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Hypothetical scenario ahoy!

What if, at the climax of the Battle of Endor from RoTJ, the entire Endor system was instantaneously sucked into a singularity at the centre of where once sat the star, which was promptly pocketed by an elderly gentleman wearing a tweed jacket who then disappeared from the Universe.

This means all the heroes, Vader, Palpatine (and his soul!), the rebel fleet, the Imperial fleet, and all the mass within the boundaries of that system are eliminated.

What happens?

Empire breaks into civil war as various Imperial Admirals, Governors, and Moffs begin to fight eachother for dominance. If Thrawn manages to avoid having his arrogance get the best of him, then he conquers all and restores the Empire with him at its head. If not then the Galaxy is separated into a large amount of independent and semi-independent kingdoms, fiefdoms, rulerships, republics, and other national and semi-national entities.

I presume the Vong might actually succeed in conquering the the Galaxy this time around. On the other hand, the balkanization of the Empire could cause an arms race between the ensuing nations and thus the Galaxy would be considerably more militarized when the Vong show-up.

I presume the Vong might actually succeed in conquering the the Galaxy this time around. On the other hand, the balkanization of the Empire could cause an arms race between the ensuing nations and thus the Galaxy would be considerably more militarized when the Vong show-up.

I think that the Vong would lose either way in your two scenarios.

If Thrawn's ruling then they get bitchslapped straight away, he wont screw around like the New Rep/Imperial Remnant. If it is more independant kingdoms, then the buildup of arms would ensue that the vong are up against a much more militarised galaxy, and again with Imp leaders who wont fart around like the New Rep.

Why wait for Thrawn returning from the UR?

With Palpatine gone, nobody is pulling the strings behind the curtain and Sate Pestage will take over. No loss of large territories to the rebels since they are gone, so no loss of taxes and resources.

There might be a few imperials trying to go warlord, but the majority of the empire should stay largely intact.

Sate who?

And I think atg is right, the Vong are horribly screwed.

I will say one thing, with Luke gone it means the end of the insuferable Jedi!

No more stupid plotdevices or Deus exs! no more whinny brats or horribly over wanked powers! No more stupid mystical mumbo jumbo. The galaxy instead comes down to just Real men baby! (and women, you know)

FTeik wrote:Why wait for Thrawn returning from the UR?

With Palpatine gone, nobody is pulling the strings behind the curtain and Sate Pestage will take over. No loss of large territories to the rebels since they are gone, so no loss of taxes and resources.

There might be a few imperials trying to go warlord, but the majority of the empire should stay largely intact.

Neither Sate nor anyone else in the Emperor's ruling circle have the political clout, at least by themselves, the reign in the Empire and its prospective warlords. Perhaps if they stayed allied and retained control of the Moff Council and the Grand Admirals, they might have a chance, but when the time came to choose another Emperor, civil war would likely erupt anyways. Without Palpatine or Vader, the Empire is effectively dead.

Noble Ire wrote:Neither Sate nor anyone else in the Emperor's ruling circle have the political clout, at least by themselves, the reign in the Empire and its prospective warlords. Perhaps if they stayed allied and retained control of the Moff Council and the Grand Admirals, they might have a chance, but when the time came to choose another Emperor, civil war would likely erupt anyways. Without Palpatine or Vader, the Empire is effectively dead.

Judging by context, Sate is one of the Emperor's most important administrators. In which case Ire is right, if he had the clout to do it he would have taken control of the Empire when the Palpatine and Vader died the first time around.

Sate tried to do exactly that in the canon universe. Then Ysanne Isard bitchslapped him. Sate is nothing but a beurocratic fop.

How many grand admirals were NOT at Endor? IIRC except for Thrawn all the good ones were there. Grant might be able to make a go of it, I'm not really sure about the others.

Pestage had the official clout, but simply put he didn't have the public gravitas to keep the Empire together. Neither did Dangor, nor Isard, nor any of the Grand Admirals or Moffs, nor Vader or anyone else. The Empire was essentially designed to fall apart without Palpatine-- as Voren Na'al put it, "only the Emperor could rule the Empire."

Actually, Vader was very popular with the armed forces. He could have probably offed Palps and taken over.

Thrawn, well my scenario has him reconquering the Empire after it falls apart. That is, if he isn't killed by his own arrogance this time around. It is considerably different than taking over after Palpatine dies.

000 wrote:Pestage had the official clout, but simply put he didn't have the public gravitas to keep the Empire together. Neither did Dangor, nor Isard, nor any of the Grand Admirals or Moffs, nor Vader or anyone else. The Empire was essentially designed to fall apart without Palpatine-- as Voren Na'al put it, "only the Emperor could rule the Empire."

Which is a quote from a biased source and therefore does not mean much. We know that the moffs all supported Thrawn when he came back, we know that Isard was able to hold on for control through sheer terror (remarkable for a person of her strategic ineptitude), and we all know that several warlords (Zaarin, Zsinji, Teradoc) as well as the Imperial Interim Ruling Council all managed to hold their own despite Palpatines alleged interference/plans/schemes. Therefore, whoever is not a coward (Pestage) or Idiot (Isard) should actually find it much easier to hold on to power.

Plus, with the rebels gone (as the OP says) there will not be any guerrilla war waiting to be fought, which frees up resources to be used on any power hungry upstarts.

Oh, and as Nom Anor himself stated, a unified Empire would have stomped the Vong. Massive BDZ comes to mind.

With the Empire falling apart Bakura would likely fall to the Ssi Ruuk and they may make a move to attack the rest of the galaxy in light of the Empire falling apart.

However, if they attack openly they may very well bind the Empire together under the new threat, much like the Yuuzhan Vong invasion might later.

The Empire still has a massive powerbase under it and with the elimination of a good portion of the Rebellion Command then its possible that the Empire will not have to worry about them anymore.

If they do then:
Admiral Daala with the Sun Crusher and proto type Death Star
Isard with the Lusankaya
Guy with the Iron Fist

If a full scale powerbattle occurs between Imperials then with toys like those it could be a rather messy fight for the entire galaxy.

PREDATOR490 wrote:With the Empire falling apart Bakura would likely fall to the Ssi Ruuk and they may make a move to attack the rest of the galaxy in light of the Empire falling apart.

However, if they attack openly they may very well bind the Empire together under the new threat, much like the Yuuzhan Vong invasion might later.

The Ssi Ruuk would still be at war with the Empire of the Hand, and would still be crushed by them.

Adrian Laguna wrote:Actually, Vader was very popular with the armed forces.

Is there a source for this? In the Marvel comics there was an ongoing subplot regarding Vader being hated by members of the regular Imperial military (including a plot to assassinate him).

Vader wasn't popular with the armed forces in general-- he was popular with the Stormtroopers, and likely (albeit non-canonically) the Army as well. A champion of the common soldier, if you will, since he liked getting down-and-dirty with them. He was disliked among the Navy for the most part and all but loathed by the senior officer corps. And, of course, he had plenty of enemies in the Emperor's court due to his position and lack of a background. Thrawn wasn't liked by the Moffs so much as viewed as a useful figurehead-- granted, he was apparently much liked by the military (at least the Navy) and citizenry at large-- although it's notable that the few Army officers seen don't appear to have any particular love for him-- but it's impossible to tell how well his rule would have gone in peacetime and without an external enemy. We only ever see him as a military, rather than civil leader. Isard-- the woman 'ruled' the Empire because she was in control of Imperial Center, and she passed herself off as Stewardess rather than an actual Empress. During her 'rule' the Empire essentially fell apart, and once she gave up Imperial Center she was finished. The truth is that the Empire cannot be ruled by anyone but Palpatine without a massive restructuring-- at which point it isn't really the Empire anymore, is it?

Oh yeah, and I'm well aware Na'al is as biased as they come-- but that quote is true, and sounds good to boot.

Crossroads Inc. wrote: No more stupid plotdevices or Deus exs! no more whinny brats or horribly over wanked powers! No more stupid mystical mumbo jumbo. The galaxy instead comes down to just Real men baby! (and women, you know)

No the Witchs of Dathomire are still there. Plus Jo'rrus the craaazy clone Master is still running around. Dark side wins by default. But most of the evil Jedi's are planetbound and Jo'rrus does not give two @#$@$ about the rest of the galaxy since Thrawn has nothing to offer him now aside from any force sensative children that come around and the Witchs could @$ him over hard core if the two of them fought.

Another point, wouldn't all the toys like the galaxy guns the eclipse and soveriegn class dreadnuaghts be still around. Without luke to blow them up later the vong would have difficulty against that.

000 wrote:Vader wasn't popular with the armed forces in general-- he was popular with the Stormtroopers, and likely (albeit non-canonically) the Army as well. A champion of the common soldier, if you will, since he liked getting down-and-dirty with them. He was disliked among the Navy for the most part and all but loathed by the senior officer corps. And, of course, he had plenty of enemies in the Emperor's court due to his position and lack of a background.

Vader was still feared and obeyed, though. Besides, the OP states that the whole Endor system is gone - including Vader.

Thrawn wasn't liked by the Moffs so much as viewed as a useful figurehead-- granted, he was apparently much liked by the military (at least the Navy) and citizenry at large-- although it's notable that the few Army officers seen don't appear to have any particular love for him-- but it's impossible to tell how well his rule would have gone in peacetime and without an external enemy. We only ever see him as a military, rather than civil leader.

Nevertheless, they gave him their full support, and the moffs willingly handed over power to him. With the fleet backing him, the moffs would have no choice but to support him.

Isard-- the woman 'ruled' the Empire because she was in control of Imperial Center, and she passed herself off as Stewardess rather than an actual Empress. During her 'rule' the Empire essentially fell apart, and once she gave up Imperial Center she was finished.

This strategic ineptitude does not change the fact that she managed to hold on to her power during her time at Imperial Center, even though it is most likely she would have been overthrown at some time.

The truth is that the Empire cannot be ruled by anyone but Palpatine without a massive restructuring-- at which point it isn't really the Empire anymore, is it?
Oh yeah, and I'm well aware Na'al is as biased as they come-- but that quote is true, and sounds good to boot.

Wrong. There are numerous examples of people who managed to control the empire without major restructuring - see the Imperial Interim Ruling Council for that, Isards reign (which lasted several years, although she had to deal with the moffs rebelling and the various warlords), Thrawn, and of course Burr Nolyds.

LeftWingExtremist wrote:Another point, wouldn't all the toys like the galaxy guns the eclipse and soveriegn class dreadnuaghts be still around. Without luke to blow them up later the vong would have difficulty against that.

Luke didn't blow them up. The status of the sovereigns is unknown, though they were most likely destroyed before being combat-ready.

Adrian Laguna wrote:Actually, Vader was very popular with the armed forces. He could have probably offed Palps and taken over.

Thrawn, well my scenario has him reconquering the Empire after it falls apart. That is, if he isn't killed by his own arrogance this time around. It is considerably different than taking over after Palpatine dies.

this is like the third time you spoke of Thrawns arrogance
What arrogance?

He was a tactical mastermind and he became powerful for that
He was only killed when the best assassins in the galaxy killed him nothing more. It was in the middle of a battle the Noghri came aboard and killed him. He defended himself by placing Ysalamiri(sp?) around him thinking/knowing his greatest enemy was the Jedi. Then some non force assassin comes along and offs him
No fault in arrogance there my friend

Oh and the Rebellion will be effectively immobile but not extinct
somewhere i remember hearing (i think the OT director commentaries) that we just so happen to be following this merry little band of the rebel alliance around in the movies. Most of the Rebel Alliance was at the battle of Endor but not all of them, that would be foolish and the guerilla strike alliance is not that stupid

Adrian Laguna wrote:Thrawn, well my scenario has him reconquering the Empire after it falls apart. That is, if he isn't killed by his own arrogance this time around. It is considerably different than taking over after Palpatine dies.

Technically what killed him was "Lady Vader" Leia turning the Noghri against him. But since she (and her brother, and Vader himself for that matter) are now gone, he's not going to have that problem anymore.

I don't remember any other real "blind spot" he had waiting to come kill him besides his (apparent) trust of the Noghri.

And if you want to bring up the DE Sourcebook thing about Palpatine planning his death, well, he's gone too and the OP says no more clones, so he's safe from that angle too.

Tychu wrote: this is like the third time you spoke of Thrawns arrogance
What arrogance?

He was a tactical mastermind and he became powerful for that
He was only killed when the best assassins in the galaxy killed him nothing more. It was in the middle of a battle the Noghri came aboard and killed him. He defended himself by placing Ysalamiri(sp?) around him thinking/knowing his greatest enemy was the Jedi. Then some non force assassin comes along and offs him
No fault in arrogance there my friend

I've never actually read the Thrawn trilogy. The arrogance comment was because I was under the impression that the Noghri were some people he forcibly brought under his rule. Because of arrogance, he underestimated them, and died. You know the old saying, Pride goeth before the Fall. Unfortunately, it appears I am incorrect in that impression.

Oh and the Rebellion will be effectively immobile but not extinct
somewhere i remember hearing (i think the OT director commentaries) that we just so happen to be following this merry little band of the rebel alliance around in the movies. Most of the Rebel Alliance was at the battle of Endor but not all of them, that would be foolish and the guerilla strike alliance is not that stupid

I am aware of that, but with the loss of their main fleet, they are effectively powerless. They lost all their living Deus Ex Machinas, so there will be no fortunate series of lucky coincidences to give them even a snowball's chance in hell of making it. They are now merely an annoyance to the Moffs and Warlords.

Rogue Ice wrote:Technically what killed him was "Lady Vader" Leia turning the Noghri against him. But since she (and her brother, and Vader himself for that matter) are now gone, he's not going to have that problem anymore.

Alright, then the answer to the OP is that Thrawn takes over all after some serious fighting. Assuming he is either a competent administrator, or can delegate to those that are, then the Empire will curbstomp the Vong invasion so hard it's not funny. If you're a Vong that is.

Adrian Laguna wrote:

Tychu wrote: this is like the third time you spoke of Thrawns arrogance
What arrogance?

He was a tactical mastermind and he became powerful for that
He was only killed when the best assassins in the galaxy killed him nothing more. It was in the middle of a battle the Noghri came aboard and killed him. He defended himself by placing Ysalamiri(sp?) around him thinking/knowing his greatest enemy was the Jedi. Then some non force assassin comes along and offs him
No fault in arrogance there my friend

I've never actually read the Thrawn trilogy. The arrogance comment was because I was under the impression that the Noghri were some people he forcibly brought under his rule. Because of arrogance, he underestimated them, and died. You know the old saying, Pride goeth before the Fall. Unfortunately, it appears I am incorrect in that impression.

While you may not have read it...the statement you protrayed is true and Tychu is leaving out ...that THRAWN KNEW THE REAL REASON he had the Nogri. And his personal Noghri was always there Tychu, not coming on in the battle. He knew the Noghri had met with Leia, he knew a whole host of facts...and in the end, he deluded himself to never think they wouldn't contact their assassin in Thrawn's presence.

So while you didn't read it, you comprehended his fall far better then dumbass who left out pertintent facts and mislead a whole bunch of red herrings.