more when you could end the war? Basically it seems to fall to a react first sort of thing. Not only that, but the struggle Yoda had to put up in order to keep the column from dropping would translate to him being weakened after his bout with Dooku. Which means he prolly wouldn't have been able to control his force push or pull enough to effectively save Anakin and Obi Wan. Whereas just catching the pillar and then tossing it was a quick sure fire means to saving the two Jedi.

A refinemnet to my original thought: Perhaps it is more of a brute strengnth/finess type thing. Levitation is brute strength but to push a small object takes finess based off the above skill. When Yoda decided to save the two fallen Jedi, he did not have time for finess so went with brute strength.

And as far as Obi leaving Padme when she fell, well she wasn't a Jedi and Dooku was. They need to protect their own and when one of their own goes bad, then the Jedi's "leave no one behind" mentality switches over to "clean up your own mess" attitude.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2002-12-26 03:54pm

Sir Sirius wrote:
nightmare wrote:Exhibit A: "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."
I doubt that pushing fellow Jedi's out from under a pillar that is about to chrush them could be considered attacking them by any rational standard.
nightmare wrote:Exhibit B: It's difficult to move the living with the Force. Proven in the other thread, http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=8611
Eh, that thread deals with Jedi's flying, not pushing living beings around with force. And the only one who made any mention of Forces supposed ineffectivenes against living abjects is kojikun.
Besides Dooku didn't have much difficulty in pushing Anakin around after he had severed his hand.

A: I was referring to Darth Garden Gnome's original objection: "But wouldn't it have been more heroic to, oh say, KILL DOOKU! "

B: It's the same thing. Push enough keep it up, and you fly. I don't care how many people say Jedi have no problems with it; evidence says otherwise. Jumping, yes, but flying casually or simply hold up an opponent in the air to slice him, no.